Il giorno dom, 13/03/2011 alle 18.15 -0400, Felix Miata ha scritto:

On 2011/03/13 23:01 (GMT+0300) Ilya Chernykh composed:

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So far reported 16.

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Here is the list: https://bugzilla.novell.com/buglist.cgi?emailreporter1=1&classification=openSUSE&emailtype1=substring&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=REOPENED&email1=neptunia%40mail.ru&product=openSUSE11.4

That URL produces zarro boogs here. If I strip out your email address editing that search, the result is more than 800 boogs. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/

You shall put a space between openSUSE and 11.4, then the 16 bugs reported by Ilya appear magically ;-) P.S. Too many bug reports, perhaps should be better awaiting a bit more for a GM release. Anyway I'm enjoying 11.4, also with some minor issues! Cheers, -- opensuse 11.4 Celadon - Linux 2.6.37.1-1.2-desktop x86_64 AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology MK-36 - GeForce Go 6150 Gnome 2.32.1

On Monday 14 March 2011 02:15:46 Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

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Here is the list: https://bugzilla.novell.com/buglist.cgi?emailreporter1=1&classification=o penSUSE&emailtype1=substring&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_stat us=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=REOPENED&email1=neptunia%40mail .ru&product=openSUSE 11.4

In my impression 11.4 is a huge step backwards compared to 11.3. Is it possible to somehow revert to the previous version?

Try a clean install of 11.4. I mean, "zypper refresh" works, as also does osc!!

From 11.4 repo do not. And no, I do not want 11.4 at all with 11.3 I had no problems. With 11.4 I have lots. First of all they broke Gnome. I do not like it. They broke Gnome, broke Yast, broke QtCurve, broke KDE3, broke OpenOffice.

Also, it's easier to get answers if you assign the bug to the relevant dev. zypper problems should be assigned to component "libzypp" (OK, probably could use a better name), so it's automatically assigned to zypp-maintainers.

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On Monday 14 March 2011 05:36:19 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

Don't you know what is with Gnome's menus? I have only one level of folding after update which creates mess :-(.

On the other hand it seems the feature for full menus was not removed: when I run gnome-panel from KDE3 session the menus displayed well.

OK. I repaired it by deleting /etc/xdg/gnome-applications.menu Just by guessing. But it worked. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 09:36, Vincent Untz wrote:

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Don't you know what is with Gnome's menus? I have only one level of folding after update which creates mess :-(.

Yes, that's a design decision of the GNOME team. For years, we've been unhappy with the deep-nested menus we had and wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream.

FWIW, you can change this by unsetting the XDG_MENU_PREFIX environment variable -- this is being set in /usr/bin/gnome.

Just an additional comment to this... other Gnome-centric distros (I'm thinking of Ubuntu here) are also one level only in the Gnome menus. One person's mess is another person's good thing :-) C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 14:08 +0300, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

On Monday 14 March 2011 11:42:07 C wrote:

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Don't you know what is with Gnome's menus? I have only one level of folding after update which creates mess :-(.

Yes, that's a design decision of the GNOME team. For years, we've been unhappy with the deep-nested menus we had and wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream.

FWIW, you can change this by unsetting the XDG_MENU_PREFIX environment variable -- this is being set in /usr/bin/gnome.

Just an additional comment to this... other Gnome-centric distros (I'm thinking of Ubuntu here) are also one level only in the Gnome menus.

One person's mess is another person's good thing :-)

If this is done to be similar to Ubuntu, then it makes little sense: Ubuntu made many bad UI decisions which forced me to change the distro.

As you know in Windows the applications menu is not categorized, and this is not its advantage, it is their problem: with all entries put in one place you need to scroll much (in Windows they have scrollbars, in Gnome there is none), menu search etc.

Probably this change was made to copy Windows behavior in Windows 7 but one should take into account that one menu for all apps with scrolling for Windows was a forced solution because they unlike Linux have no menu categories. It is unreasonable to blindly copy anything.

In my first mail, I said "we wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream" (see quote above). This has nothing to do with Ubuntu, Windows, or whatever. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 14:26 +0300, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

On Monday 14 March 2011 14:23:56 Vincent Untz wrote:

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In my first mail, I said "we wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream" (see quote above). This has nothing to do with Ubuntu, Windows, or whatever.

Is not it is you who is upstream? :-)

Yes, I'm upstream for that relevant part of the code, but I'm not the one who designed the menu structure upstream. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 16:24 +0300, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

On Monday 14 March 2011 14:42:46 Vincent Untz wrote:

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In my first mail, I said "we wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream" (see quote above). This has nothing to do with Ubuntu, Windows, or whatever.

Is not it is you who is upstream? :-)

Yes, I'm upstream for that relevant part of the code, but I'm not the one who designed the menu structure upstream.

By the way, is not it possible to add a GConf key which would determine the menu structure?

No, but there are two ways to do this: + the XDG_MENU_PREFIX environment variable, as already mentiond. + Create files in ~/.config/menus/. Actually, an easy way to achieve what you want is probably this: run alacarte, edit ~/.config/menus/gnome-applications.menu and change the reference to /etc/xdg/menus/gnome-applications.menu to a reference to /etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 18:01 +0300, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

On Monday 14 March 2011 17:54:51 Vincent Untz wrote:

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Is not it is you who is upstream? :-)

Yes, I'm upstream for that relevant part of the code, but I'm not the one who designed the menu structure upstream.

By the way, is not it possible to add a GConf key which would determine the menu structure?

No

Why?

Because I already mentioned two ways to achieve what you want. My mail was not a simple "no". A gconf key would make sense if, say, more than 10% of people would want to change this setting. And I doubt this is the case. I suggest we either continue this discussion on opensuse-gnome, or privately. I'm nearly sure that most people on opensuse-factory are not interested in it. Thanks, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 14 March 2011 14:35:21 C wrote:

I also did not state that this was anything at all to do with being like Ubuntu or that we should be like Ubuntu... nor did I speculate anything about trying to be like Windows 7.

Anyway a tendency to copy from Windows and MacOS even their disadvantages or other things which are specific for their circumstances is prominent. Just some examples. - Microsoft was under pressure from anti-trust bodies to remove IE from their operating system. To justify the presence of IE in Windows they decided to tightly integrate IE with Windows Explorer in Win98 thus making the Explorer a universal tool which can serve as browser and as a file manager. This decision was copied by KDE which made Konqueror a universal tool with capabilities of browser and file manager. Now to make option to uninstall IE to comply the demands of anti-trust bodies, Microsoft decided to separate the file manager from the browser. The KDE team followed the suite, and even claims that this is a good decision from a design perspective and that attempts to make a combine from Konqueror was a fault. - Windows has no desktop menu categories unlike Linux, so with the growth of the number of installed applications users had uncontrolled growth and mess in their Applications menu. So Microsoft decided to re-design the menu, to add the scrollbar and the search field. These changes were copied by SUSE in the form of Kickoff and included in both KDE and Gnome despite the underlying reason for such menu design is Windows-specific, i.e., the lack of categorization. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 14 March 2011 11:36:41 Vincent Untz wrote:

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Try a clean install of 11.4. I mean, "zypper refresh" works, as also does osc!!

Also, it's easier to get answers if you assign the bug to the relevant dev. zypper problems should be assigned to component "libzypp" (OK, probably could use a better name), so it's automatically assigned to zypp-maintainers.

Don't you know what is with Gnome's menus? I have only one level of folding after update which creates mess :-(.

Yes, that's a design decision of the GNOME team. For years, we've been unhappy with the deep-nested menus we had and wanted a menu structure similar to the one from upstream.

I think this is completely catastrophic decision: the number of applications rises and as it raises the better categorization is needed. This change brought complete messy junkyard in the menus. Besides impossibility to determine an application's function and to find what you want, it also puts so many entries in each menu that you have to scroll several screens just to see each entry.

FWIW, you can change this by unsetting the XDG_MENU_PREFIX environment variable -- this is being set in /usr/bin/gnome.

I have tried this but without success. After changing XDG_MENU_PREFIX the menus are the same. But the removal of the gnome-applications.menu helped. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 14 March 2011 14:02:08 Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

Design decisions are always in favor of some and are alienating somebody else. This is a sad fact, on the other hand it's nice and shows individualism of humans. We do luckily like different thins.

I disagree. There are good design decisions and bad ones. And if there was no difference, then why at all do any design at all? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 12:04 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega a écrit :

Vincent, #678990 probably has to do with the remove of gtk-update-icon-cache from SuSEconfig? In the forum other people complained about missing icons in Gnome. The move was quite late. And even if you changed most of the Gnome packages in the last minute probably most other apps don't use your new macros.

The move itself wasn't quite late: Wed Aug 25 21:50:25 CEST 2010 - vuntz@opensuse.org - Remove the remaining part of SuSEconfig.gtk2: the icon theme cache updating mechanism is now handled directly by all appropriate packages. (fixing our gnome packages was late, though)

I don't use Gnome. But if the problem is really common perhaps would make sense to readd it in an update?

The thing is that the issue was already present earlier anyway, if people were using zypper (or anything else) instead of yast. So adding it back won't solve the issue in all cases. But we can indeed add this back in an online update if people think that'd help for 11.4. I'd just move the script to hicolor-icon-theme instead. I'm open to that if that's a big issue in 11.4. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Vincent Untz [2011-03-14 12:26]:

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 12:22 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :

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Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 12:04 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega a écrit :

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Vincent, #678990 probably has to do with the remove of gtk-update-icon-cache from SuSEconfig? In the forum other people complained about missing icons in Gnome.

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But we can indeed add this back in an online update if people think that'd help for 11.4. I'd just move the script to hicolor-icon-theme instead. I'm open to that if that's a big issue in 11.4.

Sorry, I sent the mail too fast. I'd appreciate if someone could take time to look at the forums to see how frequent this issue is, and for what kind of apps this happens. This will help us decide if the online update is the best way to proceed.

For example, none of the packages in X11:lxde update desktop/icon caches in 11.4, I'll fix that now for Factory. Have you checked packages in other develoment projects apart from GNOME:* and X11:xfce? -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Ilya Chernykh [2011-03-14 14:13]:

On Monday 14 March 2011 16:01:31 Guido Berhoerster wrote:

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For example, none of the packages in X11:lxde update desktop/icon caches in 11.4, I'll fix that now for Factory. Have you checked packages in other develoment projects apart from GNOME:* and X11:xfce?

And what about non-GTK projects? Should packages in KDE:KDE3, for example, also be modified?

It affects all packages installing themable icons and/or desktop files. The sane way would be to have that automatically handled by a trigger in RPM, I'm not up-to-date wheter the rpm version we use is actually capable of that yet. Currently there's not even a rpmlint warning which may explain why hardly anyone seems to be aware of this issue. (I also don't think the previous SuSEConfig solution was any better or should be revived.) -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Cristian Morales Vega [2011-03-14 16:29]:

2011/3/14 Guido Berhoerster :

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The sane way would be to have that automatically handled by a trigger in RPM, I'm not up-to-date wheter the rpm version we use is actually capable of that yet. Currently there's not even a

The RPM 4.8.0 that there is in Base:System isn't. But RPM 4.9, released two weeks ago, perhaps is: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-packaging/2011-03/msg00050.html

Thanks for the pointer, the "collections" feature seems to be badly needed, per-package triggers are probably prohibitively expensive. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Vincent Untz [2011-03-14 15:58]:

Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 14:01 +0100, Guido Berhoerster a écrit :

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* Vincent Untz [2011-03-14 12:26]:

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Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 12:22 +0100, Vincent Untz a écrit :

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Le lundi 14 mars 2011, à 12:04 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega a écrit :

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Vincent, #678990 probably has to do with the remove of gtk-update-icon-cache from SuSEconfig? In the forum other people complained about missing icons in Gnome.

[...]

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But we can indeed add this back in an online update if people think that'd help for 11.4. I'd just move the script to hicolor-icon-theme instead. I'm open to that if that's a big issue in 11.4.

Sorry, I sent the mail too fast. I'd appreciate if someone could take time to look at the forums to see how frequent this issue is, and for what kind of apps this happens. This will help us decide if the online update is the best way to proceed.

For example, none of the packages in X11:lxde update desktop/icon caches in 11.4, I'll fix that now for Factory. Have you checked packages in other develoment projects apart from GNOME:* and X11:xfce?

I haven't -- that's just too many packages to check, really. There was clearly a failure on my side to properly announce this change, since even though it happened early in the development cycle, nobody noticed and fixed things :/

Does that mean that LXDE is broken by default? If yes, then we should really just go ahead and add back a SuSEconfig script to mitigate the issue on 11.4.

None of the packages from X11:lxde or KDE:Distro:Factory use %desktop_database_post/un and %icon_theme_cache_post/un, I haven't checked others yet. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org