[opensuse-factory] Feature #308284: Ship openSUSE 11.2
Hi, I want to play the voting game one last time for 11.2. For 11.1 many complained that the quality was too bad to ship. For 11.2 I want to test something: collect your votes. I created https://features.opensuse.org/308284 so we can hear your oppinion. Please do not comment +1, but use the comments for real arguments. And note that I can't say if this works this way. We have to try - this is in no way binding, but if the voting comes out to be seriously negative, I promise we will not ship. If you want to test: the live and net isos are under http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ (as usual) and the 11.2 repo is uptodate. DVDs I can't offer at this point. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 November 2009 15:09:25 Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
I want to play the voting game one last time for 11.2. For 11.1 many complained that the quality was too bad to ship. For 11.2 I want to test something: collect your votes. I created
https://features.opensuse.org/308284
so we can hear your oppinion. Please do not comment +1, but use the comments for real arguments.
And note that I can't say if this works this way. We have to try - this is in no way binding, but if the voting comes out to be seriously negative, I promise we will not ship.
If you want to test: the live and net isos are under http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ (as usual) and the 11.2 repo is uptodate. DVDs I can't offer at this point.
Note that a couple of bugs have been fixed since RC2, you can check the 11.2 repo or the checking mails (opensuse-commit mailing list archive on lists.opensuse.org), Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:09:25 +0100
Stephan Kulow
If you want to test: the live and net isos are under http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ (as usual) and the 11.2 repo is uptodate. DVDs I can't offer at this point.
Could we then also bring FACTORY up to date? I'd really like to test, but I can't get any relevant updates since over a week: strolchi:~ # zypper lr -d # | Alias | Name | Enabled | Refresh | Priority | Type | URI | Service --+--------------------+--------------------+---------+---------+----------+--------+----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-------- 1 | Contrib | Contrib | Yes | No | 99 | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/openSUSE:Factory:Contrib/standard | 2 | KDE4:Factory | KDE4:Factory | Yes | Yes | 99 | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE4:/Factory:/Desktop/openSU... | 3 | Videolan-repo | Videolan-repo | Yes | Yes | 99 | rpm-md | http://download.videolan.org/pub/videolan/vlc/SuSE/11.2/ | 4 | factory-debug-oss | factory-debug-oss | Yes | No | 99 | yast2 | http://download.opensuse.org/debug/factory/repo/oss/ | 5 | factory-non-oss | factory-non-oss | Yes | Yes | 99 | yast2 | http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/non-oss/ | 6 | factory-oss | factory-oss | Yes | Yes | 99 | yast2 | http://download.opensuse.org/factory/repo/oss/ | 7 | home:seife:testing | home:seife:testing | Yes | Yes | 99 | rpm-md | http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/seife:/testing/openSUSE_Fact... | 8 | packman-factory | packman-factory | Yes | Yes | 99 | rpm-md | http://ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/mirrors/packman/suse/factory | strolchi:~ # zypper dup Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Computing distribution upgrade... The following packages are going to be upgraded: bluez bluez-test libbluetooth3 libfaad0 libmp4v2-0 libvlc2 libvlccore2 libx264-78 vlc vlc-gnome vlc-noX vlc-qt The following package is going to change vendor: libx264-78 Packman -> VideoLAN Project (http://www.videolan.org) 12 packages to upgrade, 1 to change vendor. Overall download size: 9.5 MiB. After the operation, additional 177.0 KiB will be used. Continue? [y/n/?] (y): n -- Stefan Seyfried "Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time." --Linus Torvalds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Seyfried pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:09:25 +0100 Stephan Kulow
wrote: If you want to test: the live and net isos are under http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ (as usual) and the 11.2 repo is uptodate. DVDs I can't offer at this point.
Could we then also bring FACTORY up to date? I'd really like to test, but I can't get any relevant updates since over a week:
Why? Just use the correct repos for 11.2. And _no_ factory <> 11.2 anymore. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 November 2009 18:36:29 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
Stefan Seyfried pecked at the keyboard and wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 15:09:25 +0100
Stephan Kulow
wrote: If you want to test: the live and net isos are under http://download.opensuse.org/factory/iso/ (as usual) and the 11.2 repo is uptodate. DVDs I can't offer at this point.
Could we then also bring FACTORY up to date? I'd really like to test, but I can't get any relevant updates since over a week:
Why? Just use the correct repos for 11.2. And _no_ factory <> 11.2 anymore.
I think you'll find Stefan wants to have the latest packages. i.e. later than those frozen in 11.2 Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 18:43:32 +0100
Anders Johansson
Why? Just use the correct repos for 11.2. And _no_ factory <> 11.2 anymore.
I do not want to install 11.2 - I want to keep FACTORY (means: I want to have newer packages ASAP after 11.2). If I now switch to 11.2, I will stay at the outdated stuff or I will have to switch repos again, which is painful IMHO.
I think you'll find Stefan wants to have the latest packages. i.e. later than those frozen in 11.2
Realistically, I expect that there is nothing new checked into FACTORY right now, but I at least expect FACTORY to be at the same level as 11.2 and not older. (And yes, a recent kernel, without security holes, would be nice. It really is a pity that the FACTORY users are kept insecure deliberately.) -- Stefan Seyfried "Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time." --Linus Torvalds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stefan Seyfried wrote:
I do not want to install 11.2 - I want to keep FACTORY (means: I want to have newer packages ASAP after 11.2). If I now switch to 11.2, I will stay at the outdated stuff or I will have to switch repos again, which is painful IMHO
The purpose of Factory is not to have all the newest packages, it is to begin creating the next release. openSUSE is and will remain for the foreseeable future a release-focused distribution. Either wait a few weeks or if you want rolling updates so badly look at Arch or something.
Realistically, I expect that there is nothing new checked into FACTORY right now, but I at least expect FACTORY to be at the same level as 11.2 and not older. (And yes, a recent kernel, without security holes, would be nice. It really is a pity that the FACTORY users are kept insecure deliberately.)
The changes that went into 11.2 at the last minute will be synced back out to Factory, just hold on, give the team a chance to release 11.2 then they will come back and look at such things. Saying they are keeping Factory users deliberately insecure is disingenuous at best and quite unfair, please respect the fact that a release takes up 100% of people's time. Regards, MasterPatricko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 04 November 2009, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
I think you'll find Stefan wants to have the latest packages. i.e. later than those frozen in 11.2 Realistically, I expect that there is nothing new checked into FACTORY right now, but I at least expect FACTORY to be at the same level as 11.2 and not older. (And yes, a recent kernel, without security holes, would be nice. It really is a pity that the FACTORY users are kept insecure deliberately.)
11.2 and Factory have major differences currently, and hundreds of packages fail to build. publishing is currently disabled until things are somewhat stable again. You're free to help with fixing :-) Greetings, Dirk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:02:46 +0100
Dirk Müller
You're free to help with fixing :-)
Might be a stupid question. But anyway. How? I tried to get the "build Status" from the web frontend for openSUSE:Factory, but all I get is a "gateway Timeout". So I cannot even see what's not building. Is there some osc magic to get the list? I might at least try to fix the easy ones. -- Stefan Seyfried "Praktische Erfahrung ist viel Wert. Nur mal davon gehört zu haben, daß etwas nicht funktioniert, ist eine Sache - den GNOME Dateidialog selbst benutzt haben zu müssen, eine ganz andere." -- Steffen Winterfeldt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 05 November 2009 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 00:02:46 +0100
Dirk Müller
wrote: You're free to help with fixing :-)
Might be a stupid question. But anyway.
How? I tried to get the "build Status" from the web frontend for openSUSE:Factory, but all I get is a "gateway Timeout".
So I cannot even see what's not building.
Is there some osc magic to get the list? I might at least try to fix the easy ones.
I try to update http://www.suse.de/~coolo/factory-status.html as often as possible with comments on what broke things. Right now perl 5.10.1's test suite changes and sqlite3 update broke most things. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/11/5 Stephan Kulow
I try to update http://www.suse.de/~coolo/factory-status.html as often as possible with comments on what broke things.
Resisted commenting up to now to keep "chatter" down, but I see the vote is now closed! The 11.2RC's look better to me than both 10.3 & 11.1 GM, and I see most Fate voters were favorable : https://features.opensuse.org/308284 - SK - "OK, voting closed. Thanks everyone for the support, we'll do build 348 as GM today. Build347 -> Build348's only change is to change the driverupdate url to 11.2, which was left unnoticed but due to the discussion about the repair system I took notice. So having this feature helped." Let's just hope the GM mastering goes smoother than last year! Stephan, I would like to say thanks not only for listening but by acting on it, which is shown by things like the Factory status page, and the Fate vote. As one of those who became disenchanted with the 11.1 release state and frustrated like others by quality issues and slow progress for known issues found by Factory testers. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi,
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Just use the correct repos for 11.2.
Which one is that? Atm, http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2 still 404's ... Do you mean http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2-RC2/ ? Thanks, BenDJ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 November 2009 18:52:39 Ben DJ wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
wrote: Just use the correct repos for 11.2.
Which one is that?
Atm, http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2 still 404's ... Do
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss is the 11.2 repo Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Stephan Kulow
Atm, http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2 still 404's ... Do
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss is the 11.2 repo
So the parent doesn't work. Well, OK. http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/oss -> OK, redirects to http://download.opensuse.org/factory-snapshot/repo/oss/ http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/non-oss -> OK, redirects to http://download.opensuse.org/factory-snapshot/repo/non-oss/ listing @ http://download.opensuse.org/factory-snapshot/repo [DIR] debug/ 03-Nov-2009 09:10 - [DIR] non-oss/ 02-Nov-2009 22:46 - [DIR] oss/ 03-Nov-2009 09:10 - [DIR] source-non-oss/ 02-Nov-2009 22:46 - [DIR] source/ 03-Nov-2009 09:10 - http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/debug -> 404 http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/source -> 404 http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.2/repo/source-non-oss -> 404 Can those three maybe get properly redirected as well? This is _VERY_ confusing. BenDJ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I want to play the voting game one last time for 11.2. For 11.1 many complained that the quality was too bad to ship. For 11.2 I want to test something: collect your votes. I created
I voted no, but didn't get a change to comment.... Bug 548993 is one I'd consider a showstopper bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 Grub cannot find ANY other installed Linux. This is a really serious bug... one that, if it's allowed to be in the final release, will REALLY make openSUSE look bad. When you install 11.2 on a system with other Linux versions already installed, the 11.2 installer cannot find them or configure Grub correctly, and you end up with a Grub that knows only 11.2. You cannot booth the other installed OSes unless you run a repair/recover from one of the other installed Linux versions' install DVD. At this point.. we are going to ship 11.2 with this "feature"! For me... it doesen't bother me on my own hardware as I run only openSUSE, and will be using only 11.2. For anyoen else.. especially those who are considering using openSUSE, or those who need to use multiple installs.. we're going to look so so so bad when they run into this :-( As I said in the bug report, I'd call this one a release blocker bug if I was the release manager. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Clayton write:
I want to play the voting game one last time for 11.2. For 11.1 many complained that the quality was too bad to ship. For 11.2 I want to test something: collect your votes. I created
I voted no, but didn't get a change to comment.... Bug 548993 is one I'd consider a showstopper bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 Grub cannot find ANY other installed Linux. This is a really serious bug... one that, if it's allowed to be in the final release, will REALLY make openSUSE look bad. When you install 11.2 on a system with other Linux versions already installed, the 11.2 installer cannot find them or configure Grub correctly, and you end up with a Grub that knows only 11.2. You cannot booth the other installed OSes unless you run a repair/recover from one of the other installed Linux versions' install DVD. At this point.. we are going to ship 11.2 with this "feature"!
For me... it doesen't bother me on my own hardware as I run only openSUSE, and will be using only 11.2. For anyoen else.. especially those who are considering using openSUSE, or those who need to use multiple installs.. we're going to look so so so bad when they run into this :-(
As I said in the bug report, I'd call this one a release blocker bug if I was the release manager.
C.
Hi, I agree with you that it is regression and annoying. Problem is that it is found too late in release process and boot is quite sensitive and complex to do it properly (you can look at it in yast svn how we propose sections- http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/bootloader/src/modules/BootGRUB.ycp function CreateSections). So if we wait until this bug is fixed and also properly tested (just imagine possible combination of supported boot scenarios on different raids and partitions) it takes really serious time which delay 11.2 for more then month or two. Of course another problem described by Jozef in bug is that other distributions change and we don't have enough time to test it ( our priority is at first boot opensuse, then successful boot after update and then cooperate with other operation systems ). Our resources is limited, but I promise that if you send patch which fix problem I review it and send comments (or add it immediately if it is good enough). Josef -- Josef Reidinger YaST team maintainer of perl-Bootloader, YaST2-Repair, webyast modules language and time -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I agree with you that it is regression and annoying. Problem is that it is found too late in release process and boot is quite sensitive and complex to do it properly (you can look at it in yast svn how we propose sections- http://svn.opensuse.org/svn/yast/trunk/bootloader/src/modules/BootGRUB.ycp function CreateSections). So if we wait until this bug is fixed and also properly tested (just imagine possible combination of supported boot scenarios on different raids and partitions) it takes really serious time which delay 11.2 for more then month or two. Of course another problem described by Jozef in bug is that other distributions change and we don't have enough time to test it ( our priority is at first boot opensuse, then successful boot after update and then cooperate with other operation systems ). Our resources is limited, but I promise that if you send patch which fix problem I review it and send comments (or add it immediately if it is good enough).
Unfortunately I am not skilled with Grub at all. Producing a patch that woudl have any chance of actually working and not breaking things further is.. well.. not something I can do :-( I understand the scope of the problem.. and it's a big one... to make a fundamental change late in the dev process. It reminds me of other releases that were put out with late changes... the intro of the whole beginning of zypper comes to mind as a prime example of how wrong that can go. We (as openSUSE) really took a beating on that one.. and still hold some bad vibes for it with many people. Sadly, I have a feeling something similar will happen when testers, media etc pop in 11.2 to "try it out" and they run into this bug. For me, I'm OK with making my point, raising my voice and pointing at the problem. If the decision is made to go ahead with the release anyway... so be it, but we need to have the buckets ready to handle the flaming. :-( C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:44 AM, Clayton
I voted no, but didn't get a change to comment.... Bug 548993 is one I'd consider a showstopper bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=548993 Grub cannot find ANY other installed Linux.
I have never seen a Fedora or Ubuntu release which could boot an openSUSE installation either (Things may have changed with this year's versions, but I have not bothered trying them as yet.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I have never seen a Fedora or Ubuntu release which could boot an openSUSE installation either (Things may have changed with this year's versions, but I have not bothered trying them as yet.)
Really? Interesting. I've done many mutiboot installs, and they've always worked... even with 6 or 8 different Linux versions. Each successive install was able to "find" the previous and in the end the last install had a kind of "master" Grub. In my case that last install was always openSUSE since I prefer the Grub menu we have to others. Anyway, those that are responsible for the Grub fixes have stated that this situation isn't going to change for the 11.2 release - I understand the reasoning... I don't agree with the decision, but hey... that's life :-) As I said.. it's ultimately not going to bother me since after the release is final, I'll have only 11.2 installed on my computers. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/11/5 Clayton
I have never seen a Fedora or Ubuntu release which could boot an openSUSE installation either (Things may have changed with this year's versions, but I have not bothered trying them as yet.)
Really? Interesting. I've done many mutiboot installs, and they've always worked... even with 6 or 8 different Linux versions. Each successive install was able to "find" the previous and in the end the last install had a kind of "master" Grub. In my case that last install was always openSUSE since I prefer the Grub menu we have to others.
Anyway, those that are responsible for the Grub fixes have stated that this situation isn't going to change for the 11.2 release - I understand the reasoning... I don't agree with the decision, but hey... that's life :-)
I've often done this, but always worked the other way round, basically used a Master /boot & GRUB installation and just required the later installs to create a clean /boot example. So I didn't see the issue that you have, I just never have seen any sign of that sort of thing working, well reliably enough for me. Now actually I considered that bug & others before voting, and decided on balance, it is not so serious, in scheme of installation bugs past. When a Linux install stops Windows booting it is worse as they may require installation media, someone with multiple Linux installs is perfectly capable of booting with a Live CD (possibly with forum help) fixing up the GRUB entries, or using GRUB's interactive features to boot a working kernel. In a way, the complete failure to boot with just a dark screen, I see on the laptop I write this appears worse. Anyone trying GM CD/DVD is just going to see a boot failure, right after Linux loads when initialisting PCI stuff. Then likely give up on Linux, as all the 2.6.31 kernels I've tried so far fail in same way. The only way around this type of issue, is to offer an alternative older kernel, which has drawback of complicating userspace, when features like ext4 won't be available. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Anders Johansson
-
Andreas Jaeger
-
Ben DJ
-
Clayton
-
Dirk Müller
-
Josef Reidinger
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Ken Schneider - openSUSE
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Mark Gray
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MasterPatricko
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Rob OpenSuSE
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Stefan Seyfried
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Stephan Kulow