[opensuse-factory] simplicity, WAS: About the Live CDs (PLEASE READ)

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Hans Witvliet

8 Jun 2012 8 Jun '12

09:39

On Thu, 2012-06-07 at 16:39 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

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Personally I think both Fedora and openSUSE have way too many options. Simplicity is a big "selling" point!

That is entirely other issue... afaicr this was discussed in another thread some time ago. But perhaps they might reconsider the amount of experience of the user who installs suse for the first time. Perhaps the default installer should only ask two questions: 1) Are you an experienced Linux user [default off] 2) Are you sure to modify the content of the hard disk [default off] If you blindly hit the enter key, nothing will happens (just be be safe) If toggle just the second one, yast should perform installations without any further questions. And some time later you'll have a default desktop. if you toggle the both, you should get the normal installer, where you have the option to determine to create the system as you think fit, without the need to remove afterwards things you don't like. [that is something i like about SuSE and really hate at some other distro's] Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

8 Jun 8 Jun

21:14

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 2:39 AM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Thu, 2012-06-07 at 16:39 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...
Personally I think both Fedora and openSUSE have way too many options. Simplicity is a big "selling" point!

That is entirely other issue... afaicr this was discussed in another thread some time ago.

But perhaps they might reconsider the amount of experience of the user who installs suse for the first time.

Perhaps the default installer should only ask two questions: 1) Are you an experienced Linux user [default off] 2) Are you sure to modify the content of the hard disk [default off]

If you blindly hit the enter key, nothing will happens (just be be safe)

If toggle just the second one, yast should perform installations without any further questions. And some time later you'll have a default desktop.

if you toggle the both, you should get the normal installer, where you have the option to determine to create the system as you think fit, without the need to remove afterwards things you don't like. [that is something i like about SuSE and really hate at some other distro's]

Hans

Ubuntu has led the ease-of-use parade and Fedora has followed. openSUSE is lagging and Debian and Gentoo are sitting on the sidewalk jeering at the horses. ;-) If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

...

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-- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

21:36

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-08 23:14, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

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If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media

Are we starting the gnome vs kde war again? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/ScHAACgkQIvFNjefEBxol1QCeOGjFsWCFGVdYHZagh/Gk83x1 7g0AoLaPx018KN0IxxEXtch3WSpjCXuE =XaNi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

22:10

* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-08-12 17:15]: ...

...

If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

and the *only* new users to openSUSE will be geeks familiar with kiwi and very competent in linux arts. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

9 Jun 9 Jun

07:20

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-08-12 17:15]: ...

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If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

and the *only* new users to openSUSE will be geeks familiar with kiwi and very competent in linux arts.

Downloading a built appliance from SUSE Studio is only a little more difficult than getting install media from http://software.opensuse.org/121/en. The only extra step is having to do a one-time signup and "join the community". -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

09:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] simplicity, WAS: About the Live CDs (PLEASE READ)

On Sat, 2012-06-09 at 00:20 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-08-12 17:15]: ...

...
If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

and the *only* new users to openSUSE will be geeks familiar with kiwi and very competent in linux arts.

Downloading a built appliance from SUSE Studio is only a little more difficult than getting install media from http://software.opensuse.org/121/en. The only extra step is having to do a one-time signup and "join the community".

true, but it would be easier, if all of those iso's and images were available for all, and not just for those with an account. Hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet

12 Jun 12 Jun

18:30

On Saturday 09 June 2012 11:27:08 Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Sat, 2012-06-09 at 00:20 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-08-12 17:15]: ...

...
If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

and the *only* new users to openSUSE will be geeks familiar with kiwi and very competent in linux arts.

Downloading a built appliance from SUSE Studio is only a little more difficult than getting install media from http://software.opensuse.org/121/en. The only extra step is having to do a one-time signup and "join the community".

true, but it would be easier, if all of those iso's and images were available for all, and not just for those with an account.

You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download. In any case, IF we do this - Studio/Gallery would need some changes to make for a better landing page for openSUSE visitors. I would want it to be openSUSE branded and all that. I believe that something like that could be arranged. After all, it'd be nice for Studio promo too ;-)

...

Hans

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

18:51

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

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On Saturday 09 June 2012 11:27:08 Hans Witvliet wrote:

...
On Sat, 2012-06-09 at 00:20 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-08-12 17:15]: ...

...
If I were designing the next round of openSUSE, I'd make only the KDE LiveCD and full install DVD as official branded media and migrate everything else to SUSE Studio Gallery appliances one could clone, build and download. I wouldn't even store built appliances - let the user use his/her own disk space allocation for that.

and the *only* new users to openSUSE will be geeks familiar with kiwi and very competent in linux arts.

Downloading a built appliance from SUSE Studio is only a little more difficult than getting install media from http://software.opensuse.org/121/en. The only extra step is having to do a one-time signup and "join the community".

true, but it would be easier, if all of those iso's and images were available for all, and not just for those with an account.

You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download.

Are you sure? When I'm not logged in, it asks me to sign in to download my appliances. You can create an account with a few clicks via OpenID, Google, Twitter, etc., but I think you still need one to download.

...

In any case, IF we do this - Studio/Gallery would need some changes to make for a better landing page for openSUSE visitors. I would want it to be openSUSE branded and all that.

I believe that something like that could be arranged. After all, it'd be nice for Studio promo too ;-)

Yeah ... SUSE Studio is "SUSE Corporate", not openSUSE. As I recall, the core technologies are open source but the studio as a whole contains some proprietary components. SUSE sells a supported version of the studio to enterprises, in fact. Maybe there needs to be a separate "openSUSE Studio Gallery" - remove the SLE repositories, change the branding, don't require logins and work with corporate to open source the technology. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bryen M Yunashko

13 Jun 13 Jun

00:37

On Tue, 2012-06-12 at 20:30 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download.

Sadly, you do. One wonders how much more adoption of openSUSE could be had if Gallery never had the login requirement. I talked to someone in #susestudio a few months back about this, and was told SUSE decided to have the login because it wanted to keep track of what downloading were downloading. That's a bit scary if true, but its their system, their decision.

...

In any case, IF we do this - Studio/Gallery would need some changes to make for a better landing page for openSUSE visitors. I would want it to be openSUSE branded and all that.

I believe that something like that could be arranged. After all, it'd be nice for Studio promo too ;-)

This would represent a fundamental shift in openSUSE's philosophy, in my opinion. Are we prepared for this? I personally love that we have a partnership with SUSE Studio. It is a great product and we use it frequently in the community and we wholeheartedly promote SUSE Studio in our talks everywhere. However, SUSE Studio is not an openSUSE-umbrella'ed project. It is a SUSE project. Moreover, it is not 100% open source last I heard. At openSUSE, we take pride in declaring that everything we do under the openSUSE Project umbrella is 100% open source and usable by anyone, even if they are not using openSUSE. If we made Studio the very first thing people have to encounter when they wish to start using openSUSE, then we are contradicting our own claim right out of the gate. Nothing against Studio, mind you. Just that we need to remain true to our fundamental goals as a Project or take the time to re-define it. Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

04:04

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

On Tue, 2012-06-12 at 20:30 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...
You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download.

Sadly, you do. One wonders how much more adoption of openSUSE could be had if Gallery never had the login requirement.

I talked to someone in #susestudio a few months back about this, and was told SUSE decided to have the login because it wanted to keep track of what downloading were downloading. That's a bit scary if true, but its their system, their decision.

I get so few downloads anyway that it hardly matters. And the gallery analytics are non-existent until you start building appliances with a signed partnership agreement with SUSE. Since my appliances are transitioning to PaaS anyhow, it looks like SUSE Studio / Gallery is no longer viable - my options are CloudFoundry (Ubuntu) or OpenShift (RHEL / Fedora).

...

...
In any case, IF we do this - Studio/Gallery would need some changes to make for a better landing page for openSUSE visitors. I would want it to be openSUSE branded and all that.

I believe that something like that could be arranged. After all, it'd be nice for Studio promo too ;-)

This would represent a fundamental shift in openSUSE's philosophy, in my opinion. Are we prepared for this?

I personally love that we have a partnership with SUSE Studio. It is a great product and we use it frequently in the community and we wholeheartedly promote SUSE Studio in our talks everywhere.

However, SUSE Studio is not an openSUSE-umbrella'ed project. It is a SUSE project. Moreover, it is not 100% open source last I heard. At openSUSE, we take pride in declaring that everything we do under the openSUSE Project umbrella is 100% open source and usable by anyone, even if they are not using openSUSE.

If we made Studio the very first thing people have to encounter when they wish to start using openSUSE, then we are contradicting our own claim right out of the gate.

Nothing against Studio, mind you. Just that we need to remain true to our fundamental goals as a Project or take the time to re-define it.

Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project

I'd like to see that happen, given my years in the Studio. I've been there since it was first announced and I'm a huge fan of it. But obviously SUSE the business needs to look at the numbers and the strategic matters. They're spending a fair amount of money keeping the platform alive and extending it. If it isn't contributing to inbound marketing for the business and/or helping take customers away from the other companies that sell Linux support - Canonical, Red Hat, Oracle - then they should either make it better or turn it over to the community and let us open it up and extend it. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hans Witvliet

23:04

New subject: [opensuse-factory] simplicity, WAS: About the Live CDs (PLEASE READ)

On Tue, 2012-06-12 at 21:04 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

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On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...
On Tue, 2012-06-12 at 20:30 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...
You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download.

Sadly, you do. One wonders how much more adoption of openSUSE could be had if Gallery never had the login requirement.

I could understand if you need an account for creating your own images. But what is the point for restricting the downloading of them? Or even better: put an copy of them on downlooad.opensuse.org besides the current ISO directory.

...

...
I talked to someone in #susestudio a few months back about this, and was told SUSE decided to have the login because it wanted to keep track of what downloading were downloading. That's a bit scary if true, but its their system, their decision.

I get so few downloads anyway that it hardly matters. And the gallery analytics are non-existent until you start building appliances with a signed partnership agreement with SUSE. Since my appliances are transitioning to PaaS anyhow, it looks like SUSE Studio / Gallery is no longer viable - my options are CloudFoundry (Ubuntu) or OpenShift (RHEL / Fedora). I love studio/ & kiwi, so i'm slightly biased, but last week we hade a kanonical-engineer over for a week. And he tried to promote their solution. After a week even _he_ wasn't capable to get it working....

...

I'd like to see that happen, given my years in the Studio. I've been there since it was first announced and I'm a huge fan of it. But obviously SUSE the business needs to look at the numbers and the strategic matters. They're spending a fair amount of money keeping the platform alive and extending it. If it isn't contributing to inbound marketing for the business and/or helping take customers away from the other companies that sell Linux support - Canonical, Red Hat, Oracle - then they should either make it better or turn it over to the community and let us open it up and extend it.

You don't need to open it completely. (read-only) Just like the OBS, most people only use the results, and don;t need to create something themselves hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet

18:46

On Tuesday 12 June 2012 19:37:46 Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

On Tue, 2012-06-12 at 20:30 +0200, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...
You don't need an account on Studio/Gallery to download.

Sadly, you do. One wonders how much more adoption of openSUSE could be had if Gallery never had the login requirement.

I talked to someone in #susestudio a few months back about this, and was told SUSE decided to have the login because it wanted to keep track of what downloading were downloading. That's a bit scary if true, but its their system, their decision.

Meh, didn't notice. The download button showed up, I just assumed I could click it and start the download :D That'd have to be fixed for sure. <snip>

...

This would represent a fundamental shift in openSUSE's philosophy, in my opinion. Are we prepared for this?

I personally love that we have a partnership with SUSE Studio. It is a great product and we use it frequently in the community and we wholeheartedly promote SUSE Studio in our talks everywhere.

However, SUSE Studio is not an openSUSE-umbrella'ed project. It is a SUSE project. Moreover, it is not 100% open source last I heard. At openSUSE, we take pride in declaring that everything we do under the openSUSE Project umbrella is 100% open source and usable by anyone, even if they are not using openSUSE.

We use Github - even moved from the Free Software Gitorious over to Github because it's so much better! We're a practical community and I like it that way... So I don't see a fundamental problem.

...

If we made Studio the very first thing people have to encounter when they wish to start using openSUSE, then we are contradicting our own claim right out of the gate.

Well, being the first thing is a bad impression, yes. Then again, I believe our forums are proprietary software too - and also something quite visible. I don't think it's a black and white discussion - we should (be able to) ask for some consessions from the Studio team if we decide we need that here and there.

...

Nothing against Studio, mind you. Just that we need to remain true to our fundamental goals as a Project or take the time to re-define it.

Depends on what we integrate and what we don't. But I wouldn't require the whole platform to be open if we just redirect people there to download stuff (provided it doesn't ask for a login, of course!). The opportunity to clone the image we provide and edit it is something people have now too, it's just more complicated. We'd not be taking anything away or making currently-free things more closed for anyone. We'd only be building on and taking advantage of what our ecosystem provides. /Jos

...

Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project

Bryen M Yunashko

19:01

On Wed, 201 <Lots of snipping>

...

/Jos

I believe referencing Github is comparing apples to oranges. But I concede on your other points. :-D Bryen

...

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Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Project

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Nelson Marques

8 Jun 8 Jun

21:43

2012/6/8 Hans Witvliet :

...

On Thu, 2012-06-07 at 16:39 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...
Personally I think both Fedora and openSUSE have way too many options. Simplicity is a big "selling" point!

That is entirely other issue... afaicr this was discussed in another thread some time ago.

But perhaps they might reconsider the amount of experience of the user who installs suse for the first time.

Perhaps the default installer should only ask two questions: 1) Are you an experienced Linux user [default off] 2) Are you sure to modify the content of the hard disk [default off]

If you blindly hit the enter key, nothing will happens (just be be safe)

It's nice that the install process is being reviewed, I would like to request 2 things to be considered: * Don't follow Mint: this means give all storage options and advanced options for users (though you can work on user friendly defaults); Not being able to set/define LVM volumes on the default installer sucks... Mints sucks a lot because of that too :) * When you do 'EDIT' for advanced or custom partitioning, the defaults shown are the ones suggeted by the system, which leads users to press 'Refresh' in order to get the 'real' state of their hard-drive. This is futile in my opinion and adds an extra step. If one goes advanced it would be a better option (in my opinion) to have the default layout of the drive instead of the suggested on as base for users to setup things. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Graham Anderson

9 Jun 9 Jun

09:36

On Friday 08 Jun 2012 22:43:48 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

It's nice that the install process is being reviewed

On this note, one thing that I think the Ubuntu installer gets right is the feature whereby the user specific choices such as timezone, user account and so on are entered after the package installation starts. This means that rather than staring at a slideshow or progress bar for 15 minutes the user is actually busy entering details while the system is being installed, then the choices are applied to the system at the end. This reduces the overall install time significantly. This is something I'd like to see in our installer.

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

17:14

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Friday 08 Jun 2012 22:43:48 Nelson Marques wrote:

...
It's nice that the install process is being reviewed

On this note, one thing that I think the Ubuntu installer gets right is the feature whereby the user specific choices such as timezone, user account and so on are entered after the package installation starts. This means that rather than staring at a slideshow or progress bar for 15 minutes the user is actually busy entering details while the system is being installed, then the choices are applied to the system at the end. This reduces the overall install time significantly. This is something I'd like to see in our installer.

I've done quite a few Fedora 16 and 17 installs the past few weeks. 1. 17 now has the "Try or Install" decision after doing a lot of "undercover" work just like Ubuntu, but they don't touch the disk until they know everything they need. 2. Both Fedora and Ubuntu offer to set up NTP; openSUSE doesn't, for some reason. 3. It seemed to me, though I didn't clock it, that once Fedora starts installing, getting everything onto disk is a good bit faster than Ubuntu and openSUSE. openSUSE used to be faster. These are minor differences, though, IMHO. They aren't going to drive adoption by creating new users or taking users away from Windows, Mac or other distros. That only happens via compelling value propositions and network effects. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Christian Wansart

17:27

...

1. 17 now has the "Try or Install" decision after doing a lot of "undercover" work just like Ubuntu, but they don't touch the disk until they know everything they need. That's indeed a good point. +1

...

2. Both Fedora and Ubuntu offer to set up NTP; openSUSE doesn't, for some reason. openSUSE does offer NTP during installation, see : http://en.opensuse.org/images/3/3f/11.4_LIVE_installer-ntp.png

Regards, Christian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

18:03

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Christian Wansart wrote:

...

...
1. 17 now has the "Try or Install" decision after doing a lot of "undercover" work just like Ubuntu, but they don't touch the disk until they know everything they need. That's indeed a good point. +1

...
2. Both Fedora and Ubuntu offer to set up NTP; openSUSE doesn't, for some reason. openSUSE does offer NTP during installation, see : http://en.opensuse.org/images/3/3f/11.4_LIVE_installer-ntp.png

It's somewhat buried as I recall ... and of course it requires a network connection or you have to do it over when the machine comes up. Ubuntu now explicitly encourages network connectivity during install but will work without it. Fedora sometimes asks for it and sometimes doesn't; I haven't figured out how it decides. If you boot it into the desktop and enable a network with NetworkManager, Fedora will remember the settings onto your installed system, which I think is nifty. ;-) I really think the strategy after 12.2 should be: 1. Take a leaf out of Ubuntu's book. Provide the absolutely best KDE 700MB LiveCD / Installer we can and feature the heck out of it! Add an app store like Ubuntu has, even! 2. If you have network during an install, measure its speed and offer the user alternate desktops with a warning on how long the install will take. Offer the non-OSS components at install time like Ubuntu does. 3. Provide the rest of the install media via our "other app store", SUSE Studio Gallery. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

18:11

...

It's somewhat buried as I recall ... and of course it requires a network connection or you have to do it over when the machine comes up. Ubuntu now explicitly encourages network connectivity during install but will work without it. Fedora sometimes asks for it and sometimes doesn't; I haven't figured out how it decides. If you boot it into the desktop and enable a network with NetworkManager, Fedora will remember the settings onto your installed system, which I think is nifty. ;-)

I really think the strategy after 12.2 should be:

1. Take a leaf out of Ubuntu's book. Provide the absolutely best KDE 700MB LiveCD / Installer we can and feature the heck out of it! Add an app store like Ubuntu has, even!

s/KDE/GNOME/g

...

2. If you have network during an install, measure its speed and offer the user alternate desktops with a warning on how long the install will take. Offer the non-OSS components at install time like Ubuntu does.

What happens if you don't ? Which will be a lot of cases if you consider a 'worldwide' panorama :)

...

3. Provide the rest of the install media via our "other app store", SUSE Studio Gallery.

Do that, and prepare for worldwide boycott :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

20:59

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...
It's somewhat buried as I recall ... and of course it requires a network connection or you have to do it over when the machine comes up. Ubuntu now explicitly encourages network connectivity during install but will work without it. Fedora sometimes asks for it and sometimes doesn't; I haven't figured out how it decides. If you boot it into the desktop and enable a network with NetworkManager, Fedora will remember the settings onto your installed system, which I think is nifty. ;-)

I really think the strategy after 12.2 should be:

1. Take a leaf out of Ubuntu's book. Provide the absolutely best KDE 700MB LiveCD / Installer we can and feature the heck out of it! Add an app store like Ubuntu has, even!

s/KDE/GNOME/g

I like GNOME3. I *use* GNOME3. But I don't see a huge difference between a Fedora GNOME3 and an openSUSE GNOME3. I think an openSUSE KDE can be sigificantly better than Fedora's KDE or Ubuntu's KDE, if only because of the geographic proximity of some of the core team members of the two projects. There's also some core "semantic desktop" functionality (Nepomuk) in KDE that hasn't been surpassed IMHO by anything GNOME, Unity, MATE or Cinnamon have to offer. I don't think you can even get this on Windows or a Mac - I've run that by the Nepomuk team and they say it's a lot of engineering work.

...

...
2. If you have network during an install, measure its speed and offer the user alternate desktops with a warning on how long the install will take. Offer the non-OSS components at install time like Ubuntu does.

What happens if you don't ? Which will be a lot of cases if you consider a 'worldwide' panorama :)

...
3. Provide the rest of the install media via our "other app store", SUSE Studio Gallery.

Do that, and prepare for worldwide boycott :)

How is being number six on the Distrowatch rankings, behind even Mageia and Debian, fundamentally different from a "worldwide boycott"? ;-) Rank Distribution H.P.D* 1 Mint 4081< 2 Ubuntu 2205> 3 Fedora 1703= 4 Mageia 1472> 5 Debian 1390= 6 openSUSE 1386> It's a numbers game and openSUSE's numbers are terrible. We have a strong community, SUSE Gallery, OBS and as far as I know the corporate side is doing acceptably well on the business metrics - revenues, expenses and competitive positioning in the enterprise. Why are we behind Mageia and Debian? For that matter, how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu? -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ilya Chernykh

21:08

On Sunday 10 June 2012 00:59:42 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...

Rank Distribution H.P.D* 1 Mint 4081< 2 Ubuntu 2205> 3 Fedora 1703= 4 Mageia 1472> 5 Debian 1390= 6 openSUSE 1386>

It's a numbers game and openSUSE's numbers are terrible. We have a strong community, SUSE Gallery, OBS and as far as I know the corporate side is doing acceptably well on the business metrics - revenues, expenses and competitive positioning in the enterprise. Why are we behind Mageia and Debian?

I think Mageia received sone additional coverage recently due to current events.

...

For that matter, how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu?

By providing Mate, a fork or Gnome2? They also provide Cinnamon, but as I know it is not widely used yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

21:27

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

...

On Sunday 10 June 2012 00:59:42 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

...
Rank Distribution H.P.D* 1 Mint 4081< 2 Ubuntu 2205> 3 Fedora 1703= 4 Mageia 1472> 5 Debian 1390= 6 openSUSE 1386>

It's a numbers game and openSUSE's numbers are terrible. We have a strong community, SUSE Gallery, OBS and as far as I know the corporate side is doing acceptably well on the business metrics - revenues, expenses and competitive positioning in the enterprise. Why are we behind Mageia and Debian?

I think Mageia received sone additional coverage recently due to current events.

...
For that matter, how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu?

By providing Mate, a fork or Gnome2? They also provide Cinnamon, but as I know it is not widely used yet.

I haven't tried MATE yet - GNOME3 fallback mode is as good as GNOME2 as far as I'm concerned. I have tried Cinnamon, though, and it didn't strike me as significantly better than GNOME3. They're all a lot better for my workflow than Unity. I'm guessing it was Unity in 11.10 that gave Mint the window to build a new desktop and grab market share. Or maybe it was the combination of the desktop and having a rolling release Debian option. Ubuntu doubled-down on Unity, though. At the moment, I'm spending about half of my time in Fedora and half in openSUSE, both on GNOME3 with occasional forays into LXDE. The Fedora time isn't so much because of the desktops as it is the fact that I'm diving into OpenStack IaaS and Platform-as-a-Service, and Fedora's a good bit ahead of openSUSE in those areas. I'm guessing 12.2 will be fully caught up on OpenStack, but so far there's nothing in openSUSE like OpenShift (RHEL / Fedora) or Cloud Foundry (Ubuntu).

...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

21:33

...

...
s/KDE/GNOME/g

I like GNOME3. I *use* GNOME3. But I don't see a huge difference between a Fedora GNOME3 and an openSUSE GNOME3. I think an openSUSE KDE can be sigificantly better than Fedora's KDE or Ubuntu's KDE, if only because of the geographic proximity of some of the core team members of the two projects.

99% of the universe still refuses to understand that GNOME3 isn't only about the shell, but it's also a transiction from a traditional code stack in C that now has a potent set of bindings to other high level languages (python, java, etc). Now this creates a lot more of possibilities for new people to enroll, specially those who don't give a damn about low level stuff and only want to get their applications. Look... What is easier to refactore, low level C or python? If you are skeptical... Do you see Canonical or Mint doing deep core stuff? ;) Looks like they were the ones with the brains... while all the others are just following God knows what...

...

There's also some core "semantic desktop" functionality (Nepomuk) in KDE that hasn't been surpassed IMHO by anything GNOME, Unity, MATE or Cinnamon have to offer. I don't think you can even get this on Windows or a Mac - I've run that by the Nepomuk team and they say it's a lot of engineering work.

KDE is nice, and my intention isn't to tackle KDE... it's just claiming that GNOME has no place on a visible openSUSE it the worst attrocity someone can do. I saw too many people looking forward to vaporize GNOME2 out of the map... I hope it's clear now that was a huge mistake... openSUSE is a dead stick if it doesn't change... people need to be bald and agressive to move openSUSE into the highlights... KDE isn't going to do that for us ;)

...

...
...
2. If you have network during an install, measure its speed and offer the user alternate desktops with a warning on how long the install will take. Offer the non-OSS components at install time like Ubuntu does.

What happens if you don't ? Which will be a lot of cases if you consider a 'worldwide' panorama :)

...
3. Provide the rest of the install media via our "other app store", SUSE Studio Gallery.

Do that, and prepare for worldwide boycott :)

How is being number six on the Distrowatch rankings, behind even Mageia and Debian, fundamentally different from a "worldwide boycott"? ;-)

When that cames from AC Nielsen of Gartner, maybe then we can think about it... From a simple ranking from clicks... it means nothing... Let me guess you also believe that there are more Mint installs than Red Hat ? :) The company where I work has probably more Red Hat's than the whole users in the bloody country... So is that proof enough that those kind of statistics really mean nothing ? I should know, my field of expertise is actually marketing management (which includes market studies) ;)

...

It's a numbers game and openSUSE's numbers are terrible. We have a strong community, SUSE Gallery, OBS and as far as I know the corporate side is doing acceptably well on the business metrics - revenues, expenses and competitive positioning in the enterprise. Why are we behind Mageia and Debian? For that matter, how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu?

No, like I said before what openSUSE needs is a set of goals for the Board to act upon... so they can be judged and senteced by the community according to their success and failures. For how long do we ear the 'Foundation' crap... Why are those people that preach for years are seen as heroes when they fail year after year ? See where this is going... This is going to the point where your users don't trust you anymore and couldn't care less about what happens :) Welcome to the new world! One where only the bald and the ones with guts to give their chest to the bullets will strive... :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet

12 Jun 12 Jun

18:37

On Saturday 09 June 2012 22:33:16 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...
...
s/KDE/GNOME/g

I like GNOME3. I *use* GNOME3. But I don't see a huge difference between a Fedora GNOME3 and an openSUSE GNOME3. I think an openSUSE KDE can be sigificantly better than Fedora's KDE or Ubuntu's KDE, if only because of the geographic proximity of some of the core team members of the two projects.

99% of the universe still refuses to understand that GNOME3 isn't only about the shell, but it's also a transiction from a traditional code stack in C that now has a potent set of bindings to other high level languages (python, java, etc).

Now this creates a lot more of possibilities for new people to enroll, specially those who don't give a damn about low level stuff and only want to get their applications. Look... What is easier to refactore, low level C or python?

If you are skeptical... Do you see Canonical or Mint doing deep core stuff? ;) Looks like they were the ones with the brains... while all the others are just following God knows what...

...
There's also some core "semantic desktop" functionality (Nepomuk) in KDE that hasn't been surpassed IMHO by anything GNOME, Unity, MATE or Cinnamon have to offer. I don't think you can even get this on Windows or a Mac - I've run that by the Nepomuk team and they say it's a lot of engineering work.

KDE is nice, and my intention isn't to tackle KDE... it's just claiming that GNOME has no place on a visible openSUSE it the worst attrocity someone can do. I saw too many people looking forward to vaporize GNOME2 out of the map... I hope it's clear now that was a huge mistake... openSUSE is a dead stick if it doesn't change... people need to be bald and agressive to move openSUSE into the highlights... KDE isn't going to do that for us ;)

Nobody is - unless we can put in significant effort in one or the other desktop, it doesn't matter much and we better stick with both. IF we would be capable of doing something akin to what Ubuntu used to do to GNOME (before Unity), either to GNOME or KDE - then, yes, focus would be nice. But until that day we should keep the choices close to the users. Imho :D

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

19:08

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Saturday 09 June 2012 22:33:16 Nelson Marques wrote:

...
...
...
s/KDE/GNOME/g

I like GNOME3. I *use* GNOME3. But I don't see a huge difference between a Fedora GNOME3 and an openSUSE GNOME3. I think an openSUSE KDE can be sigificantly better than Fedora's KDE or Ubuntu's KDE, if only because of the geographic proximity of some of the core team members of the two projects.

99% of the universe still refuses to understand that GNOME3 isn't only about the shell, but it's also a transiction from a traditional code stack in C that now has a potent set of bindings to other high level languages (python, java, etc).

Now this creates a lot more of possibilities for new people to enroll, specially those who don't give a damn about low level stuff and only want to get their applications. Look... What is easier to refactore, low level C or python?

If you are skeptical... Do you see Canonical or Mint doing deep core stuff? ;) Looks like they were the ones with the brains... while all the others are just following God knows what...

...
There's also some core "semantic desktop" functionality (Nepomuk) in KDE that hasn't been surpassed IMHO by anything GNOME, Unity, MATE or Cinnamon have to offer. I don't think you can even get this on Windows or a Mac - I've run that by the Nepomuk team and they say it's a lot of engineering work.

KDE is nice, and my intention isn't to tackle KDE... it's just claiming that GNOME has no place on a visible openSUSE it the worst attrocity someone can do. I saw too many people looking forward to vaporize GNOME2 out of the map... I hope it's clear now that was a huge mistake... openSUSE is a dead stick if it doesn't change... people need to be bald and agressive to move openSUSE into the highlights... KDE isn't going to do that for us ;)

Nobody is - unless we can put in significant effort in one or the other desktop, it doesn't matter much and we better stick with both. IF we would be capable of doing something akin to what Ubuntu used to do to GNOME (before Unity), either to GNOME or KDE - then, yes, focus would be nice. But until that day we should keep the choices close to the users.

Imho :D

A few releases back, it looked very much like GNOME (2) was falling out of favor and KDE (4) was getting more love in openSUSE. I switched from GNOME 2 to KDE 4 for an entire release cycle for that reason. Part of the problem is where the desktop projects are at any given point in time. KDE 4 was new and exciting and people wanted to work on it, GNOME 2 and the slab were old and boring. Then GNOME 3 came along and KDE 4 was old and boring. ;-) I'm happy with GNOME 3 but I'm seriously considering switching to KDE 4 because of the semantic desktop capabilities. *All* Linux desktops / window managers more capable than "twm" can be easily customized to be visually pleasing and provide a productive workflow. So for me it comes down to resource usage and the core technologies' capabilities. KDE used to be a resource hog but it's a lot better now, and I think Tracker isn't yet up to where Nepomuk is. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

20:51

...

Nobody is - unless we can put in significant effort in one or the other desktop, it doesn't matter much and we better stick with both. IF we would

Totally agree, both and then some more... freedom of choice is tightly related to offer and availability, not to scarcity ;)

...

be capable of doing something akin to what Ubuntu used to do to GNOME (before Unity), either to GNOME or KDE - then, yes, focus would be nice. But until that day we should keep the choices close to the users.

Honestly, buy the challenge and drop GNOME. In a few years let me know your conclusions, if you earned or if you loss users.

...

Imho :D -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jos Poortvliet

13 Jun 13 Jun

18:39

On Tuesday 12 June 2012 21:51:42 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...
Nobody is - unless we can put in significant effort in one or the other desktop, it doesn't matter much and we better stick with both. IF we would Totally agree, both and then some more... freedom of choice is tightly related to offer and availability, not to scarcity ;)

If we had the resources to do a really outstanding job on either GNOME or KDE, and I'm talking the equivalent of at least 2-3 full-time jobs, be it in volunteer or paid form, we could think about something like clearly adopting that one as standard (not just the radio button pre-selected but advertise it as such in marketing etc).

...

...
be capable of doing something akin to what Ubuntu used to do to GNOME (before Unity), either to GNOME or KDE - then, yes, focus would be nice. But until that day we should keep the choices close to the users.

Honestly, buy the challenge and drop GNOME. In a few years let me know your conclusions, if you earned or if you loss users.

Dropping is of the table anyway, we want to provide choice - but we can put more focus (in marketing and engineering) on one of the two. I'd recon we'd loose some people no matter what choice we make but that's how choices work. Doesn't mean making a choice is bad, just that it has consequences.

...

...
Imho :D

Graham Anderson

10 Jun 10 Jun

01:56

On Saturday 09 Jun 2012 13:59:42 M. Edward Borasky wrote:

...

how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu?

Distrowatch rankings are based on pageviews, which is one of the most simple metrics to game. I sincerely doubt there are more mint users than there are ubuntu users.

Felix Miata

02:44

New subject: [opensuse-factory] distrowatch rankings {was: simplicity...}

On 2012/06/10 03:56 (GMT+0200) Graham Anderson composed:

...

Edward Borasky wrote:

...

...
how did Mint manage to pass Ubuntu?

...

Distrowatch rankings are based on pageviews, which is one of the most simple metrics to game. I sincerely doubt there are more mint users than there are ubuntu users.

Maybe Mint has a script that hits Distrowatch with a FF UA string every first boot after a fresh install? :-D -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Rajko

21:30

New subject: [opensuse-factory] distrowatch rankings {was: simplicity...}

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 22:44:34 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

...

Maybe Mint has a script that hits Distrowatch with a FF UA string every first boot after a fresh install? :-D

Set browser to open with page that contains links to all important Linux sites, one being Distrowatch web page about your distro: http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=suse and you will have "script" that is executed every time user looks there. Be selfish, promote only yourself and you are where you want to be, on your own. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

James Knott

9 Jun 9 Jun

19:54

Christian Wansart wrote:

...

...
1. 17 now has the "Try or Install" decision after doing a lot of "undercover" work just like Ubuntu, but they don't touch the disk until they know everything they need. That's indeed a good point. +1

...
2. Both Fedora and Ubuntu offer to set up NTP; openSUSE doesn't, for some reason. openSUSE does offer NTP during installation, see : http://en.opensuse.org/images/3/3f/11.4_LIVE_installer-ntp.png

Regards, Christian

How does that differ from Ad Hoc mode? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques

17:48

2012/6/9 M. Edward (Ed) Borasky :

...

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Graham Anderson wrote:

...
On Friday 08 Jun 2012 22:43:48 Nelson Marques wrote:

...
It's nice that the install process is being reviewed

On this note, one thing that I think the Ubuntu installer gets right is the feature whereby the user specific choices such as timezone, user account and so on are entered after the package installation starts. This means that rather than staring at a slideshow or progress bar for 15 minutes the user is actually busy entering details while the system is being installed, then the choices are applied to the system at the end. This reduces the overall install time significantly. This is something I'd like to see in our installer.

I've done quite a few Fedora 16 and 17 installs the past few weeks.

1. 17 now has the "Try or Install" decision after doing a lot of "undercover" work just like Ubuntu, but they don't touch the disk until they know everything they need.

2. Both Fedora and Ubuntu offer to set up NTP; openSUSE doesn't, for some reason.

3. It seemed to me, though I didn't clock it, that once Fedora starts installing, getting everything onto disk is a good bit faster than Ubuntu and openSUSE. openSUSE used to be faster.

I find openSUSE still faster than Fedora... and GRUB2 in openSUSE actually works with my partition layout, that doesn't happen with Fedora, which I can't install with my layout since the beta ;)

...

These are minor differences, though, IMHO. They aren't going to drive adoption by creating new users or taking users away from Windows, Mac or other distros. That only happens via compelling value propositions and network effects.

-- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver

Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

M. Edward (Ed) Borasky

18:09

On Sat, Jun 9, 2012 at 10:48 AM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

I find openSUSE still faster than Fedora... and GRUB2 in openSUSE actually works with my partition layout, that doesn't happen with Fedora, which I can't install with my layout since the beta ;)

I've had severe problems with Fedora 17 GRUB2 on my NVidia workstation - I've had to abandon it for the moment. But on my laptop, openSUSE 12.2 beta, Fedora 17, Fedora 16 and Ubuntu GRUB2 all work just fine. Fedora has the annoying habit of putting partitions in /etc/fstab by UUID rather than the way openSUSE does it, using "/dev/disk/by-id". So if you rebuild a partition you have to go into Fedora and change stuff.

...

...
These are minor differences, though, IMHO. They aren't going to drive adoption by creating new users or taking users away from Windows, Mac or other distros. That only happens via compelling value propositions and network effects.

-- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver

Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle...

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13 participants

participants (13)

Bryen M Yunashko
Carlos E. R.
Christian Wansart
Felix Miata
Graham Anderson
Hans Witvliet
Ilya Chernykh
James Knott
Jos Poortvliet
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky
Nelson Marques
Patrick Shanahan
Rajko