On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:48:13 Stephan Kulow wrote:

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With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default? Can you please give some numbers?

It is subjective but on my machine using normal rpms is much faster. Also users ask how to disable delta rpms due the same reason: http://tinyurl.com/5tsrb65 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, October 26, 2011 09:17:28 AM Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:

But probably make it easier to change the setting?

As with many other things, don't assume, let user choose, when possible with GUI. It should be relatively easy math to find out better option between Internet and CPU speed, and change update method, but even then ask user, as speed will not tell that there is soft limit in total traffic (download). -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:52:33 C wrote:

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With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?

Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark? While some of us have 100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the vast majority of the planet.

Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011/10/26 16:42 (GMT+0200) Stefan Seyfried composed:

Ilya Ch_ernykh wrote:

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C wrote:

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Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark? While some of us have 100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the vast majority of the planet.

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Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster.

Unless you are using a very slow machine, using delta rpms is faster.

Hint: without numbers, this is not productive.

I tried it with (artificially) slow network on a 144GB 24 core dual-ssd server... deltarpm application even for large packages like kernel-source is blazingly fast ;-)

_Apparent_ delta RPM slowness annoyed me for years until a couple of months ago when I discovered the possibility to and how to disable them. I've virtually always used commit.downloadMode = DownloadAsNeeded, not doing so only in the period immediately after it became the default no longer. Applying deltas, subjectively, seemed in most cases to take longer than downloading a full RPM. None of my machines have more than one CPU or CPU core. Most are 2.4GHz or slower. Few have more than 1G RAM. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday, October 26, 2011 11:06:43 AM Ilya Chernykh wrote: ...

I do not know whether there is software which can measure the speed.

time <command to measure> It will write used time on <command to measure> exit. time zypper ref <skipped zypper output> real 1m0.725s user 0m10.464s sys 0m2.874s -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

  On Wednesday 26 October 2011 20:25:38 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:    >  > Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker  > using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).  >  > Better to have it user selectable.    Currently I have 4 Mbit connection and 3 GHz 2-core CPU. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:38:23 -0300 Claudio Freire wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

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Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).

In my zone, slow internet is 1Mbit. With luck. Hi From my perspective from the forum posts in the past, we have had queries from users based in the Africa's who still use dial-up, then as an expat New Zealander, there are data caps to take into account, nothing worse than missing the change and finding out your over your data cap....

Me, I don't sit and watch the screen as things happen, I review the updates, start them and go do something else.... I would vote to stay with the deltas :) -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.7-desktop up 2 days 3:44, 5 users, load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.13 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 285.05.09 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:52:54PM +0300, Vahis wrote:

On 26.10.2011 19:25, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

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Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).

Better to have it user selectable.

I'm with user selection :)

Each additional question makes the installation harder for beginners. It would be ok to make it possible to disable delta RPMs. But please do not add an additional question everyone has to answer. Please also keep in mind how much total bandwith is saved due to the delta mechanism. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On 27.10.2011 09:07, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

Is this about implementing a feature that already exists?

## ## Whether to consider using a .delta.rpm when downloading a package ## ## Valid values: boolean ## Default value: true ## ## Using a delta rpm will decrease the download size for package updates ## since it does not contain all files of the package but only the binary ## diff of changed ones. Recreating the rpm package on the local machine ## is an expensive operation (memory,CPU). If your network connection is ## not too slow, you benefit from disabling .delta.rpm. ## # download.use_deltarpm = true

The "feature request" is about a "zypper modifyconfig --{no,}deltas". I really hate having to manually edit databases. Looks like I'm growing old. (and yes, i'm nowadays considering config files, each with its own format and syntax as almost as bad as binary blob databases. It does not matter if your config editor tool is "vi" or "mysql") Maybe even a setting somewhere in the yast2 packagemanager gui? (I seldom use this, so I'd care more for a zypper switch ;-) Nothing too urgent though, I always just distribute an identical, changed zypp.conf to all newly installed machines. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/27/2011 03:31 AM, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:

On Thursday 27 of October 2011 10:23:08 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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On 27.10.2011 09:07, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

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Is this about implementing a feature that already exists?

## ## Whether to consider using a .delta.rpm when downloading a package ## ## Valid values: boolean ## Default value: true ## ## Using a delta rpm will decrease the download size for package updates ## since it does not contain all files of the package but only the binary ## diff of changed ones. Recreating the rpm package on the local machine ## is an expensive operation (memory,CPU). If your network connection is ## not too slow, you benefit from disabling .delta.rpm. ## # download.use_deltarpm = true

The "feature request" is about a "zypper modifyconfig --{no,}deltas". I really hate having to manually edit databases. Looks like I'm growing old.

(and yes, i'm nowadays considering config files, each with its own format and syntax as almost as bad as binary blob databases. It does not matter if your config editor tool is "vi" or "mysql")

Maybe even a setting somewhere in the yast2 packagemanager gui? (I seldom use this, so I'd care more for a zypper switch ;-)

Nothing too urgent though, I always just distribute an identical, changed zypp.conf to all newly installed machines.

I'd say patches welcome ;-) Hacking zypper is not complicated thing, really.

Stano

Actually, none of the above is needed. Go into Yast and /etc/sysconfig, then search for deltarpm will show the magic switch. It has been there for years AFAIK. HTH, Peter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 26.10.2011 16:28, Lars Müller wrote:

-1 as there are still people with limited bandwith and/ or limited download volume.

agreed (side note: you are spending too much time in web forums or with apache guys if you are using "+1" and "-1" :-)

For those not liking the default it is easy to disable the use of delta rpms.

Disagreed, it is not easy to change. But this could be changed by introducing a "zypper mr --{no,}deltarpms" command or similar. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 27 October 2011, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

On 10/26/2011 04:44 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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Disagreed, it is not easy to change. But this could be changed by introducing a "zypper mr --{no,}deltarpms" command or similar.

Forget it! this is not a setting you want to change in each zypper run that justifies polluting zypper commands.

Having both command line and config option would give you the possibility to set the faster setting as the default in /etc/zypp/zypp.conf (to always use it in interactive sessions) but turn on deltarpm in /etc/cron.daily/suse-updatedb to be nice to the mirrors at least when time doesn't matter. cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2011-10-26 at 16:28 +0200, Lars Müller wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 05:41:38PM +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

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With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?

-1 as there are still people with limited bandwith and/ or limited download volume.

Yup. I peek out at the world through a 400Kbit pin-hole right here in Germany, less than 100km from the source. Bicycle+usb-stick is a bigger pipe to NBG for DVD size downloads :) -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org