On 03/29/2016 11:02 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-29 08:48 (UTC-1030):

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11. Currently the Gnome, Mate and KDE patterns all recommend pulseaudio-module-x11 (along with several other modules) which leads me to the question is it possible to have working audio on a desktop out of the box without the pulseaudio-module-x11 package on any desktop, if not I am proposing that we move the recommends on PulseAudio into the x11 or x11_opt package (I'm open to either) if some other desktops don't require this package for audio i'm happy to add the recommends to the enlightenment pattern.

...

This issue is currently being tracked in boo#972912 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972912

Over the past 5 months or so, I've recorded installed sound-related packages[1] on 58 13.1, 13.2, 42.1 and TW installations here. 58 have KDE3, TDE, KDE4 and/or K5 as DE. One additionally has Enlightenment, but since its menu was completely illegible, I didn't try to use it except to exit the session, so didn't test its sound or record its sound packages. On only a single one of the 58 is pulseaudio-module-x11 installed. It was not required to make system sounds, yast2 test sound, aplay test sound or Youtube sounds in Firefox on any of those that have working sound (most do). Most on which I never got sound to work were either 13.2, or TDE on 42.1[2]. Whether it is actually required to make sounds on the exception, TDE on 13.1, I have no idea.

Thats a good point, thanks, I should mention that I tested sound through youtube + firefox, amarok and clementine. I don't have the exact error written down anymore but installing the mentioned package logging out and logging back in was enough to fix these issues. It is my expectation as a end user that on a normal setup audio would work out of the box. I noticed that the other major DE's already include this package so I was mostly wondering if other DE's had some other way of setting up audio so it worked out of the box the debian package description says the following "This module enables PulseAudio to publish itself as the default sound server to the X11 root window automatically upon startup. There is also a module to playback a sound file in place of the X11 bell beep." Maybe other DE's on openSUSE are still automatically starting some other sound server or start the pulse audio server without this package. That is mostly what i'm trying to find out here :), you can probably help answer the question by telling me if you had to do any other configuration to get a sound server to start on your machines?

Making sound work in Linux is probably the most vexing of routinely encountered problems. YaST makes it easier than elsewhere, but far from bulletproof. https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Audio_troubleshooting is probably worse than useless, good only for adding confusion to a confusing topic.

[1] rpm -qa | sort | egrep 'alsa|arts|imedia|kspac|libasou|mix|pavuc|phono|pulse' [2] http://bugs.pearsoncomputing.net/show_bug.cgi?id=2612

-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 03/29/2016 12:29 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-29 11:51 (UTC+1030):

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Maybe other DE's on openSUSE are still automatically starting some other sound server or start the pulse audio server without this package. That is mostly what i'm trying to find out here :), you can probably help answer the question by telling me if you had to do any other configuration to get a sound server to start on your machines?

That's really what the following refers to.

...

...

Making sound work in Linux is probably the most vexing of routinely encountered problems. YaST makes it easier than elsewhere, but far from bulletproof. https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Audio_troubleshooting is probably worse than useless, good only for adding confusion to a confusing topic.

I was able to establish no reliable sequence of actions or events that I could count on to result in sound working everywhere it ought.

Among tools used besides YaST2, gui $MIXER and gui $SYSTEMSETTINGS -> multimedia, I recall ATM only:

alsactl alsamixer aplay set_default_volume

Conspicuously absent is any tool beginning with string pulse. As Pulseaudio seems to be defined as a layer in between apps and ALSA, it naturally follows that it would amount to little but a way to complicate installations trying to adhere to KISS principles.

This is probably the difference between the two philosophies you are trying to build a system that you deem has a simple as possible software stack where as the approach I am taking is looking for the simplest possible user experience even if it involves some extra "fluf". From looking at the patterns the gnome/kde/mate maintainers have decided to take a similar approach to me, so the question i'm asking is should we apply this approach across all of X11 on openSUSE so each of the smaller DE's don't need to worry about making the decision or knowing they need to make the decision to reduce the mistakes. I'll also note that as this only effects patterns it has no impact on those like you setting up "minimal systems" Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Op dinsdag 29 maart 2016 20:11:17 CEST schreef Basil Chupin:

On 29/03/16 11:32, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-29 08:48 (UTC-1030):

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11. Currently the Gnome, Mate and KDE patterns all recommend pulseaudio-module-x11 (along with several other modules) which leads me to the question is it possible to have working audio on a desktop out of the box without the pulseaudio-module-x11 package on any desktop, if not I am proposing that we move the recommends on PulseAudio into the x11 or x11_opt package (I'm open to either) if some other desktops don't require this package for audio i'm happy to add the recommends to the enlightenment pattern.

This issue is currently being tracked in boo#972912

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972912

Over the past 5 months or so, I've recorded installed sound-related packages[1] on 58 13.1, 13.2, 42.1 and TW installations here. 58 have KDE3, TDE, KDE4 and/or K5 as DE. One additionally has Enlightenment, but since its menu was completely illegible, I didn't try to use it except to exit the session, so didn't test its sound or record its sound packages. On only a single one of the 58 is pulseaudio-module-x11 installed. It was not required to make system sounds, yast2 test sound, aplay test sound or Youtube sounds in Firefox on any of those that have working sound (most do). Most on which I never got sound to work were either 13.2, or TDE on 42.1[2]. Whether it is actually required to make sounds on the exception, TDE on 13.1, I have no idea.

Look, there is a person who is being paid by MicroFocus to be doing the job of being the person for QA for openSUSE.

Questions like the one you pose above should be directed at that QA person because they don't appear to be simple questions about sudden "bugs".

Come to think of it, why paying someone for being a "QA" person and also have a "bugzilla" where other non-paying people are solving problems which -- the way I see it -- should be foreseen and prevented by a QA person?

But then, what do I know?

[pruned]

Ciao,

BC

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Don.27t_be_aggressi... To elaborate: the last line of the chapter. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 30 maart 2016 17:39:49 CEST schreef Basil Chupin:

On 29/03/16 20:44, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Op dinsdag 29 maart 2016 20:11:17 CEST schreef Basil Chupin:

...

On 29/03/16 11:32, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-29 08:48 (UTC-1030):

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11. Currently the Gnome, Mate and KDE patterns all recommend pulseaudio-module-x11 (along with several other modules) which leads me to the question is it possible to have working audio on a desktop out of the box without the pulseaudio-module-x11 package on any desktop, if not I am proposing that we move the recommends on PulseAudio into the x11 or x11_opt package (I'm open to either) if some other desktops don't require this package for audio i'm happy to add the recommends to the enlightenment pattern.

This issue is currently being tracked in boo#972912

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972912

Over the past 5 months or so, I've recorded installed sound-related packages[1] on 58 13.1, 13.2, 42.1 and TW installations here. 58 have KDE3, TDE, KDE4 and/or K5 as DE. One additionally has Enlightenment, but since its menu was completely illegible, I didn't try to use it except to exit the session, so didn't test its sound or record its sound packages. On only a single one of the 58 is pulseaudio-module-x11 installed. It was not required to make system sounds, yast2 test sound, aplay test sound or Youtube sounds in Firefox on any of those that have working sound (most do). Most on which I never got sound to work were either 13.2, or TDE on 42.1[2]. Whether it is actually required to make sounds on the exception, TDE on 13.1, I have no idea.

Look, there is a person who is being paid by MicroFocus to be doing the job of being the person for QA for openSUSE.

Questions like the one you pose above should be directed at that QA person because they don't appear to be simple questions about sudden "bugs".

Come to think of it, why paying someone for being a "QA" person and also have a "bugzilla" where other non-paying people are solving problems which -- the way I see it -- should be foreseen and prevented by a QA person?

But then, what do I know?

[pruned]

Ciao,

BC

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Don.27t_be_aggres sive

To elaborate: the last line of the chapter.

Then the above is totally aimless, and your private mail is also totally

The private mail you're referring to was not my private mail, as the first line clearly indicates: "On behalf of the openSUSE Board: We .....". The message was sent as a private email, not as a public list message, but if you want to discuss it here, it might, for completeness sake, be better to share the entire content instead of just referring to it.

pointless, because as Richard states in the following response:

"There is no employee of SUSE being paid for being the job for QA for openSUSE."

How, then, can anyone carry out a "personal attack" against someone who doesn't exist?

Again, this is a reference to the private mail.

Ciao,

BC

-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 29 March 2016 at 11:11, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 29/03/16 11:32, Felix Miata wrote:

Look, there is a person who is being paid by MicroFocus to be doing the job of being the person for QA for openSUSE.

Questions like the one you pose above should be directed at that QA person because they don't appear to be simple questions about sudden "bugs".

Come to think of it, why paying someone for being a "QA" person and also have a "bugzilla" where other non-paying people are solving problems which -- the way I see it -- should be foreseen and prevented by a QA person?

But then, what do I know?

Not much, clearly. There is no employee of SUSE being paid for being the job for QA for openSUSE If you thought you were referring to me, then allow me to explain my jobs a little clearer I have two I am employed by SUSE as the Technical Lead of openQA, where my responsibilities are mostly centred around SUSE's use of openQA for testing SUSE's Enterprise products. Of course as openQA is an Open Source and openSUSE Project that means I quite often help the various people working on openSUSE's use of openQA as part of Tumbleweed and Leap development, but I wouldn't describe myself as 'responsible' for it any more than every other contributor to openSUSE. I am also employed/appointed by SUSE as the Chairman of the openSUSE Project, where my responsibilities are the same as the rest of the openSUSE Board - Lead the Project, Be a Central Point of Contact, Resolve Conflicts, Faciliate Decision Making, Facilitate Communication. In addition to the rest of the Board, I have an explicit additional responsibility to Communicate the communities needs to SUSE, and visa versa, be sure that SUSE is doing a good job of communicating it's interests to the community And of course, in addition to all that, I'm a contributor to openSUSE, just like I've always been since the project started and long before finding myself with either of those positions. And if you didn't mean me..I have no idea who else you could be possibly getting confused with... Regards, Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/29/2016 07:41 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 29/03/16 11:32, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-29 08:48 (UTC-1030):

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11. Currently the Gnome, Mate and KDE patterns all recommend pulseaudio-module-x11 (along with several other modules) which leads me to the question is it possible to have working audio on a desktop out of the box without the pulseaudio-module-x11 package on any desktop, if not I am proposing that we move the recommends on PulseAudio into the x11 or x11_opt package (I'm open to either) if some other desktops don't require this package for audio i'm happy to add the recommends to the enlightenment pattern.

...

This issue is currently being tracked in boo#972912 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=972912

Over the past 5 months or so, I've recorded installed sound-related packages[1] on 58 13.1, 13.2, 42.1 and TW installations here. 58 have KDE3, TDE, KDE4 and/or K5 as DE. One additionally has Enlightenment, but since its menu was completely illegible, I didn't try to use it except to exit the session, so didn't test its sound or record its sound packages. On only a single one of the 58 is pulseaudio-module-x11 installed. It was not required to make system sounds, yast2 test sound, aplay test sound or Youtube sounds in Firefox on any of those that have working sound (most do). Most on which I never got sound to work were either 13.2, or TDE on 42.1[2]. Whether it is actually required to make sounds on the exception, TDE on 13.1, I have no idea.

Look, there is a person who is being paid by MicroFocus to be doing the job of being the person for QA for openSUSE.

Questions like the one you pose above should be directed at that QA person because they don't appear to be simple questions about sudden "bugs".

Come to think of it, why paying someone for being a "QA" person and also have a "bugzilla" where other non-paying people are solving problems which -- the way I see it -- should be foreseen and prevented by a QA person?

Well as the enlightenment maintainer its part of my job to find and fix these sorts of issues, having found the solution I raised it here to discuss if applying a similar fix to all DE's is an appropriate step given its already applied to most. ** Disclaimer, these days I also work for SUSE / Microfocus but in a role that’s completely unrelated to the enlightenment maintainership I do in a community capacity other then spending a small amount of work time on it. I spent 3+ years doing it in my spare time before that, partly because it was beneficial to me and partly as I saw it as a worthwhile cause to volunteer time to. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 03/29/2016 04:19 PM, Peter Czanik wrote:

On 03/29/2016 12:18 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Hi All,

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11. Currently the Gnome, Mate and KDE patterns all recommend pulseaudio-module-x11 (along with several other modules) which leads me to the question is it possible to have working audio on a desktop out of the box without the pulseaudio-module-x11 package on any desktop, if not I am proposing that we move the recommends on PulseAudio into the x11 or x11_opt package (I'm open to either) if some other desktops don't require this package for audio i'm happy to add the recommends to the enlightenment pattern.

This issue is currently being tracked in boo#972912

I have a system with XFCE completly free of pulseaudio, and sound works just fine. It's already a big effort to remove pulseaudio, please don't make it even worse. Yes, I know, that in theory it should make sound setup easier. On the other hand, it makes sound quality worse. In my experience it makes mp3 quality sound from flac files. I tried to experiment a few times with pulseaudio settings, but the only good solution for good sound quality was to remove it completely. Bye, CzP

Thanks for your feedback, it seems that currently pulseaudio isn't installed by default with xfce, so if audio works out of the box that’s definitely a reason not to go ahead with this change. If audio doesn't work with no configuration without this change but it does after then its a change worth considering. If the change does go ahead those not wanting to use pulseaudio should be able to do so simply by uninstalling the packages as the change only implements a "soft" Recommends rather than a "hard" Requires. If someone running xfce can tell me whether this is the case or not that will save me a bit of time setting up something to test this. Thanks -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Takashi Iwai composed on 2016-03-29 13:05 (UTC+0200):

There are certainly some cases that need a manual adjustment for obtaining the sound I/O as user wants. Without PA, the configuration might be more difficult, yes.

The downside of adding it to Recommends is that it drags way too many packages, and uninstalling the whole stack isn't always easy and simple as you mentioned. (Stopping using it is easy via setup-pulseaudio script, though.)

And, we shouldn't forget the minimal X systems. Adding PA to there definitely annoys many developers. The purpose of such patterns isn't to make everything works out of the box without any manual configuration. Rather it should be kept as slim as possible.

...

If someone running xfce can tell me whether this is the case or not that will save me a bit of time setting up something to test this.

So, for now, my recommendation is to rather put into Enlightenment pattern.

What do you, or anyone, mean by "it" when referring to "PA" or "PulseAudio"? 1-libpulse0? 2-libpulse-mainloop-glib0 plus #1? 3-libpulse-mainloop-glib0 only? 4-pulseaudio only? 5-pulseaudio-module-x11 only? 6-pulseaudio plus one or more of #s 1-5 and/or other? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/29/2016 10:09 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:23:52 +0200, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Takashi Iwai composed on 2016-03-29 13:05 (UTC+0200):

...

There are certainly some cases that need a manual adjustment for obtaining the sound I/O as user wants. Without PA, the configuration might be more difficult, yes.

...

The downside of adding it to Recommends is that it drags way too many packages, and uninstalling the whole stack isn't always easy and simple as you mentioned. (Stopping using it is easy via setup-pulseaudio script, though.)

...

And, we shouldn't forget the minimal X systems. Adding PA to there definitely annoys many developers. The purpose of such patterns isn't to make everything works out of the box without any manual configuration. Rather it should be kept as slim as possible.

...

...

If someone running xfce can tell me whether this is the case or not that will save me a bit of time setting up something to test this.

...

So, for now, my recommendation is to rather put into Enlightenment pattern.

What do you, or anyone, mean by "it" when referring to "PA" or "PulseAudio"?

1-libpulse0? 2-libpulse-mainloop-glib0 plus #1? 3-libpulse-mainloop-glib0 only? 4-pulseaudio only? 5-pulseaudio-module-x11 only? 6-pulseaudio plus one or more of #s 1-5 and/or other?

Only 5 makes sense in the context we've discussed.

Takashi

Yeah I am talking about 5 and whatever its dependencies are at the moment. Its looking likely that I will just fix this in enlightenment unless people start speaking up in strong favor of doing this everywhere. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Tuesday 2016-03-29 15:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Tuesday 2016-03-29 00:18, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11.

There are two classic reasons for "no sound":

[2.] - the hardware enumerates such that some digital output (HDMI, SPDIF) gets to become the first and default output over Analog, which gets you sound, but not at the jack you probably expected it to come out of.

So please check whether this is the case - possibly with interactive help (e.g. IRC) if needed

Just open up `alsamixer` with no arguments, which shows (the tuning knobs of) the device configured to be "default". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:49:18 +0200, Simon Lees wrote:

On 03/30/2016 07:07 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2016-03-29 15:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Tuesday 2016-03-29 00:18, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On a clean install I did last week I discovered enlightenment had no sound, this was due to the missing pulseaudio-module-x11.

There are two classic reasons for "no sound":

[2.] - the hardware enumerates such that some digital output (HDMI, SPDIF) gets to become the first and default output over Analog, which gets you sound, but not at the jack you probably expected it to come out of.

So please check whether this is the case - possibly with interactive help (e.g. IRC) if needed

Just open up `alsamixer` with no arguments, which shows (the tuning knobs of) the device configured to be "default".

For enlightenment i'm much happier with pulse as the sound server as it has proper integration with e's mixer but yes opening alsa mixer shows that the hdmi interface is setup as the default and I probably could mess with it to get it working without pulse but pulse will do for now for the reasons mentioned above.

Do you have alsa-plugins-pulse package on your system? With this installed, and when $PULSEAUDIO_ENABLE="yes" in /etc/sysconfig/sound, alsa-lib will take pulse plugin as the default, too. So you'll see only one volume bar when running "alsamixer" without any argument. For adjusting /etc/sysconfig/sound, just run setup-pulseaudio --enable once. Then it'll set up the various sound backends to use PA as default. Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/30/2016 08:58 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

Simon Lees composed on 2016-03-30 19:19 (UTC+1030):

...

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

...

...

There are two classic reasons for "no sound":

...

...

...

[2.] - the hardware enumerates such that some digital output (HDMI, SPDIF) gets to become the first and default output over Analog, which gets you sound, but not at the jack you probably expected it to come out of.

...

...

...

So please check whether this is the case - possibly with interactive help (e.g. IRC) if needed

...

...

Just open up `alsamixer` with no arguments, which shows (the tuning knobs of) the device configured to be "default".

Or look at /proc/asound/cards.

...

For enlightenment i'm much happier with pulse as the sound server as it has proper integration with e's mixer but yes opening alsa mixer shows that the hdmi interface is setup as the default and I probably could mess with it to get it working without pulse but pulse will do for now for the reasons mentioned above.

When I had that problem, Takashi Iwai suggested I put

options snd-hda-intel index=1,0

into /etc/modprobe.d/99-local.conf. It worked, without installing more rpms.

Thanks for the idea but the point here is as the enlightenment maintainer I want people to have working audio in enlightenment without editing a conf file, as enlightenment is already being built with pulse audio support the number of additional rpm's was somewhere around 5 which is a number i'm ok with when taking into consideration the scope of other packages that get recommended with enlightenment. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adeliade Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B