[opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

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Andreas Jaeger

7 Jul 2007 7 Jul '07

14:27

Michael Löffler wrote on opensuse-announce:

...

Hi,

the survey we did on proprietary software can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/UX#Surveys

It shows that we ship on the media some software which is hardly used (e.g. PlanMaker, SEPsesam etc.). Software which is hardly used we don't neet to ship on our media. Therfor my suggestion is to drop some software totally and offer some software only via ftp. To be discussed on opensuse-project.

Best Michael

PS: The question on TexLive was confusing. TexLive is open source but we wanted to know the use of it as it needs meanwhile so much space.

So, Michael and myself *propose* the following actions: * Remove ARCAD completely since it does not work at all on x86-64 (see bug #248873) * Offer software that reached either > 80% on "Never" or less than 15 % on "Often" + "Very often" only via *ftp* with 10.3. The following software would be affected: Planmaker SEPsesam TextMaker TeXlive Moneyplex falls also under this role, due to its usecase we suggest to leave it on the media. What do you think? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform/openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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Alberto Passalacqua

7 Jul 7 Jul

16:02

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

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* Offer software that reached either > 80% on "Never" or less than 15 % on "Often" + "Very often" only via *ftp* with 10.3. The following software would be affected: Planmaker SEPsesam TextMaker TeXlive

Hello, I agree with you about ARCAD, Planmaker, SEPsesam and TextMaker. But I think a LaTeX edition should be available also on some media. I think it's selected at installation time by a lot of university/research users, so it might be worth to keep it. I know it's big, but that's the reason I'd prefer to have it on media to avoid long or repetitive downloads if you do multiple installations. With kind regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange

19:11

On Sat July 7 2007 10:02, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

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TeXlive

Hello, I agree with you about ARCAD, Planmaker, SEPsesam and TextMaker. But I think a LaTeX edition should be available also on some media.

I think it's selected at installation time by a lot of university/research users, so it might be worth to keep it. I know it's big, but that's the reason I'd prefer to have it on media to avoid long or repetitive downloads if you do multiple installations.

Alberto, They are talking about TexLive (http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/ctanPackageInformation.py?id=texlive), which is a 1GB iso image that allows you to run Tex directly from a DVD on another computer. All the other Latex and Tex related packages for running in your own openSuse machine would remain in the installation media. -- Carlos FL Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

19:51

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

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Alberto, They are talking about TexLive (http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/ctanPackageInformation.py?id=texlive), which is a 1GB iso image that allows you to run Tex directly from a DVD on another computer. All the other Latex and Tex related packages for running in your own openSuse machine would remain in the installation media.

Hello Carlos, this is not exactly what I understood in status meetings. For example here: http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Status_Meeting_2007-04-25/transcript Andreas said they are switching from tetex to TeXLive: [quote] (18:02:44) <AJaeger> Currently the major change is the switch to TeXlive - from teTeX. (18:03:10) <AJaeger> It's done for most of the trivial stuff, now come some more esoteric packages. [/quote] Moreover, I would not see the point of including a live edition of TeX on the DVD/CD's of the distribution. They're going to include only binaries, fonts and packages necessary to run LaTeX. That's why I commented ;-) With kind regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange

8 Jul 8 Jul

05:10

On Sat July 7 2007 13:51, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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Hello Carlos, this is not exactly what I understood in status meetings. For example here:

http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Status_Meeting_2007-04-25/transcript

Andreas said they are switching from tetex to TeXLive:

[quote]

(18:02:44) <AJaeger> Currently the major change is the switch to TeXlive - from teTeX. (18:03:10) <AJaeger> It's done for most of the trivial stuff, now come some more esoteric packages. [/quote]

Moreover, I would not see the point of including a live edition of TeX on the DVD/CD's of the distribution. They're going to include only binaries, fonts and packages necessary to run LaTeX. That's why I commented ;-)

Oh, no. I was not aware of that. Thanks for point it out. I thought TexLive was in addition to teTex. I will change my vote on the other limb of the thread, because I need Latex badly and I make all my students use it. -- Carlos FL Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bernhard Walle

7 Jul 7 Jul

16:08

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

* Andreas Jaeger [2007-07-07 16:27]:

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TeXlive

Also the DVD in the box? Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange

19:24

On Sat July 7 2007 10:08, Bernhard Walle wrote:

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* Andreas Jaeger [2007-07-07 16:27]:

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TeXlive

Also the DVD in the box?

As the discussion in this enhancement suggestion shows: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=263606 the box will not contain everything, because of the cost of the media, but it may be a case for offering TexLive on the additional DVD that could be offered as Torrent (see comment #26). -- Carlos FL Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Nikolay Derkach

16:21

В сообщении от Saturday 07 July 2007 18:27:42 Andreas Jaeger написал(а):

...

Michael Löffler wrote on opensuse-announce:

...
Hi,

the survey we did on proprietary software can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/UX#Surveys

It shows that we ship on the media some software which is hardly used (e.g. PlanMaker, SEPsesam etc.). Software which is hardly used we don't neet to ship on our media. Therfor my suggestion is to drop some software totally and offer some software only via ftp. To be discussed on opensuse-project.

Best Michael

PS: The question on TexLive was confusing. TexLive is open source but we wanted to know the use of it as it needs meanwhile so much space.

So, Michael and myself *propose* the following actions:

* Remove ARCAD completely since it does not work at all on x86-64 (see bug #248873)

* Offer software that reached either > 80% on "Never" or less than 15 % on "Often" + "Very often" only via *ftp* with 10.3. The following software would be affected: Planmaker SEPsesam TextMaker TeXlive

Moneyplex falls also under this role, due to its usecase we suggest to leave it on the media.

What do you think?

Andreas

I think it's impossible to decide if this or that program should left the media since we don't know the final media layout for 10.3 Does that mean that we stick to 6cd + kde/gnome 1cd variant or do you consider questions raised by bug #276018? Anyway regardless of the media size and layout I support dropping outdated, buggy and hardly used software. -- Regards, Nikolay Derkach --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange

19:25

On Sat July 7 2007 08:27, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

* Remove ARCAD completely since it does not work at all on x86-64 (see bug #248873)

* Offer software that reached either > 80% on "Never" or less than 15 % on "Often" + "Very often" only via *ftp* with 10.3. The following software would be affected: Planmaker SEPsesam TextMaker TeXlive

Moneyplex falls also under this role, due to its usecase we suggest to leave it on the media.

What do you think?

Agreed. -- Carlos FL Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos F Lange

8 Jul 8 Jul

09:36

On Sat July 7 2007 13:25, Carlos F Lange wrote:

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On Sat July 7 2007 08:27, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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TextMaker TeXlive

What do you think?

I change my vote. I thought TexLive was in addition to teTex, the usual Latex package. As Alberto pointed out, there is talk about removing it. There is no replacement for Latex in terms of scientific text editing. Many international scientific journals have standard Latex styles/packages (all of the American Institute of Physics, for example) and we also have a standard style package for thesis at our university (Univ. of Alberta). I make all my graduate students and post-docs write their manuscripts and thesis in Latex and several of my colleagues do the same. The colleagues that use Windows pay license fee for use of WinEdt, while we proudly sing the praises of Kyle+built-in Latex in openSuse. I think we need a Latex package, such as teTex. Given that (and only in this case), TexLive would be superfluous. -- Carlos FL Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

16:45

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

Maybe CTAN usage statistics can help the decision. Someone thinks noone uses LaTeX, but I think the numbers are interesting, considering it's a specific tool: http://www.ctan.org/usage/ftp/usage_200706.html To give an idea, in June 2007: Total Hits: 1675377 Hits per Hour - Avg: 2326 - Max: 14167 Visits per Day: Avg: 2799 - Max: 4359 KBytes per Day: Avg: 54182838 - Max: 95443318 Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

9 Jul 9 Jul

11:57

Am Sonntag 08 Juli 2007 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:

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Maybe CTAN usage statistics can help the decision. Someone thinks noone uses LaTeX, but I think the numbers are interesting, considering it's a specific tool:

http://www.ctan.org/usage/ftp/usage_200706.html

To give an idea, in June 2007:

Total Hits: 1675377 Hits per Hour - Avg: 2326 - Max: 14167 Visits per Day: Avg: 2799 - Max: 4359 KBytes per Day: Avg: 54182838 - Max: 95443318

Yeah, and most of these KBytes are spent by people downloading it for windows and MacOSX. And the question here is not if we make it impossible to use LaTeX for opensuse users. We discuss here if it takes a download or not to install it. And I don't think today's LaTeX users have a huge problem downloading it. Just as all these windows and MacOS users haven't. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bernhard Walle

12:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

* Stephan Kulow [2007-07-09 13:57]:

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Am Sonntag 08 Juli 2007 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:

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Maybe CTAN usage statistics can help the decision. Someone thinks noone uses LaTeX, but I think the numbers are interesting, considering it's a specific tool:

http://www.ctan.org/usage/ftp/usage_200706.html

To give an idea, in June 2007:

Total Hits: 1675377 Hits per Hour - Avg: 2326 - Max: 14167 Visits per Day: Avg: 2799 - Max: 4359 KBytes per Day: Avg: 54182838 - Max: 95443318

Yeah, and most of these KBytes are spent by people downloading it for windows and MacOSX.

Yes, because Linux users download it from their distribution.

...

And the question here is not if we make it impossible to use LaTeX for opensuse users. We discuss here if it takes a download or not to install it. And I don't think today's LaTeX users have a huge problem downloading it. Just as all these windows and MacOS users haven't.

So why do we make a DVD at all? Just one CD for the installation and the rest can be downloaded from FTP. At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP? Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

12:19

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

Il giorno lun, 09/07/2007 alle 14.11 +0200, Bernhard Walle ha scritto:

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At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP?

This is exactly my point of view. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg

12:25

Hi, On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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Il giorno lun, 09/07/2007 alle 14.11 +0200, Bernhard Walle ha scritto:

...

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At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP?

This is exactly my point of view.

Very much seconded. And the cost of an additional DVD would easily get compensated by a sticker "everything included". Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Stephan Kulow

12:21

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

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So why do we make a DVD at all? Just one CD for the installation and the rest can be downloaded from FTP. At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP? "the user" is pretty hard to grasp. And yes, if "the user" had to download "all" via FTP, it would be pointless to sell a DVD. But if roughly a third of users have to download tex when they need it, it sounds still like a good deal.

And to avoid any kind of miscalculation: the DVD9 has two architectures. So you get 2 texlive versions with it - but most of tex is noarch and is shared between them. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bernhard Walle

12:35

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

* Stephan Kulow [2007-07-09 14:21]:

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Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

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So why do we make a DVD at all? Just one CD for the installation and the rest can be downloaded from FTP. At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP? "the user" is pretty hard to grasp. And yes, if "the user" had to download "all" via FTP, it would be pointless to sell a DVD. But if roughly a third of users have to download tex when they need it, it sounds still like a good deal.

So why do we have KOffice on the DVD? I don't think that KOffice is used by 1/3 of the openSUSE users. I never met people that use KOffice (except maybe here in the SUSE offices), but I met a lot that use TeX. And the fact that TeX Live needs a lot of DVD space is a reason *why* I want to see it included in the DVD that is in the box. It's not a problem to download a package of 10-20 MiB even with a weak internet connection. But it *is* for a package of 500 MiB. Even for DSL 2000 it's a bit annoying. Not a big problem, but annoying. Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Leineweber

17:05

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Bernhard Walle schrieb:

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* Stephan Kulow [2007-07-09 14:21]:

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Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

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So why do we make a DVD at all? Just one CD for the installation and the rest can be downloaded from FTP. At least it should be on the DVD9. Or what's the point of buying the box if the user has do download all via FTP? "the user" is pretty hard to grasp. And yes, if "the user" had to download "all" via FTP, it would be pointless to sell a DVD. But if roughly a third of users have to download tex when they need it, it sounds still like a good deal.

So why do we have KOffice on the DVD? I don't think that KOffice is used by 1/3 of the openSUSE users. I never met people that use KOffice (except maybe here in the SUSE offices), but I met a lot that use TeX.

And the fact that TeX Live needs a lot of DVD space is a reason *why* I want to see it included in the DVD that is in the box. It's not a problem to download a package of 10-20 MiB even with a weak internet connection. But it *is* for a package of 500 MiB. Even for DSL 2000 it's a bit annoying. Not a big problem, but annoying.

I think the openSUSE version of TeXlive could be splitted into small packages, like Debian does. They have: 28 packages concerning languages (texlive-lang) 13 packages extra (texlive-extra) 22 packages with documentation in different languages (texlive-doc) 10 binary packages (texlive-bin) 12 meta-packages for different subsets of all above Perhaps not all packages can make it onto the DVD and some more esoteric ones are only within the repository. So, it does not necessarily need the whole 500MB on the DVD. But I'd be very disappointed, if TeX/LaTeX would be available only via ftp. Best regards, Thomas Leineweber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Donn Washburn

21:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

Question was: So why do we have KOffice on the DVD? koffice is needed by kmymoney. Because likdchart is in koffice Another words -> dependences for at least one example. -- 73 de Donn Washburn 307 Savoy Street Email: " n5xwb@hal-pc.org " Sugar Land, TX 77478 LL# 1.281.242.3256 Ham Callsign N5XWB HAMs : " n5xwb@arrl.net " VoIP via Gizmo: bmw_87kbike / via Skype: n5xwbg BMW MOA #: 4146 - Ambassador " http://counter.li.org " #279316 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner

10 Jul 10 Jul

06:26

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

On Monday, 9. July 2007 23:11:11 Donn Washburn wrote:

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Question was: So why do we have KOffice on the DVD?

How about: "because parts of it are in the default KDE installation"? Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner

06:43

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

On Monday, 9. July 2007 23:11:11 Donn Washburn wrote:

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koffice is needed by kmymoney. Because likdchart is in koffice

Dunno how you got that idea, that's wrong. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard Guenther

11:15

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Donn Washburn wrote:

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Question was: So why do we have KOffice on the DVD?

koffice is needed by kmymoney. Because likdchart is in koffice Another words -> dependences for at least one example.

So fix the packaging instead. Or, who needs kmymoney? Richard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robison, Jonathon (M.)

13:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

That seems like one freekin' huge dependency just for a money manager. Shouldn't we consider re-packaging kmymoney with the needed libraries already in it? Jonathon M. Robison "There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who know binary, and those who don't" -----Original Message----- From: Donn Washburn [mailto:n5xwb@hal-pc.org] Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 5:11 PM To: opensuse factory list Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey Question was: So why do we have KOffice on the DVD? koffice is needed by kmymoney. Because likdchart is in koffice Another words -> dependences for at least one example. -- 73 de Donn Washburn 307 Savoy Street Email: " n5xwb@hal-pc.org " Sugar Land, TX 77478 LL# 1.281.242.3256 Ham Callsign N5XWB HAMs : " n5xwb@arrl.net " VoIP via Gizmo: bmw_87kbike / via Skype: n5xwbg BMW MOA #: 4146 - Ambassador " http://counter.li.org " #279316 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

15:42

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

"Robison, Jonathon (M.)" writes:

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That seems like one freekin' huge dependency just for a money manager. Shouldn't we consider re-packaging kmymoney with the needed libraries already in it?

This will cause problems with updates - you forget that there's another library to fix. And it will add duplicates for those that install both. In general you break out the dependency from koffice so that you can install kmymoney with that dependency only. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform/openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Stephan Binner

11 Jul 11 Jul

06:14

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey

On Tuesday 10 July 2007 17:42:45 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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That seems like one freekin' huge dependency just for a money manager. Shouldn't we consider re-packaging kmymoney with the needed libraries In general you break out the dependency from koffice so that you can install kmymoney with that dependency only.

Can we please discuss/address that problem when it exists in openSUSE? :-) The kmymoney in Factory does not depend on KOffice. Donn seems to run some KMoney 0.9 development version snapshot package from Packman. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner

10 Jul 10 Jul

06:47

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

On Monday, 9. July 2007 19:05:14 Thomas Leineweber wrote:

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I think the openSUSE version of TeXlive could be splitted into small packages, like Debian does. They have:

Do you have a list how big these packages are and which would be required for a working usual TeX installation? Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

07:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Dienstag 10 Juli 2007 schrieb Stephan Binner:

...

On Monday, 9. July 2007 19:05:14 Thomas Leineweber wrote:

...
I think the openSUSE version of TeXlive could be splitted into small packages, like Debian does. They have:

Do you have a list how big these packages are and which would be required for a working usual TeX installation?

I need to give you a quick tutorial how to use debian.suse.de sometimes :) debian:~# apt-get install texlive-latex-recommended Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: tex-common texlive-base texlive-base-bin texlive-common texlive-doc-base texlive-latex-base Recommended packages: dvipdfmx lmodern prosper latex-beamer latex-xcolor The following NEW packages will be installed: tex-common texlive-base texlive-base-bin texlive-common texlive-doc-base texlive-latex-base texlive-latex-recommended 0 upgraded, 7 newly installed, 0 to remove and 218 not upgraded. Need to get 0B/65.9MB of archives. Or if you only want the bare minimum: debian:~# apt-get install texlive-latex-base Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree... Done The following extra packages will be installed: tex-common texlive-base texlive-base-bin texlive-common texlive-doc-base Recommended packages: dvipdfmx lmodern The following NEW packages will be installed: tex-common texlive-base texlive-base-bin texlive-common texlive-doc-base texlive-latex-base 0 upgraded, 6 newly installed, 0 to remove and 218 not upgraded. Need to get 0B/45.9MB of archives. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

12 Jul 12 Jul

14:33

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Thomas Leineweber:

...

Perhaps not all packages can make it onto the DVD and some more esoteric ones are only within the repository. So, it does not necessarily need the whole 500MB on the DVD. But I'd be very disappointed, if TeX/LaTeX would be available only via ftp. Do you (or someone else) feel like suggesting concrete patches against our texlive.spec ? It sounds like a good idea and I'm sure Werner is happy to have help there.

Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Leineweber

15:44

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Stephan Kulow schrieb:

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Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Thomas Leineweber:

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Perhaps not all packages can make it onto the DVD and some more esoteric ones are only within the repository. So, it does not necessarily need the whole 500MB on the DVD. But I'd be very disappointed, if TeX/LaTeX would be available only via ftp. Do you (or someone else) feel like suggesting concrete patches against our texlive.spec ? It sounds like a good idea and I'm sure Werner is happy to have help there.

Sure. I will have a look at them. I am not very experienced in packaging, but I will try. The base should be texlive in factory? Or is there another opensuse texlive floating around? Thomas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

15:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Donnerstag 12 Juli 2007 schrieb Thomas Leineweber:

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Stephan Kulow schrieb:

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Am Montag 09 Juli 2007 schrieb Thomas Leineweber:

...
Perhaps not all packages can make it onto the DVD and some more esoteric ones are only within the repository. So, it does not necessarily need the whole 500MB on the DVD. But I'd be very disappointed, if TeX/LaTeX would be available only via ftp.

Do you (or someone else) feel like suggesting concrete patches against our texlive.spec ? It sounds like a good idea and I'm sure Werner is happy to have help there.

Sure. I will have a look at them. I am not very experienced in packaging, but I will try. The base should be texlive in factory? Or is there another opensuse texlive floating around? No, factory.

Manfred Tremmel

10 Jul 10 Jul

11:51

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Montag, 9. Juli 2007 14:35 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

...

So why do we have KOffice on the DVD?

I'm using KOffice every day. It's fast, well integrated in KDE and includes all functions I need. I'm using OOo only for MS-Office documents (import filter are much better then in KOffice). -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

9 Jul 9 Jul

12:20

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

Il giorno lun, 09/07/2007 alle 13.57 +0200, Stephan Kulow ha scritto:

...

And the question here is not if we make it impossible to use LaTeX for opensuse users. We discuss here if it takes a download or not to install it.

The question is quite clear. The reasons are not, at least to me. I don't think the survey is so representative to remove an application used somehow by > 25% of users. Why this space is necessary? I mean, I know openSUSE switched to TeXLive, which is bigger than tetex. But are there other reasons for the increased need of space? How other distributions can provide TeX (fedora, mandriva, ...) on the DVD? With kind regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner

10 Jul 10 Jul

06:35

On Monday, 9. July 2007 14:20:47 Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

openSUSE switched to TeXLive, which is bigger than tetex. [..] How other distributions can provide TeX (fedora, mandriva, ...) on the DVD?

Strange question: current Fedora does include TeTex (dunno about Mandriva), I doubt that you know yet how they will handle the bigger TeX Live in Fedora 8. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Binner

06:32

On Sunday, 8. July 2007 11:36:10 Carlos F Lange wrote:

...

I change my vote. I thought TexLive was in addition to teTex, the usual Latex package. As Alberto pointed out, there is talk about removing it.

Correct, TeX Live supersedes TeTeX and does not enhance it. Bye, Steve --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bernhard Walle

7 Jul 7 Jul

20:30

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

* Andreas Jaeger [2007-07-07 16:27]:

...

TeXlive

No TeX distribution in the DVD set? Please not. The survey is *not* representative, and why should a TeX user take part at all if a survey is titled 'Proprietary Software'? It was IMO *very* hidden that TeX is in it. And TeX users are not people that read the openSUSE news every few days ... Please consider not only people coming from Windows as the target of openSUSE but also people who have been using Unix for a long time, mostly in the academic segment. I'm sure there are KDE and GNOME toys on the CD which have less users. Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Michal Marek

9 Jul 9 Jul

06:23

Bernhard Walle wrote:

...

* Andreas Jaeger [2007-07-07 16:27]:

...
TeXlive

No TeX distribution in the DVD set? Please not.

The survey is *not* representative, and why should a TeX user take part at all if a survey is titled 'Proprietary Software'? It was IMO *very* hidden that TeX is in it. And TeX users are not people that read the openSUSE news every few days ...

+1 I'd add that from the list Andreas posted, TeX still has the best score (Sometimes: 17.6%, Often: 5.1% Very Often: 5.9%). Also, I haven't seen anyone in this thread missing any of the other three packages. Sure, opensuse-factory subscribers aren't a representative group either, but... :) Michal (occasional LaTeX user) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Daniel Bornkessel

08:59

On Saturday 07 July 2007 22:30:12 Bernhard Walle wrote:

...

* Andreas Jaeger [2007-07-07 16:27]:

...
TeXlive

No TeX distribution in the DVD set? Please not.

The survey is *not* representative, and why should a TeX user take part at all if a survey is titled 'Proprietary Software'? It was IMO *very* hidden that TeX is in it. And TeX users are not people that read the openSUSE news every few days ...

I agree ... removing the TeX distribution would in my opinion be a bad idea.

...

Please consider not only people coming from Windows as the target of openSUSE but also people who have been using Unix for a long time, mostly in the academic segment.

I'm sure there are KDE and GNOME toys on the CD which have less users.

Thanks, Bernhard --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

12:03

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

Am Samstag 07 Juli 2007 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

...

I'm sure there are KDE and GNOME toys on the CD which have less users.

Definitly! But they might not take 300MB. In that sense TeX is far from being a toy. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard Guenther

10 Jul 10 Jul

11:13

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietarysoftware in openSUSE

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Am Samstag 07 Juli 2007 schrieb Bernhard Walle:

...
I'm sure there are KDE and GNOME toys on the CD which have less users.

Definitly! But they might not take 300MB. In that sense TeX is far from being a toy.

Eh. While including all of TexLive on the DVD may not be necessary I absolutely think it's the worst idea ever to drop all of it. Richard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Volker Kuhlmann

7 Jul 7 Jul

22:34

On Sun 08 Jul 2007 02:27:42 NZST +1200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

TeXlive

...

What do you think?

I just put a dent in my head from hitting the roof over an absence of LaTeX from the DVD... Yes it's big, that's why having it on DVD helps. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

8 Jul 8 Jul

13:14

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 10:34 +1200, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:

...

On Sun 08 Jul 2007 02:27:42 NZST +1200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
TeXlive

...
What do you think?

I just put a dent in my head from hitting the roof over an absence of LaTeX from the DVD... Yes it's big, that's why having it on DVD helps.

Volker

Gentleman, I would like to point out that the teXlive\Tex\LaTex debate seems to be concerned with a relatively small group(in a world domination approach of distribution, which openSUSE needs) of university\scientific users. This program group seems to take enough space to be on it's own CD\DVD. As openSUSE moves towards the idea that the base install should meet the needs of a larger group, i.e Home Users, some of the current groups are going to have to accept that there favorite program will need to be on an "Add-On" product CD\DVD. This, as I am sure the Devs will agree, will mean that the current high quality of integration of these programs that get moved to these "Add-on" CD\DVD's will remain or improve. In terms of sharing them, this will increase the ease in which you distribute the programs to your students \ co-workers by alleviating the requirement that you have to distribute and entire distro to your students \ co-workers. Your schools \ departments could simply start saying openSUSE X.x or SLED X.x are necessary to take part in course X \ work in department X, much like they do now for other topics, and you then hand out the Tex\TeXlive DVD. We as community members are responsible to the distribution and it's well being,(that old "the good of many" thing) and in order for openSUSE to move forward it must make life easier for a much bigger group, as the 1-cd install idea does. The entire ecosystem of Linux is growing and it is going to end up resembling the w32 ecosystem in several ways, 1) Distro's will be devoted to getting the hardware, UI and some base \common features installed 2) projects are going to have to produce their own installation media\RPM\deb's or use things like the "Build Service" to do so. 3) distribution groups are going to supply the niche groups with "Add-On" product media and download sources, such as other industries offer a line of products. These are inevitable changes, so instead or mourning a change in how our own group needs are being met, let's applaud the team for meeting the needs of more groups and keeping openSUSE viable in a growing\evolving environment. I don't take the time to say "Thank You" often enough so.... THANK YOU ! THANK YOU ! THANK YOU ! -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

16:30

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 09.14 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:

...

Gentleman, I would like to point out that the teXlive\Tex\LaTex debate seems to be concerned with a relatively small group(in a world domination approach of distribution, which openSUSE needs) of university\scientific users.

I really think it's important to keep existing users before thinking to the world domination, which is, however, far if it will ever happen. Excluding packages like LaTeX from media means excluding from the user base an important group of users: students, teachers, university labs. They won't accept to install LaTeX on each machine separately. You've to keep in mind that in many universities PC's are directly maintained by users and not by admins. Plus, universities and research centres are where students (future users) get in contact with Linux. Do you think they will choose a distribution which requires additional media to use LaTeX (many teachers and scientific papers requires it) or a distribution which allows to install it comfortably at the installation time?

...

This program group seems to take enough space to be on it's own CD\DVD. As openSUSE moves towards the idea that the base install should meet the needs of a larger group, i.e Home Users, some of the current groups are going to have to accept that there favorite program will need to be on an "Add-On" product CD\DVD.

We are not talking of creating an additional DVD or CD. We are talking about leaving LaTeX only on FTP.

...

In terms of sharing them, this will increase the ease in which you distribute the programs to your students \ co-workers by alleviating the requirement that you have to distribute and entire distro to your students \ co-workers. Your schools \ departments could simply start saying openSUSE X.x or SLED X.x are necessary to take part in course X \ work in department X, much like they do now for other topics, and you then hand out the Tex\TeXlive DVD.

Right. I see the freedom in forcing someone to use OpenSUSE or SLED because someone else decided. The original idea was to use Linux (what distribution I like) and I will find the software I need because it works on all distributions. It's one of the principles which brought Linux to be what it is today.

...

We as community members are responsible to the distribution and it's well being,(that old "the good of many" thing) and in order for openSUSE to move forward it must make life easier for a much bigger group, as the 1-cd install idea does.

Right. Let the home users use the 1 CD install. And put what UNIX and Linux users want and expect to be part of the distribution on the DVD. To win, Linux has to be accessible to everyone (another basic principle), also those without a fast connection, and they're a lot, for various reasons. That's why it's important to have at least one "complete" set of media. With kind regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

03:27

On Saturday 07 July 2007 09:27, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Michael Löffler wrote on opensuse-announce:

...
Hi,

the survey we did on proprietary software can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/UX#Surveys

It shows that we ship on the media some software which is hardly used (e.g. PlanMaker, SEPsesam etc.). Software which is hardly used we don't neet to ship on our media. Therfor my suggestion is to drop some software totally and offer some software only via ftp. To be discussed on opensuse-project.

Best Michael

PS: The question on TexLive was confusing. TexLive is open source but we wanted to know the use of it as it needs meanwhile so much space.

So, Michael and myself *propose* the following actions:

* Remove ARCAD completely since it does not work at all on x86-64 (see bug #248873)

It has also problem to recognize that it runs on dual screen which is, for the type of program, serious problem.

...

* Offer software that reached either > 80% on "Never" or less than 15 % on "Often" + "Very often" only via *ftp* with 10.3. The following software would be affected: Planmaker SEPsesam

TeXlive

Moneyplex falls also under this role, due to its usecase we suggest to leave it on the media.

What do you think?

Andreas

I would bring up again idea to create add on media or FTP snapshot. Add on can go with retail version and/or media that one can order separately online, FTP snapshot as online order only. It shouldn't be big problem to create media after online purchase. Many companies that produce small series of software use burners to produce media after customer order is confirmed. I don't know price details, but it shouldn't be big problem for SUSE too. The effort to squeeze as much as possible on limited media has it's cost too. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robison, Jonathon (M.)

9 Jul 9 Jul

12:50

Excellent idea. So long as they ARE available to those who need them, this sounds like a good all-around solution. Jonathon M. Robison ET, ITI "There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who know binary, and those who don't" -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Jaeger [mailto:aj@suse.de] Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 10:28 AM To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE Michael Löffler wrote on opensuse-announce:

...

Hi,

the survey we did on proprietary software can be found here: http://en.opensuse.org/UX#Surveys

It shows that we ship on the media some software which is hardly used (e.g. PlanMaker, SEPsesam etc.). Software which is hardly used we don't neet to ship on our media. Therfor my suggestion is to drop some software totally and offer some software only via ftp. To be discussed on opensuse-project.

Best Michael

PS: The question on TexLive was confusing. TexLive is open source but we wanted to know the use of it as it needs meanwhile so much space.

James Tremblay

13:46

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

I believe a complete restructuring of openSUSE's delivery should be considered. To provide as little difference between the download and the retail versions as possible should be the goal, And there are differences. check the bug https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=282531 there are differences even the devs forget. my proposal is no dvd: cd1 kde or gnome base install cd2 OS extension, rest of yast and anything that could be called as an underlying dependency to an application. cd3 server applications i.e apache2,mysql,etc cd4 server applications that rely on cd3 cdx0 more server applications cdX1 desktop applications, this could be more than one cd if catagories demand the space. It could also include the EDU-CD cdX2 non-oss cdX3 etc This way a person downloading would only need to choose the desktop and what they want to accomplish beyond that. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

10 Jul 10 Jul

10:56

Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable. I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following: * The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space) * During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download * The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive * For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

James Tremblay

11:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 12:56 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable.

I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following:

* The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space)

* During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download

* The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive

* For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do.

Andreas

This is a valuable step forward! -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

11:11

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

It sounds great! :-) Bye, Alberto Il giorno mar, 10/07/2007 alle 12.56 +0200, Andreas Jaeger ha scritto:

...

Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable.

I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following:

* The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space)

* During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download

* The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive

* For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do.

Andreas

Richard Guenther

11:18

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable.

I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following:

* The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space)

* During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download

* The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive

* For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do.

What's the point of still creating the 5 CDs / DVD5 if we now have the 1 CD GNOME/KDE images? Richard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

11:28

Richard Guenther writes:

...

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable.

I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following:

* The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space)

* During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download

* The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive

* For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do.

What's the point of still creating the 5 CDs / DVD5 if we now have the 1 CD GNOME/KDE images?

That's the discussion we wanted to start once we have the 1 CD GNOME/KDE images for all architectures. ;-) We currently have it only for i386 - x86-64 and ppc are the next ones where we have to see whether we get everything on the media. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Druid

18:44

...

...
What's the point of still creating the 5 CDs / DVD5 if we now have the 1 CD GNOME/KDE images?

The question is why isnt the one cd kde the first CD of the 5-cd set, instead of being yet another media, thats much more sensible to me... I believe the answer is that we have to have damn gnome, even though everybody knows that opensuse is a kde distro with kde users... gnome could be in cd2, for example... This will confuse more people... And just so I can say Im not completely offtopic, I have to say that any effort in the direction of keeping tex related packages in the media will make academic users much much much more happier with opensuse. The idea of not having it seemed pretty silly to me. regards Marcio Ferreira --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

22:36

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 16:44 -0200, Druid wrote:

...

...
...
What's the point of still creating the 5 CDs / DVD5 if we now have the 1 CD GNOME/KDE images?

The question is why isnt the one cd kde the first CD of the 5-cd set, instead of being yet another media, thats much more sensible to me...

I believe the answer is that we have to have damn gnome, even though everybody knows that opensuse is a kde distro with kde users... gnome could be in cd2, for example...

please, This a about choice, there are two CD 1's each will take you to the full installation of your choice. Each will also give you a fully running "base" level 5 install of the desktop so that network administrators like myself can build a local installation and patch repository and add what we need rather than trying to image machines with a mutli gig install of everything. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Druid

11 Jul 11 Jul

13:55

...

...
please, This a about choice, there are two CD 1's each will take you to the full installation of your choice. Each will also give you a fully

If it was about choice, I demand the wmaker one cd, and the xfce one cd... Lets speak the english clear here, right? Lets not try to put smoke in the scene and do some doo-woop magic and say its about choice and bla bla bla. Cause it is not. Its a weight we have to carry, and its exactly the way Ive said. It is not about choice, its about having to have gnome. Again: there is no reason to not have kde one cd as the first of the 5-dics set, and leaving gnome to the 2nd cd, except for the only reason I ahve cited. Its not about choice, its not about anything you have said. And this one-cd thing is for desktop users, not for system administrators... This was done to emulate ubuntu behavior and maybe shut-up the ubuntu fanboys crowd (which is not going to happen, of course)... As its a cyclic behavior since 9.1 infamous personal iso, in next release people will complain one cd is too few and incomplete, and will ask for the 14 cd pack... Let us not hijack this thread, btw... Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

16:36

Druid writes:

...

...
...
please, This a about choice, there are two CD 1's each will take you to the full installation of your choice. Each will also give you a fully

If it was about choice, I demand the wmaker one cd, and the xfce one cd... Lets speak the english clear here, right? Lets not try to put smoke in the scene and do some doo-woop magic and say its about choice and bla bla bla. Cause it is not. Its a weight we have to carry, and its exactly the way Ive said.

It is not about choice, its about having to have gnome. Again: there

Let me make perfectly clear that openSUSE is not a KDE distribution and neither a GNOME distribution - it's a distribution for everyone. It was always a strong KDE distribution and continues to be so. It always contained both GNOME and KDE - and continues to do so. I'm glad that it contains now a polished GNOME as well as a polished KDE. Our last survey showed that more than 20 per cent of our users choose GNOME. This is not the majority but a strong enough group that I will not tread them as second class citizien as you suggest - and do not consider them a "weight to carry". We want to grow our distribution and therefore have to offer various desktops to attract users. It's not about having to have GNOME - it's about wanting to have the best desktops environments to attract developers and users. Btw. WindowMaker and XFCE users are far less and developers can create their own one CD if they want - and make it available.

...

is no reason to not have kde one cd as the first of the 5-dics set, and leaving gnome to the 2nd cd, except for the only reason I ahve cited. Its not about choice, its not about anything you have said.

Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform/openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Druid

16:48

...

...
It is not about choice, its about having to have gnome. Again: there

Let me make perfectly clear that openSUSE is not a KDE distribution and

Thanks for clarifying, aj, I must have confused something, probably about opensuse being a kde distribution... end of thread regards Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robison, Jonathon (M.)

10 Jul 10 Jul

13:20

Ya gotta love a decisive guy! Well done AJ. Jonathon M. Robison "There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who know binary, and those who don't" -----Original Message----- From: Andreas Jaeger [mailto:aj@suse.de] Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 6:56 AM To: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE Thanks a lot for your feedback on TeXLive, this was valuable. I discussed further with Michael and we will do the following: * The 1 CD GNOME/KDE will not include TeXLive (definitely not enough space) * During installation the ftp tree will be added so that users can install TeXLive via download * The DVD9 in the box product will contain TeXLive * For the 5 CDs and the DVD5, we are currently looking at the available space and will then decide what to do. Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

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participants (19)

Alberto Passalacqua
Andreas Jaeger
Bernhard Walle
Carlos F Lange
Daniel Bornkessel
Donn Washburn
Druid
Eberhard Moenkeberg
James Tremblay
Manfred Tremmel
Michal Marek
Nikolay Derkach
Rajko M.
Richard Guenther
Robison, Jonathon (M.)
Stephan Binner
Stephan Kulow
Thomas Leineweber
Volker Kuhlmann