[opensuse-factory] Factory as a distro factory
As a rolling distro, I can't see Factory as the apropos name it was. It's now just an assembly plant, not a manufacturing plant, roughly equivalent to Fedora's post-branching TS builds. IMO, Tumbleweed, or something entirely different, ought to be the name applied going forward to the rolling release Factory. No longer will Factory be a good way to discover bugs, since ostensibly all but inconsequential or undiscoverable bugs have been squashed before acceptance of newer versions from BS into Factory. What the name "Factory" ought to be now is (a) recommended collection(s) of BS repos designed to do one of the things the old Factory did, enable user-testers to find the problems the builders missed or couldn't have found using the hardware at their disposal. Even without any name changing going forward, there still needs to be something describing a or several recommended BS repo collection(s) for those wishing to remain testers, at least a wiki page with a suitable name nicely describing what it's for, so people so desiring can continue to do everything they had been doing with Factory past (and still can with such as Cauldron, Rawhide or Sid). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/18/2014 09:14 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
As a rolling distro, I can't see Factory as the apropos name it was. It's now just an assembly plant, not a manufacturing plant, roughly equivalent to Fedora's post-branching TS builds. IMO, Tumbleweed, or something entirely different, ought to be the name applied going forward to the rolling release Factory.
No longer will Factory be a good way to discover bugs, since ostensibly all but inconsequential or undiscoverable bugs have been squashed before acceptance of newer versions from BS into Factory.
Automated testing through openQA can only catch the most obvious bugs that result in a system that cannot be installed or in which very basic applications fail to start. Believe me, there are still a lot of bugs in Factory waiting to be squashed. Machines are good at repetitive work (like testing an insane number of combinations of configuration options or installing the whole thing over and over) butI would say that openSUSE testers are more excited about catching more subtle things. Factory is still a funny place for human testers, specially those who want to tests specific things and not to find out every day if the whole thing has exploded again.
What the name "Factory" ought to be now is (a) recommended collection(s) of BS repos designed to do one of the things the old Factory did, enable user-testers to find the problems the builders missed or couldn't have found using the hardware at their disposal.
I would say that the target audience of Factory is now a little bit broader, but is still the right option for openSUSE packagers and developers as well as for testers.
Even without any name changing going forward, there still needs to be something describing a or several recommended BS repo collection(s) for those wishing to remain testers, at least a wiki page with a suitable name nicely describing what it's for, so people so desiring can continue to do everything they had been doing with Factory past (and still can with such as Cauldron, Rawhide or Sid).
You can run something more close to the previous Factory if you like by running factory-totest. Instructions are also in the Factory portal https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_installation Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa openSUSE Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi. Just a simple question: is this new Factory going to replace the current openSUSE or is it going to be a separate branch? Sorry, but I don't get it clear yet. Rumors saying than openSUSE will be a rolling release distro are starting to appear in blogs like when Tumbleweed came to life. It took a long time to let the people understand that Tumbleweed wasn't the rolling release of openSUSE but a repository with a bunch of packages updated and well tested. I think this should be clarified ASAP and wiki pages should be updated (if they aren't updated yet) to reflect what this new Factory will bring to us. Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, July 18, 2014 10:18:44 AM jcsl wrote:
Hi.
Just a simple question: is this new Factory going to replace the current openSUSE or is it going to be a separate branch?
I don't think so. Factory have much more entity now. Is a distribution by itself, but a new release of openSUSE will eventually use Factory as a base.
Sorry, but I don't get it clear yet. Rumors saying than openSUSE will be a rolling release distro are starting to appear in blogs like when Tumbleweed came to life.
There is a real thing here: Factory was always a rolling release, but was a bit break for some uses cases. Now Factory is more stable and, for example, I can do my daily work on it with some confidence. And also I know that there is a clear way to increase this confidence via more collaboration in openQA and package development.
It took a long time to let the people understand that Tumbleweed wasn't the rolling release of openSUSE but a repository with a bunch of packages updated and well tested.
I also learned that there are multiple definitions of what is a rolling distribution (via Wikipedia, of course).
I think this should be clarified ASAP and wiki pages should be updated (if they aren't updated yet) to reflect what this new Factory will bring to us.
Greetings.
-- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 10:38:36 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
It took a long time to let the people understand that Tumbleweed wasn't the rolling release of openSUSE but a repository
with a
bunch of packages updated and well tested.
I also learned that there are multiple definitions of what is a rolling distribution (via Wikipedia, of course).
Sure, but I guess that most of the times what people mean in this context is "all packages are updated continuously without a fixed release schedule". What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no openSUSE releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling version of openSUSE. Hence my doubts... Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Dne Pá 18. července 2014 12:51:18, jcsl napsal(a):
El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 10:38:36 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
It took a long time to let the people understand that Tumbleweed wasn't the rolling release of openSUSE but a repository
with a
bunch of packages updated and well tested.
I also learned that there are multiple definitions of what is a rolling distribution (via Wikipedia, of course).
Sure, but I guess that most of the times what people mean in this context is "all packages are updated continuously without a fixed release schedule". What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no openSUSE releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling version of openSUSE. Hence my doubts...
Greetings.
I dunno who rumored anything but in official communication we stated multiple times we didn't even start working on new approach for openSUSE releases. It is planned to start at the point new Factory is in place and working without much fuzz. As coolo said in one other threads he wanted to talk about it on openSUSE conference but there were not enough stakeholders in it so now he considers videoconf where we could move bit forward and think up something which will again be shown here...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no openSUSE releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling version of openSUSE. Hence my doubts...
And mine. And I'm scared stiff. If the normal openSUSE releases are stopped, then I'm out. Have to find another distro, plain as that... - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF0EAREIAAYFAlPJGK4ACgkQja8UbcUWM1w8GAD/Zp/555fJDkCm6srmX1HmcL3g 0cJT1fbr/6ZBTuQDvKwA91ZT2x1mgyLqUE9Jxu3qzA7uwaTcvMAjSMwsew32z2I= =9Mwc -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Friday, July 18, 2014 02:53:02 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no openSUSE releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling version of openSUSE. Hence my doubts...
And mine. And I'm scared stiff.
If the normal openSUSE releases are stopped, then I'm out. Have to find another distro, plain as that...
Uhmm I do not get why so many confusion here. We spend some time working on Factory, the base of openSUSE, to build a better, more stable and more reliable rolling distribution ever. The next version of openSUSE distribution will be based, so, in a better Factory. So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future, because the base is more curated, not that we are not going to have any openSUSE release anymore. Is sad how good news like 'we have the best Factory ever after changing the development model' can be translated into 'no more openSUSE' What we have is more, not less. Now the user (me) have the option to decide to use a no-movable distribution for daily work (openSUSE XX.X) or something that is really stable and blending edge and moveable (Factory). Easy. By the way, those rumors are from...?
-- Cheers Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
-- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 15:05:01 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 02:53:02 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no
openSUSE
releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling
version of
openSUSE. Hence my doubts...
And mine. And I'm scared stiff.
If the normal openSUSE releases are stopped, then I'm out. Have to
find
another distro, plain as that...
Uhmm I do not get why so many confusion here.
We spend some time working on Factory, the base of openSUSE, to build a better, more stable and more reliable rolling distribution ever.
The next version of openSUSE distribution will be based, so, in a better Factory. So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future, because the base is more curated, not that we are not going to have any openSUSE release anymore.
The problem here is that people read "rolling" and "distribution" and automatically say, "Hey, there will be no more openSUSE releases. From now on openSUSE will be a rolling release distribution only".
Is sad how good news like 'we have the best Factory ever after changing the development model' can be translated into 'no more openSUSE'
Exactly. That's what I want to cut from the roots before it get spread everywhere if it is the case.
What we have is more, not less. Now the user (me) have the option to decide to use a no-movable distribution for daily work (openSUSE XX.X) or something that is really stable and blending edge and moveable (Factory).
Easy.
That's what I understood and I really appreciate the efforts done in this direction. I may start using Factory in a netbook in the near future.
By the way, those rumors are from...?
At the moment I think I've read it in a couple of blogs (don't remember the sources, sorry), but we all know how fast things can be spread in the web. Maybe I myself contributed to the confusion in an opinion comment I did in a forum: "Goodbye Tumbleweed, hello Factory rolling?" (not in English, of course, XD), but the title clearly says "Factory rolling" (in the sense of a more mature and stable Factory). Here applies my first comment in this message. Personally, I don't have anything against a rolling openSUSE or the current model. If it fits my needs I'll continue using openSUSE, and if it doesn't I'll look other ways. Greetings. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
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El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 15:05:01 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 02:53:02 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
Uhmm I do not get why so many confusion here.
We spend some time working on Factory, the base of openSUSE, to build a better, more stable and more reliable rolling distribution ever.
The next version of openSUSE distribution will be based, so, in a better Factory. So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future, because the base is more curated, not that we are not going to have any openSUSE release anymore.
That's what needs to be clearly stated, that the standard openSUSE release stays.
The problem here is that people read "rolling" and "distribution" and automatically say, "Hey, there will be no more openSUSE releases. From now on openSUSE will be a rolling release distribution only".
Yes, that's what I have been reading.
Is sad how good news like 'we have the best Factory ever after changing the development model' can be translated into 'no more openSUSE'
Exactly. That's what I want to cut from the roots before it get spread everywhere if it is the case.
Absolutely!
What we have is more, not less. Now the user (me) have the option to decide to use a no-movable distribution for daily work (openSUSE XX.X) or something that is really stable and blending edge and moveable (Factory).
Easy.
That's what I understood and I really appreciate the efforts done in this direction. I may start using Factory in a netbook in the near future.
Yes, the efforts going into improving factory are wonderful, no doubt.
By the way, those rumors are from...?
Well, Greg KH said so here, for instance. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPJJ+YACgkQja8UbcUWM1w9iwD+NKXMrIL53oE2CUEfU8n+ATrk Cud6J8ko0yi3/YGgAN4A/3hiEytvQyinLhjqRSoqwMFyZYwAv3goL5r5kM71+ysj =j4tc -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2014-07-18 15:57 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
On 2014-07-18 15:05 (GMT+0200) Alberto Planas Dominguez composed:
...So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future...
That's what needs to be clearly stated, that the standard openSUSE release stays.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap was last updated by Mathletic on 29 May. Is that, combined with Alberto's statement, not clear enough? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
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https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap was last updated by Mathletic on 29 May. Is that, combined with Alberto's statement, not clear enough?
It only talks of 13.2, not further. And Alberto words were not clear enough, till I asked. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPJZdsACgkQja8UbcUWM1xZWAD/XDo8bqoRSlJ4crEW7O2TNdXU VqxvLuEzWAGz+aSPNOEA/RtBG5eOh2oBpiFNnMcC4BcczNW16SKf0yFX6biHgkkD =qLzW -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On 2014-07-18 20:22 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:
On 2014-07-18 10:37 -0400, Felix Miata composed:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Roadmap was last updated by Mathletic on 29 May. Is that, combined with Alberto's statement, not clear enough?
It only talks of 13.2, not further.
Same as always, not presuming Coolo or any other crucial member of the development team or the infrastructure will live through and beyond whatever release is in current gestation. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 18.07.2014 15:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Content-ID:
El 2014-07-18 a las 15:42 +0200, jcsl escribió:
El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 15:05:01 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 02:53:02 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
Uhmm I do not get why so many confusion here.
We spend some time working on Factory, the base of openSUSE, to build a better, more stable and more reliable rolling distribution ever.
The next version of openSUSE distribution will be based, so, in a better Factory. So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future, because the base is more curated, not that we are not going to have any openSUSE release anymore.
That's what needs to be clearly stated, that the standard openSUSE release stays.
There is no "standard openSUSE release" and there never was. Each openSUSE release ever done was an artwork in itself and it took several people and tons of hours to create and publish. If there are people who want to continue doing releases like Carlos E.R. expects an openSUSE release, I'm open to help. In case the people willing to help want a different model, we will change. That easy. But the good news - Carlos - is, there is no other distribution out there that does "standard openSUSE releases". So you can just as well stay and await what the next openSUSE release brings you. Greetings, Stephan -- http://s.kulow.org/users-when-you-talk-about-rolling-releases -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 07/18/2014 10:37 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:
On 18.07.2014 15:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Content-ID:
El 2014-07-18 a las 15:42 +0200, jcsl escribió:
El Viernes, 18 de julio de 2014 15:05:01 Alberto Planas Dominguez escribió:
On Friday, July 18, 2014 02:53:02 PM Carlos E. R. wrote:
El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
Uhmm I do not get why so many confusion here.
We spend some time working on Factory, the base of openSUSE, to build a better, more stable and more reliable rolling distribution ever.
The next version of openSUSE distribution will be based, so, in a better Factory. So the news here is that we are going to have better openSUSEs in the future, because the base is more curated, not that we are not going to have any openSUSE release anymore.
That's what needs to be clearly stated, that the standard openSUSE release stays.
There is no "standard openSUSE release" and there never was. Each openSUSE release ever done was an artwork in itself and it took several people and tons of hours to create and publish.
If there are people who want to continue doing releases like Carlos E.R. expects an openSUSE release, I'm open to help. In case the people willing to help want a different model, we will change. That easy.
But the good news - Carlos - is, there is no other distribution out there that does "standard openSUSE releases". So you can just as well stay and await what the next openSUSE release brings you.
Greetings, Stephan
Once the openSUSE 13.2 Milestones are released, we will be able to install on real hardware to do bug hunting where virtualization may miss. Cheers! Roman -------------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Get it! Discover it! Share it! -------------------------------------------- http://linuxcounter.net/ #179293 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2014-07-18 12:57 (GMT-0400) Roman Bysh composed:
Once the openSUSE 13.2 Milestones are released, we will be able to install on real hardware to do bug hunting where virtualization may miss.
Nothing should stop you from installing Factory any time you want. There's no need to wait on any milestone. I don't download anything but the installation linux and initrd from a mirror, load them with Grub, and install directly via HTTP mirrors of Factory. Periodically, dvd isos "snapshots" are built for those who want to download the full kitchen sink instead of only what will actually be installed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2014-07-18 a las 16:37 +0200, Stephan Kulow escribió:
On 18.07.2014 15:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:
That's what needs to be clearly stated, that the standard openSUSE release stays.
There is no "standard openSUSE release" and there never was. Each openSUSE release ever done was an artwork in itself and it took several people and tons of hours to create and publish.
Yes, I know. Just call it however you prefer. :-)
If there are people who want to continue doing releases like Carlos E.R. expects an openSUSE release, I'm open to help. In case the people willing to help want a different model, we will change. That easy.
That I understand.
But the good news - Carlos - is, there is no other distribution out there that does "standard openSUSE releases". So you can just as well stay and await what the next openSUSE release brings you.
I'll wait, of course. But if the openSUSE comunity stops doing, some time in the future, what I call "the standard distro" (like 12.3, 13.1, 13.2, 13.3, etc), doing instead a Factory or rolling release thing, then I'll have to find something else. Be it ubuntu, debian, whatever. I have no idea, I've been here for almost two decades, I have not looked around much: no need to. Of course the community decides, and it depends on volunteers. I'm one, I do my little contribs. I know how it works. I just say that if the decission is rolling release or factory only, then I simply can not use it. Sorry. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlPJajQACgkQja8UbcUWM1yDpQD/ZFax1RX5oXbr4SCCKLkEs5fb 9+jHSNJqq0gHrh71uWoBAIPft0GYHDAeDpysrP50rq4sQYPUjcQnrvr+p4gOMg5D =Lbwk -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Fredag den 18. juli 2014 15:42:46 skrev jcsl:
we all know how fast things can be spread in the web.
For some reason only misinformation seems to spread fast ;-) Corrections to false rumours or myths take foreeeeever to spread. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Carlos E. R.
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El 2014-07-18 a las 12:51 +0200, jcsl escribió:
What is being rumored now in some blogs is that there will be no openSUSE releases together with Factory development, but just a rolling version of openSUSE. Hence my doubts...
And mine. And I'm scared stiff.
If the normal openSUSE releases are stopped, then I'm out. Have to find another distro, plain as that...
Calm down. This discussion is premature. It has already been clearly stated 13.2 will be released. It is scheduled for November 2014. With a 8-month schedule that means Summer 2015 should be time for 13.3. That's a full year away. I may be dead by then, who knows? Anyway, I don't know what the community will do about 13.3, but neither does anyone else. I hope routine releases continue, but to date most of my contribution has gone towards pushing packages to factory, so I don't have a lot of say so about if 13.3 will happen. If in early 2015 the contributors that manage the release process decide to stop routine releases, I will have to face that bridge at that time. For my laptop, it may not be a big deal. For a email server I run, I'd likely be forced to change. For the SuSE Studio appliances I build I'm not sure. The bigger issue is that it is at least a year before it becomes a true concern. For now we need to let the new factory model work itself out so informed decisions can be made after 13.2 is out. Greg -- Greg Freemyer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Friday, July 18, 2014 03:14:42 AM Felix Miata wrote:
As a rolling distro, I can't see Factory as the apropos name it was. It's No longer will Factory be a good way to discover bugs, since ostensibly all but inconsequential or undiscoverable bugs have been squashed before acceptance of newer versions from BS into Factory.
But this only can happens if (1) there is a test in openQA that makes sure that the normal user interaction is not broken and (2) the owner of the package looks what is happening in openQA regularly. The bugs are there, only that are showed differently: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/12217/modules/livecdreboot/steps/2 I guest that we need now more eyes in openQA : ) -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Alberto Planas Dominguez -
Ancor Gonzalez Sosa -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Greg Freemyer -
jcsl -
Martin Schlander -
Roman Bysh -
Stephan Kulow -
Tomáš Chvátal