On 07/03/2013 05:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2013-07-03 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was [...] b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer[. ...] Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. [...] Can we find a sensible middle way please?

Well, Robert Schweikert's "maintainer model clean up" http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-10/msg00282.html should help here, albeit not much has resulted from the proposal.

Well, maybe not in this case. In general we cleaned up heavily. Still I somewhat agree that it didn't help raising awareness as we hoped it would.

Project maintainers still get Hermes notifications about single packages and thus feel inclined to hit the accept buttons...

Personally, I don't use Hermes but from time to time I look at projects where I have maintainer rights and accept requests that are more than a month old and make sense to me. I think this could be the "sensible middle way" Ludwig wants? -- Sascha Peilicke SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 4 July 2013 08:34, Sascha Peilicke wrote:

On 07/03/2013 05:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Wednesday 2013-07-03 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was [...] b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer[. ...] Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. [...] Can we find a sensible middle way please?

Well, Robert Schweikert's "maintainer model clean up" http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-10/msg00282.html should help here, albeit not much has resulted from the proposal.

Well, maybe not in this case. In general we cleaned up heavily. Still I somewhat agree that it didn't help raising awareness as we hoped it would.

I actually though it was never implemented! Anyway, we still have the problem of OBS telling somebody is a maintainer when he obviously isn't. multimedia:libs/audiofile has as *only* maintainer sbrabec. He created the package 4 years ago. Since then there have been 30 commits, and not a single one from him. namtrac sometimes has accepted requests for some of my packages too fast. I could complain about that. But then he would stop doing it, and I would start complaining because my requests to audiofile always take one month to get accepted. The first thing is to clear the mess. Then we will be able to argue about a meaningful policy. Can't an automatic email be sent to every single maintainer of a package in Factory? Perhaps two... But if there is no answer the user is removed from the package/project maintainer/bugowner list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/04/2013 04:01 AM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

On 4 July 2013 08:34, Sascha Peilicke wrote:

...

On 07/03/2013 05:02 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Wednesday 2013-07-03 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was [...] b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer[. ...] Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. [...] Can we find a sensible middle way please?

Well, Robert Schweikert's "maintainer model clean up" http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-10/msg00282.html should help here, albeit not much has resulted from the proposal.

Well, maybe not in this case. In general we cleaned up heavily. Still I somewhat agree that it didn't help raising awareness as we hoped it would.

I actually though it was never implemented!

Anyway, we still have the problem of OBS telling somebody is a maintainer when he obviously isn't.

Well, OBS can only show the information it has and I suspect I would not be the only one opposed to some "automated maintainer setting". While I am a proponent of contribution and activity data collection, I believe action based on data should be taken by people based on interaction. Anyway, that's a different topic.

multimedia:libs/audiofile has as *only* maintainer sbrabec. He created the package 4 years ago. Since then there have been 30 commits, and not a single one from him.

One of the ideas behind the maintainer proposal was that project maintainers could help find non-active package maintainers and help to either encourage those individuals to step back into the project or help find a new maintainer for the package that is more active.

namtrac sometimes has accepted requests for some of my packages too fast. I could complain about that. But then he would stop doing it, and I would start complaining because my requests to audiofile always take one month to get accepted.

If you have particular interest in a package and are willing to maintain it you can always request to be a maintainer/co-maintainer on a given package.

The first thing is to clear the mess. Then we will be able to argue about a meaningful policy.

At the project level much of the clean up has occurred. On the package level this has not been done as we simply have too many packages to "clean up" manually. Automation is possible and I have a script to look at packages. The problem is that OBS currently lacks the API to get the data in an efficient way. There is a feature request to address this missing API. Scripting package maintainer data collection currently implies that we have to make a request fro every single package in Factory. This puts significant strain on the back end and leads to intermittent failures, thus the data is compromised. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Stephan Kulow [2013-07-04 10:04]:

On 03.07.2013 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Hi,

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was a) not submitted by the actual package maintainer and b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer and c) not urgent in any way. Both cases were core distro packages. Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. By giving a chance I'm talking about weeks rather than hours. It's very unfair and annoying to

Weeks is very frustrating for the submitter actually as it's currently not possible to give useful feedback - I hope that Shayon succeeds in having comments implemented in the build service, so that project maintainers can do reviews and add their liking/disliking to the request and then wait for the actual maintainer to step up.

In the meantime, how about introducing a maintainer "grace time" policy, that is a certain time period (say 1-2 weeks) in which project maintainers should usually not intervene combined with a "vacation list" (like e.g. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vacation) to let others know if a maintainer will be unresponsive for a longer time period? -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting Guido Berhoerster :

* Stephan Kulow [2013-07-04 10:04]:

...

On 03.07.2013 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Hi,

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was a) not submitted by the actual package maintainer and b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer and c) not urgent in any way. Both cases were core distro packages. Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. By giving a chance I'm talking about weeks rather than hours. It's very unfair and annoying to

Weeks is very frustrating for the submitter actually as it's currently not possible to give useful feedback - I hope that Shayon succeeds in having comments implemented in the build service, so that project maintainers can do reviews and add their liking/disliking to the request and then wait for the actual maintainer to step up.

In the meantime, how about introducing a maintainer "grace time" policy, that is a certain time period (say 1-2 weeks) in which project maintainers should usually not intervene combined with a "vacation list" (like e.g. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Vacation) to let others know if a maintainer will be unresponsive for a longer time period?

Why not do as I did on the vlc package in multimedia:libs (which seems to work out just fine): - If you care THAT much about a package, add yourself as REVIEWER to it. The prj maintainer can still overrule this, but has to do so 'actively' by acknowledging a popup that a review is pending. For other packages, the idea of 'project maintainers' is really to take care of the whole project... which means 'of all packages inside the project'. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, Even though I understand the 'way it is going', I see two 'scenarios': - Projects like GNOME:Factory (which you mentioned and which I happen to be rather active in) => has a very small group of project maintainers, who are known to each other and that have a level of trust. A strict 4-eye principle is applied (none of us self-acks a request). So this does not fit the general 'issue' on this thread. It simply does not matter there. Projects like multimedia:libs, or even worse, games: a large group of project maintainers exist, Some are more active, some are less active. Typically, the 'less active ones' do not cause the 'trouble' (in my experience, they only 'care' for the few packages 'they' maintain). The large group can be a good thing, especially when people as a collective look after packages that are failing, maybe even after they update one library. The COLLECTIVE is supposed to maintain the PROJECT, which includes every and EACH package in this project. Now, there are scenarios where a small set of packages in the project were added 'as a best fit', but not with the intent to have 'everybody' maintain it without consulting 'the' maintainer.. which is exactly what is true for VLC, which lives in multimedia:libs. For me, generally, it's important that I know of changes there so that I can have a closer look also at my own BS-instance, which builds THE SAME package, with slight different dependenices (vlc-codecs package). Now, of course, every maintainer in multimedia:libs CAN accept this package (permission wise), but I 'added' myself as 'reviewer role' to the package. Which means, that only when all reviews passed (accept or decline) is the package ready for 'accepting' into the dev project (I happen to do them at the same time for this package... something done entirely different in GNOME:Factory for example). and THIS is the approach I would recommend to follow if there are packages you care that much about. Have the collective be able to look after it (once in a while, a PRJ maintainer might even fix a build) but have SRs go to review, assigned to you directly... and the workflow becomes clear. If THEN somebody STILL accepts a request that was clearly assigned to you for review, then I agree, it is time to roll up this discussion.. until then, let's use the technology at hand, configure it to our likings and let the eco system work to our advantage. Dominique

On 07/04/2013 01:04 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 03.07.2013 16:45, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Hi,

Looks like we went from one extreme (submit requests hanging around for months) to the other. It happened now for the second time in two days that I see a submit request accepted within a few hours that was a) not submitted by the actual package maintainer and b) not accepted nor acknowledged by the actual package maintainer and c) not urgent in any way. Both cases were core distro packages. Please, if you are project maintainer but not package maintainer give the actual maintainer a chance to review what arbitrary people do to their package. By giving a chance I'm talking about weeks rather than hours. It's very unfair and annoying to

Weeks is very frustrating for the submitter actually as it's currently not possible to give useful feedback - I hope that Shayon succeeds in having comments implemented in the build service, so that project maintainers can do reviews and add their liking/disliking to the request and then wait for the actual maintainer to step up.

With the 4th/5th being a US holiday I'm only now getting a chance to catchup on this list. In addition to the above comment scenario, I can see comments being useful for the following: "Hi. I'm the package maintainer, yes I see this request, will the project maintainers please leave it alone for a couple of days so I can have time to review it" ;-) In the past I've had to revert changes that have been accepted by project maintainers just hours after they've been submitted. If we can improve the workflow in this area it will be appreciated. Tony -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2013-07-09 22:12, Guido Berhoerster wrote:

...

With the 4th/5th being a US holiday I'm only now getting a chance to catchup on this list.

In addition to the above comment scenario, I can see comments being useful for the following: "Hi. I'm the package maintainer, yes I see this request, will the project maintainers please leave it alone for a couple of days so I can have time to review it" ;-)

You can already do that without comments by simply adding a review on yourself to the SR.

But only if you manage to issue the request-review SR before the other person accepted the initial SR ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/12/2013 12:12 PM, Dirk Müller wrote:

Hi Ludwig,

...

Can we find a sensible middle way please?

It would be nice if the webui would actually show the situation easily. It is not possible to look up package maintainers from requests view.

The fact the you can accept the request means you have the rights to do it. If that isn't desired by someone else (called pkg maintainer), then it's more of a communication issue. I don't think it's going to help if the (already crowded) request show view provides a "list of people with toes you would step on when accepting this". Project maintainers will refrain from ever again touching something. My take is, if a project maintainer did something the package maintainer didn't want, he'll usually find out at some point and write some (hate-)mail. Whatever the result of that is, someone will fixup the package and we can all float on. It's the "rather ask for forgiveness than for permission" scheme we all like. -- Sascha Peilicke SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org