On 2008/04/22 18:37 (GMT+0200) Felix-Nicolai Müller apparently typed:

Stephan Kulow schrieb:

| https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=209654

Can you supply the bug number? The list is still not in alphabetical order.

Any time you have only an attachment URL, you can find the bug it applies to by appending &action=edit to the URL. -- "Either the constitution controls the judges, or the judges rewrite the constitution." Judge Robert Bork Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, den 23.04.2008, 08:16 +0200 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

Yeah, finding screenshots that show a difference between GNOME and KDE noticable on 64x64 is pretty hard. Even if you go for e.g. 80x60

Hm. Just crop to the lower-left corner and show the active menu. That is as desktop-specific as it gets, I think. After all, the main menu is what users have to interact with most of the time. If you don't like the main menu you won't like the desktop. This only goes for novice users of course, who don't know how - and will never bother to find out - to replace the main menu by something else. (Thinking about it, the descriptions will have to stay, too, because of ncurses.) Greets, Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/04/22 22:53 (GMT+0200) Robert Kaiser apparently typed:

...

I spent some hours today to refresh my ycp knowledge: https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=209654

...

This is how we want to go into beta2.

Basically looks very nice, but is there a special reason why GNOME is first and the KDEs are at the bottom?

It's not alphabetical any more now that KDE4 sits before KDE3. -- "Either the constitution controls the judges, or the judges rewrite the constitution." Judge Robert Bork Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 22/04/2008, Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote:

Yes, so alphabetical order has to be restored. Otherwise we should just put KDE3 on top as it appears to be the most used DE among openSUSE users.

I would vote for reverse-alphabetical order. No-one can argue that is any less impartial than alphabetical order ¬_¬. -- Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 22/04/2008, Gabriel wrote:

I'd vote to put them at the same level.

And how do you propose to do that? English is read left to right. English speakers will view things from top left to bottom right. The topmost or leftmost item will always be perceived to be the first. -- Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Benji Weber schrieb: | On 22/04/2008, Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote: |> Yes, so alphabetical order has to be restored. Otherwise we should just |> put KDE3 on top as it appears to be the most used DE among openSUSE users. | | I would vote for reverse-alphabetical order. No-one can argue that is | any less impartial than alphabetical order ¬_¬. | | -- | Benjamin Weber Sure :-). Why don't we just randomize the output? At least we don't have to argue about the order if we do that. Greetings Felix -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIDlB2aQ44ga2xxAoRArpAAKCCGrUyym2bbdkJgsF5HFTt/CrXzQCgzWfd pvjhTORqKXTA5Nyuv6iYGfg= =ziVU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Ocilka schrieb: | | | | Sure :-). Why don't we just randomize the output? At least we don't have | | to argue about the order if we do that. | | ... which means we are again in the same discussion as before. | ... | Bye | Lukas I think I need to improve my irony assembler writing stuff like this. ;-) cheers felix - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIDlhPaQ44ga2xxAoRAsgwAKCPDvhaaoJCPBIBqcWgmDUzzZ+4EQCdGVk9 Dsy/7Ume8kxEWD9m0Yj8WcY= =ZaiR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Ocilka schrieb:. | | What we need is to: | ~ * Have nice and simple dialog understandable by less-experienced users | ~ as well as all the openSUSE geeks. | ~ * Provide helpful hints for less-experienced users to ease their | ~ decision-making. | ~ * Stay politically correct by not pre-selecting any option. | ~ * Make it possible to select also another options (Xfce, Text Mode, | ~ Minimal Installation). | ~ ... ? | | All I can see in this thread (and many others) is that there are so many | different ideas and opinions that it's almost impossible to fulfill all | the requirements. | | Bye | Lukas I agree on your non-ironical points though. - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIDliDaQ44ga2xxAoRAsk1AJ9ZSDi7gbGbqscZkRNBwdijYeyKWwCfZWoW DHWUJF+iewSx8iEghJG+974= =D/pn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nikolay Derkach napsal(a): | В Втр, 22/04/2008 в 23:05 +0200, Lukas Ocilka пишет: |> What we need is to: |> ~ * Have nice and simple dialog understandable by less-experienced users |> ~ as well as all the openSUSE geeks. |> ~ * Provide helpful hints for less-experienced users to ease their |> ~ decision-making. |> ~ * Stay politically correct by not pre-selecting any option. |> ~ * Make it possible to select also another options (Xfce, Text Mode, |> ~ Minimal Installation). |> ~ ... ? | | What about placing all the selections in a circle? At least I see this | option as the only one which could match the third criteria. Without any irony [:) ;)] this sounds like a plan! On the other hand, I forgot to write that the desktop selection dialog also have to work in text-mode (ncurses). I can't imagine any (easy) implementation :( - Ncurses work with 80x25 characters screen. L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIDlo0VSqMdRCqTiwRAnVsAJ0Vs6pB50DS7QfZG2Q5utr1bwjfpQCeJUPw zwfVb13bc0hHsdBD5ZjC9jk= =xebb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Eberhard Moenkeberg napsal(a): | Hi, | | On Tue, 22 Apr 2008, Lukas Ocilka wrote: |> Nikolay Derkach napsal(a): |> | ? ???, 22/04/2008 ? 23:05 +0200, Lukas Ocilka ?????: | |> | > What we need is to: |> | > ~ * Have nice and simple dialog understandable by less-experienced users |> | > ~ as well as all the openSUSE geeks. |> | > ~ * Provide helpful hints for less-experienced users to ease their |> | > ~ decision-making. |> | > ~ * Stay politically correct by not pre-selecting any option. |> | > ~ * Make it possible to select also another options (Xfce, Text Mode, |> | > ~ Minimal Installation). |> | > ~ ... ? |> | |> | What about placing all the selections in a circle? At least I see this |> | option as the only one which could match the third criteria. |> |> Without any irony [:) ;)] this sounds like a plan! | | No. It is just the next "political" trick on the attempt to kick off gnome | from top or to change the sequence of the two KDEs. Not exactly, I thought about GNOME in the top right corner, KDE4 on the left, KDE3 in the bottom right corner. The selected desktop would then turn to the top direction. I actually don't want to kick GNOME anywhere as I also don't prefer KDE or KDE3 to KDE4 or ... |> On the other hand, I forgot to write that the desktop selection dialog |> also have to work in text-mode (ncurses). I can't imagine any (easy) |> implementation :( - Ncurses work with 80x25 characters screen. | | So leave it as it is now. The help text additions describe what a newbie | should think about - that is the most important thing. Which 'as it is now' do you mean? The current solution in Beta1 or Coolo's new proposal? That one doesn't help the newbie user at all. Text actually dont's say anything (they actually say: we don't say anything) ;) :) L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIDl1GVSqMdRCqTiwRAi5YAKCHdG4ME3jc4bFAJaziXmNq8+3IUACeK61T 49J2uRteHh9h4SiufgNdeb0= =Nc1f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bryen napsal(a): | I still think the best choice is to replace the radio buttons with | checkboxes. I, for one, tend to choose both GNOME and KDE when I | install. This means selecting one DE in this screen and then later down | the line in SW, choose the second (or more) DE of choice. | | To me, that resolves most of the arguments or "political tricks", as one | poster referred to it, and informs the new user that they CAN pick more Hmm, that's true. It solves a lot. ... and additionally it adds another level of confusion (which can be sovled by adding a note that user can install more desktops at once). | than one DE for their installation. Why should a new user be forced to | make a decision on which DE to choose when they haven't tried any of | them in the past? Let them install both and decide later, through | actual usage, which DE they like best. Because when more desktops are selected, it's again uneasy and "politically incorrect" to pick one as the default desktop (and gdm vs kdm, of course). Yes, *we* have a problem but we want *user* to *solver* it ;) L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIDmGwVSqMdRCqTiwRAj72AJ9U2KZYyjMpk0C8I/5BCmLbR4xpEACfdWq+ HSFA6yyV9eT4q7PoXXPRLfY= =69W9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Bryen [04-22-08 17:59]:

I still think the best choice is to replace the radio buttons with checkboxes. I, for one, tend to choose both GNOME and KDE when I install. This means selecting one DE in this screen and then later down the line in SW, choose the second (or more) DE of choice.

To me, that resolves most of the arguments or "political tricks", as one poster referred to it, and informs the new user that they CAN pick more than one DE for their installation. Why should a new user be forced to make a decision on which DE to choose when they haven't tried any of them in the past? Let them install both and decide later, through actual usage, which DE they like best.

+1 -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Christian Jäger napsal(a):

Am Dienstag, den 22.04.2008, 16:57 -0500 schrieb Bryen:

...

I still think the best choice is to replace the radio buttons with checkboxes. I, for one, tend to choose both GNOME and KDE when I install. This means selecting one DE in this screen and then later down the line in SW, choose the second (or more) DE of choice.

To me, that resolves most of the arguments or "political tricks", as one poster referred to it, and informs the new user that they CAN pick more than one DE for their installation. Why should a new user be forced to make a decision on which DE to choose when they haven't tried any of them in the past? Let them install both and decide later, through actual usage, which DE they like best.

Very true! +1 from me.

Having three different options with a check-box and a radio-button for each of them is a usability overkill. That would be a very expert dialog and (not only) newbie users will run away from openSUSE screaming. The dialog has to have obvious meaning and easy solution.

Also the short text that describes the desktops is pretty useless; please let's replace it by desktop screenshots.

A textual description should say something about the desktop and help users to chose their best one. It was said that one picture can say more than 1000 words but they forgot to say that you should be able to see details ;) Having screenshots doesn't solve anything as we can't have big screenshots there. Moreover what can *one* screenshot say about a configurable desktop environment? The only thing which is visible on tiny screenshots is the color (or bitmap, but hardly) of the background. So do we want users to make their decision based on a background color? I don't think so. Bye Lukas

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008, Lukas Ocilka wrote:

Christian Jäger napsal(a):

...

Am Dienstag, den 22.04.2008, 16:57 -0500 schrieb Bryen:

...

I still think the best choice is to replace the radio buttons with checkboxes. I, for one, tend to choose both GNOME and KDE when I install. This means selecting one DE in this screen and then later down the line in SW, choose the second (or more) DE of choice.

To me, that resolves most of the arguments or "political tricks", as one poster referred to it, and informs the new user that they CAN pick more than one DE for their installation. Why should a new user be forced to make a decision on which DE to choose when they haven't tried any of them in the past? Let them install both and decide later, through actual usage, which DE they like best.

Very true! +1 from me.

Having three different options with a check-box and a radio-button for each of them is a usability overkill.

That would be a very expert dialog and (not only) newbie users will run away from openSUSE screaming.

The dialog has to have obvious meaning and easy solution.

...

Also the short text that describes the desktops is pretty useless; please let's replace it by desktop screenshots.

A textual description should say something about the desktop and help users to chose their best one. It was said that one picture can say more than 1000 words but they forgot to say that you should be able to see details ;)

Having screenshots doesn't solve anything as we can't have big screenshots there. Moreover what can *one* screenshot say about a configurable desktop environment? The only thing which is visible on tiny screenshots is the color (or bitmap, but hardly) of the background. So do we want users to make their decision based on a background color? I don't think so.

You can change the window background pixmap with a screenshot that matches the current selection. That at least solves the size problem. Richard. -- Richard Guenther Novell / SUSE Labs SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nuernberg - AG Nuernberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alexey Eremenko napsal(a): | This update is nice. This post too ;) L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFID8S+VSqMdRCqTiwRAptwAJ9pP0bIAweeAbRX0Y8oW9Q/kfGAjgCffYHv g5Cue2fXKL6QFrQGs52jCa8= =aj7c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 24. April 2008 schrieb Glenn Holmer:

On Wednesday 23 April 2008 04:36:43 Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Having three different options with a check-box and a radio-button for each of them is a usability overkill.

That would be a very expert dialog and (not only) newbie users will run away from openSUSE screaming.

I disagree. Linux is all about choice, and asking the user to make a choice at this early stage puts them in the right frame of mind. The "default" radio button could have text by it that says "This desktop will be used by default when you log in. You can select a different one by choosing it from the Session dropdown." I like the idea of being able to install more than one desktop at this stage.

But this is not what this dialog is all about. If you want more software, the software selection is there for you. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

But this is not what this dialog is all about. If you want more software, the software selection is there for you.

This might not be the best, usability wise.

I, for one, find it inconvenient to dive into software selection if all I want to do is add GNOME & KDE, or KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0. If we're already presenting the desktop options for the user, I think it's less than friendly to say "you can only choose one" and make them add the other(s) via another screen.

Well said. There is a world of difference between radio buttons (only being able to select one) and checkboxes (being able to check 2.. or 3). C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bryen wrote:

On Thu, 2008-04-24 at 09:45 -0400, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

...

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

But this is not what this dialog is all about. If you want more software, the software selection is there for you. This might not be the best, usability wise.

I, for one, find it inconvenient to dive into software selection if all I want to do is add GNOME & KDE, or KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0. If we're already presenting the desktop options for the user, I think it's less than friendly to say "you can only choose one" and make them add the other(s) via another screen.

Best,

Zonker

The problem also is that I don't think a user, at least from a new user perspective, thinks of Desktop Environments as "software" per se. They see sofware as programs that run on top of DE's. So they see the Sofware Selection menu more as add-ons to the Environment they've chosen.

Bryen

There will always be "The problem" for the "new user", the new user who doesn't know or hasn't got herself familiar with what a GNOME or a KDE is. I don't see how we fix that, other than eliminating choice, something that the many reviewers recommend constantly - new users are supposed to be pretty stupid, easily confused, horrified at the amount of disk space and memory called for and frightened away from Linux in general and openSUSE in particular. I can also sympathise with Zonker's annoyance, encountered the same situation up to yesterday and countless times in the past, needing as usual to install GNOME, KDE3 and KDE4, but I always find a way of doing it and give that to anyone who needs it. I can't see a "BEST" way and doubt there is one that will meet everyone's idea of what best is. My advice to packagers, take note of the comments, design it as you see fit. Computer nomenclature is always quaint and I'm sure that the vast bulk of Windows users think Powerpoint is where they plug the PC into the mains. No gripes here! Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Torsdag den 24. April 2008 18:24:50 skrev Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier:

...

I can't see a "BEST" way and doubt there is one that will meet everyone's idea of what best is.

True, but we can pick a way that is most intuitive to most users. My belief is that when you offer a user a set of choices that are not incompatible, they should be able to select more than one choice at that stage. I think it's a bit counterintuitive and slightly frustrating when doing the install if you are only allowed to choose one at that time.

Imo only geeks will want to install more than one DE. Selecting a pattern or two for installation later on shouldn't be a problem for them. Using checkboxes introduces the risk that people install 2-3 DEs by "accident", wasting substantial diskspace and having cluttered menus and generally messy systems etc. It also has implications for other things. We use "automatic login" as the default. So users would have to figure out how to log out to get to their display manager and select different sessions. Seriously, many fairly experienced users have never seen k/gdm because of the autologin default. I support keeping the radio buttons. Installing several DEs is not something to encourage imho. With patterns it's easy enough to do either during installation or later for the few users that want/need it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Sid Boyce wrote:

...

There will always be "The problem" for the "new user", the new user who doesn't know or hasn't got herself familiar with what a GNOME or a KDE is. I don't see how we fix that, other than eliminating choice, something that the many reviewers recommend constantly - new users are supposed to be pretty stupid, easily confused, horrified at the amount of disk space and memory called for and frightened away from Linux in general and openSUSE in particular.

I don't know how true that really is, though -- my girlfriend's 9 year old installed openSUSE on an old laptop of mine the other day with no assistance aside from picking a username and password (he could have done that as well, but she insisted on setting up the admin password, for good reasons...). And that was from the 10.3 DVD -- and we've made some serious installer improvements just since then.

I know the youngsters don't seem to care what it is, they can instinctively deal with any of this stuff. There are two guys, both dropped out of college, one owns his own software/hardware business built on Linux and has contributed code to the kernel, the other is head of IT support for a large multi-national company. These guys picked up Linux and ran with it. The IT support Director guy got his college out of a catch 22 situation when their NT servers went down and there didn't seem to be a way back, he brought his Linux box from home and got them going again. After that they branded him a hacker, never to be trusted. It's typically some of the 20-something year old Windows users who approach Linux as though it is some kind of Windows clone and find everything strange and difficult rather than discarding the mindset. The owner of a Florida Flight School when we first met asked me after a few minutes, what business I was in, I said computers and he replied that he thought so. His wife told me that one student he interviewed was asked the same question and after the reply, he showed him a pad with computers written on it. He reckons it's a mindset that betrays us and makes doctors and computer people in that order the hardest people to train to fly aeroplanes. Guys have for years coped with Linux installs when the process was much more difficult and I come across people of all ages, even senior citizens who install and run Linux successfully, so there is no need to assume the worst.

Of course, we will have single-desktop installable live CDs that have only one choice. Should we be directing users towards those rather than the DVD? That's probably a discussion for a different list.

...

I can't see a "BEST" way and doubt there is one that will meet everyone's idea of what best is.

True, but we can pick a way that is most intuitive to most users. My belief is that when you offer a user a set of choices that are not incompatible, they should be able to select more than one choice at that stage. I think it's a bit counterintuitive and slightly frustrating when doing the install if you are only allowed to choose one at that time.

There are still some who will find that our most intuitive layout is counterintuitive.

Of course, I tend to run through the installation routine much more often than I think most of our audience will -- so maybe I have stronger feelings about it than the average user would because, even if it is frustrating, it's only going to be frustrating *once*. :-)

Best,

Zonker

The most frustrating thing in the whole stack is PC hardware and it's lack of diagnostics, software installation is the easy part. I swapped out a 32-bit motherboard and all its bits, replacing it with 64-bit which ran for a few months before that too started to power itself off. As the only bit I had to hand to help in fault finding was a power supply, it turned out that the 600W PS was at fault as the box was OK on a 450W PS and a few days ago I was able to build a 32-bit box with what I had thought was a bad motherboard/CPU and 11.0 Beta1 DVD just installed without problems and zypper dup to the latest factory. I install quite a few distros in VirtualBox and KVM and I find them all perfectly usable even for novices, though when I install for complete novices, with one exception being an old laptop for a young girl student where I installed SimplyMEPIS, they are all openSUSE and in daily use for a variety of uses, including surfing the web, skype, email, wordprocessing, spreadsheets, burning CD/DVD's, playing CD's and DVD's, digital camera work and more. They even recognise and do their own automatic updates when the icon shows there are updates pending. I think we are in really good shape. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 24 April 2008 12:42:44 pm Oddball wrote:

3) They must know that there *cannot* be made a 'wrong' choice, because other 'DE's, or windowmanagers can be installed, without reinstalling the whole system.

This is right way. For instance: "Please select one that will be installed now. At this point you can't make wrong choice. Later you can install another and change default desktop to new installed without reinstalling openSUSE. It is easy as installing new program. " -- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce schreef:
> Oddball wrote:
>> Sid Boyce schreef:
>>>
>>> There will always be "The problem" for the "new user", the new user 
>>> who doesn't know or hasn't got herself familiar with what a GNOME or 
>>> a KDE is. 
>>
>> Nail on head.
>> That is why it is important to know, as new user, that they can be 
>> installed both, without have to reinstall, persee.
>>
>> My experience is, that after a few days, most likely a reinstall 
>> happens, because the inconveniences show only after installing, and 
>> using the system.
>> And that is not a big deal, because you get familiar with the os, and 
>> the methods used, this way, and you are not (yet) attached to it, so 
>> not a difficult decision..
>>
> I discourage reinstalling whenever anyone has raised it, it's a 
> Windows trait. If a new user has no one to call on I can understand 
> it. I have advised that every new user repeats the following every 
> time, "I know jack about Linux". It's the ones that reckon they know 
> all about computers that get frustrated and confused, they're trying 
> to use Linux as if it were Windows. They also forget they struggled 
> with Windows at first.

If the partioning is not ok, there is not much chance to reorder.
Many things cannot be done: create, resize or move a partition is almost 
impossible, without reinstalling....

>
>>> I don't see how we fix that, 
>> see above..
>>
>>> other than eliminating choice, something that the many reviewers 
>>> recommend constantly - 
>>
>>> new users are supposed to be pretty stupid, 
>> They are not stupid, they are used to a system that is closed on the 
>> outside... ;)
>>
>>> easily confused, horrified at the amount of disk space and memory 
>>> called for and frightened away from Linux in general and openSUSE in 
>>> particular.
>> I would not dare to say that...
>>>
> I was saying quite the opposite, I was just putting over the 
> nonsensical sentiment you often see in articles - Linux is hard, 
> doesn't support this or that, is lacking ......., for experts only, 
> etc. I'd be a rich man if I had been paid one dollar for every 
> negative Linux article I have read and the statements I have received 
> in conversation. On the positive side, I have asked quite a few 
> authors who rubbished Linux many years ago to do a follow up article a 
> year on and in most cases they were either converts or their follow up 
> articles were much less harsh.
>
>>> I can also sympathise with Zonker's annoyance, encountered the same 
>>> situation up to yesterday and countless times in the past, needing 
>>> as usual to install GNOME, KDE3 and KDE4, but I always find a way of 
>>> doing it and give that to anyone who needs it.
>>>
>>> I can't see a "BEST" way and doubt there is one that will meet 
>>> everyone's idea of what best is.
>> Best is, take a way fear, and confusion, by being clear about things 
>> concerning the 'new user':
>> 1) They are attached to their other os, and don't want to harm it, 
>> until they are sure, the new one is better.
>> 2) They have to 'trust' the new OS, this means: the new os must show, 
>> that it knows there is/are other os on the drive/s, and best what 
>> they are by name.
>> 3) They must know that there *cannot* be made a 'wrong' choice, 
>> because other 'DE's, or windowmanagers can be installed, without 
>> reinstalling the whole system.
>> (that they want to do it themselves lateron, is not important at this 
>> time...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Sid.
>>
>>
>
> No doubt true, though often their other OS is a real pain to them, but 
> it is what they use daily. Try even some seasoned professionals, guys 
> who know Solaris and z/OS very well and suggest you try a Linux live 
> CD on their PC or laptop. Experience tells them to suspect you are 
> just about to infect or ruin their Windows installation.
> The ones who have read up quite a bit on Linux will typically be the 
> ones to give it a try.
> One colleague providing support on hardware and first line support on 
> Solaris and z/OS once said he had installed Linux on his PC at home 
> and wondered after you installed Linux, what you could do with it. I 
> simply pointed to my laptop on the desk opposite which was doing 
> everything he did plus quite he bit he couldn't do with Windows.
>
> New users are not all of the same mindset or ability, that's why the 
> platform is seeing such growth.
> Regards
> Sid.

True.

-- 

Enjoy your time around,


Oddball         (Now or never...)


  Besturingssysteem:  Linux 2.6.25-rc9-17-default x86_64
  Current user:  oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1
  System:  openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Beta1
  KDE:  4.0.3 (KDE 4.0.3) "release 17.1"

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On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

I, for one, find it inconvenient to dive into software selection if all I want to do is add GNOME & KDE, or KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0. If we're already presenting the desktop options for the user, I think it's less than friendly to say "you can only choose one" and make them add the other(s) via another screen.

Or (just an alternative) - we also let the user choose in that screen if he want vi, emacs or xemacs. And postfix or sendmail. And if he wants a C compiler or a C++ compiler too. Or if he wants additional languages to his KDE or just to his GNOME. And if he wants Thunderbird as mail client to his KDE or rather use pine or mutt.

Sorry Joe - usability has nothing to do with avoid clicks for as many users as possible. And using the word usability in a context where you're saying you want 2 different desktop environments, is not going to help your point.

Well, Stephan, exchange "convenience" for "usability" if you like, but I still see it as less than optimal to present the user with three choices but say "you can only have ONE here, if you want others, you must dig for them!" Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier openSUSE Community Manager jzb@zonker.net http://zonker.opensuse.org/ http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 24. April 2008 schrieb Bryen:

But those are "add-ons" from the new user perspective as I mentioned in my last post. Selecting environments as opposed to selecting software are two different animals for them, don't you think?

Yeah, you pick one environment and then later add-ons. So you're defining this way if your system should be a KDE system with GNOME addon or a GNOME system with KDE addon. This dialog is basically the same choice as the one on download.opensuse.org where you choose if you want the KDE live CD or the GNOME live CD. On both you can install addon packages, but the nature of the system is defined by that choice. That's why Martin suggested not to name it "Desktop Selection", but System Kind or the like and I agree. Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 24. April 2008 schrieb Bryen:

...

But those are "add-ons" from the new user perspective as I mentioned in my last post. Selecting environments as opposed to selecting software are two different animals for them, don't you think?

Yeah, you pick one environment and then later add-ons. So you're defining this way if your system should be a KDE system with GNOME addon or a GNOME system with KDE addon.

I agree - after all you can only have one primary desktop environment and in the vast majority of cases people (can?) only use one desktop environment at a time.

This dialog is basically the same choice as the one on download.opensuse.org where you choose if you want the KDE live CD or the GNOME live CD. On both you can install addon packages, but the nature of the system is defined by that choice. That's why Martin suggested not to name it "Desktop Selection", but System Kind or the like and I agree.

Maybe it should be "System Outfit" or such, with a descriptive text which I would word something like this: "We believe that choice is a powerful and important freedom in software technology. That's why we ask you to chose the final outfit of your openSUSE system. We offer a simplistic version with carefully predefined interface guidelines (GNOME), a very modern but still somewhat experimental variant (KDE 4) or a highly configurable and stable environment (KDE 3). You can use all our Linux software with all those choices, what you chose mostly depends on your taste." The shortly worded descriptions of what the choices are could probably still be improved, or the overall text shortened a bit, but something in that style is what I would place above that desktop selection. Robert Kaiser --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri 25 Apr 2008 01:45:02 NZST +1200, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

I, for one, find it inconvenient to dive into software selection if all I want to do is add GNOME & KDE, or KDE 3.5 and KDE 4.0. If we're already presenting the desktop options for the user, I think it's less than friendly to say "you can only choose one" and make them add the other(s) via another screen.

A multiple-selection also conveys the information that installing more than one desktop is supposed to work. Since Linux is truely multi-user, different users might have different ideas about which desktop they prefer when they log in. How about a note saying that additional desktops can be installed via the software selection? (Sorry if such a note is there, going back right now to look isn't so easy.) Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri 25 Apr 2008 10:38:44 NZST +1200, Lukas Ocilka wrote: Your summary is extremely good.

1.) KDE3 vs KDE4, which one to offer? ~ - This was the original issue of this thread, do you remember ;)? ~ - Solved by offering both, can we agree on that?

Yes.

2.) Selecting the "default" Desktop ~ - Even if we are always talking about newbie users, sometimes also ~ geeks could change their minds of we provide them with enough ~ information on the current status of desktops

True.

~ - It should be clear what is which Desktop good for

You mean what a desktop is? Would someone new to Linux know that? If you mean which desktop is good for what, that's not so easy and subjective. I always thought they're all good for the same thing (application work space), but differ in personal work flows and methods.

~ - Has anyone done any survey about these desktops and which users ~ tend to use them? ~ - Texts or images? ~ - I've already tried small screenshots with [Show Screenshots...] ~ button for 10.3 and Image browser opening after pressing the ~ button. ~ http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Installation/Desktop_Selection_Add-On

I'm myself undecided about the usefulness of screenshots, but they do have some value. Your approach looks good (desktop, main applications).

3.) Selecting other desktops during installation ~ - Is should be clearly said that users can select more than one ~ desktop if they want to (and how, where) ~ - Selecting additional desktop(s) should be as easy as possible ~ - Yes, common user will probably not install more than one desktop ~ so we don't need to support that option in the basic desktop ~ selection dialog.

4.) Preselecting default desktop ~ - No, we can't preselect any desktop. KDE users would scream if it ~ was GNOME and vice versa. Additionally KDE3 vs KDE4 (See 1.) ~ - We could provide [I'm feeling lucky] or [I'm not sure] ~ functionality :) ;) First button would just select one, the second ~ one would show users, for instance, two (three) different ~ screenshots and let them select the one they like more (the best). ~ Users would be shown, let's say, five such choices and then an ~ average proposal would be counted.

Agreed. The "feeling lucky" approach isn't so bad, it provokes a grin, and I think it's good to include a little bit of humour. It's perhaps too much work at this point.

We really have to move on.

Ok, I'll shut up now. Thanks for your work on this. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow napsal(a):

Am Freitag, 25. April 2008 schrieb Lukas Ocilka:

...

This discussion seems to be never-ending story...

You seem to read the discussion differently than I do. Several people said the initial proposal is good and I said this is what we want beta2 to be. It's way past string freeze and you're still thinking we have the luxury to discuss basic questions?

I read the discussion as it flows. Mail by mail, and the opinions are moving there and back again. Yes, beta2 will have the dialog you wanted but it will not stop this discussion. My mail was more about summarizing the discussion. I hope there will be 11.1 or 12.0 after 11.0 ;) Lukas

Stephan Kulow napsal(a):

Am Freitag, 25. April 2008 schrieb Lukas Ocilka:

...

Stephan Kulow napsal(a):

...

Am Freitag, 25. April 2008 schrieb Lukas Ocilka:

...

This discussion seems to be never-ending story... You seem to read the discussion differently than I do. Several people said the initial proposal is good and I said this is what we want beta2 to be. It's way past string freeze and you're still thinking we have the luxury to discuss basic questions? I read the discussion as it flows. Mail by mail, and the opinions are moving there and back again.

Yes, beta2 will have the dialog you wanted but it will not stop this discussion. My mail was more about summarizing the discussion. I hope there will be 11.1 or 12.0 after 11.0 ;)

you could have said that before your summary.

That's true and I didn't say that, sorry. The story finally ends. Bastian with Atrey helped to save Fantasia and you all can enjoy the reborn Desktop Selection Dialog :) ;) This is real: https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=210550 https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=210551 For discussing how it could look like in openSUSE 11.1, please, open a new thread, e.g., Desktop Selection Dialog in the future. Have a nice weekend Lukas

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Eberhard Moenkeberg napsal(a): | Coolo's proposal. Stability, maturity, innovations, most recent, new | technologies, (less) mature, stable. | Wonderful short sentences for a newbie's "risk management" (what did you | already hear from your friends, how much would you rely on their help), | all set at the right place. OK, I like it too, those texts will still need some tuning, especially the fist one at the top. Moreover we will need some better icon for GNOME. (and I'm afraid the *Other* options might not fit the screen size but I maybe have an idea how to adjust it) L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIDmMdVSqMdRCqTiwRAs4iAJsG+aYpiqfilynOUe3jOtPAWoNiZACfc2BI H/kl7+/Ruxsb7GAY4WLhtr4= =FjRB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Lukas Ocilka schrieb: | Nikolay Derkach napsal(a): | |  B@, 22/04/2008 2 23:05 +0200, Lukas Ocilka ?8H5B: | |> What we need is to: | |> ~ * Have nice and simple dialog understandable by less-experienced | users | |> ~ as well as all the openSUSE geeks. | |> ~ * Provide helpful hints for less-experienced users to ease their | |> ~ decision-making. | |> ~ * Stay politically correct by not pre-selecting any option. | |> ~ * Make it possible to select also another options (Xfce, Text Mode, | |> ~ Minimal Installation). | |> ~ ... ? | | | | What about placing all the selections in a circle? At least I see this | | option as the only one which could match the third criteria. | | Without any irony [:) ;)] this sounds like a plan! | | On the other hand, I forgot to write that the desktop selection dialog | also have to work in text-mode (ncurses). I can't imagine any (easy) | implementation :( - Ncurses work with 80x25 characters screen. | | L. Valid point. As the different frontends should look the same (as in good for usability) we will probably end up with the now existing solution for technical reasons (unless someone wants to rewrite ncurses). So I guess it's now all about enforcing the alphabetical order compromise that was agreed on. Cheers Felix - --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIDl9naQ44ga2xxAoRAsA2AKCbbaobAnkrAl0jdNQ8Cazc1i3acQCfTfh+ a76zjnhklDxgcIos1icEqig= =gBY6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nikolay Derkach napsal(a): | Ah, I have missed this requirement. Well actually alphabetical order is | not so bad and I cant imagine something more complex that a list in | Ncurses mode. | | Is it possible to make different desktop selections in Ncurses and GUI? Yes, it is possible but one of the basic rules in YaST design is "don't do that". It is the last thing I'd like to do (but never say never). L. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIDl3qVSqMdRCqTiwRAgZtAJ9E0R+JrCf+7MH8Q52JABpxiXjCkQCgj4R5 TUzYSaKGnyWufvTHyLXYIyk= =rld2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 23. April 2008 schrieb Christian Boltz:

The problem I see is that a new user might not understand the differences between the different desktops well because large parts of the texts are recursive and not very informative. (At least for new users.)

Actually, I doubt users that never heared anything about linux will go with an uncommented DVD download. They go with an uncommented live - where they can play with the desktop and learn WTF GNOME is or they go with a DVD that they got with a nice manual or some commentary in a magazine. Trying to create the installation dialogs in a vacuum is nonsense. If you give the DVD uncommented to a friend, you're a bad friend :) Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Ted Bullock schreef:

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

Hi,

I spent some hours today to refresh my ycp knowledge: https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=209654

This is how we want to go into beta2.

Greetings, Stephan

It's fine, now can we please. as a culture, move on?

Well, the idea that 'the *any* choice', will not be the wrong one, because one can pick several Desktop environments, and Windowmanagers at a later stage, without reinstalling if enough space on disk, i think should be considered... In as few words as possible... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.25-rc8-12-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.68 (KDE 4.0.68 >= 20080402) "release 6.4" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org