[opensuse-factory] Dropping lilo support from YaST
Hi! As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1. The reason is that there are almost no technical advantages to keep both bootloaders and it makes a lot of sense to focus on a single solution and improve it. As part of this strategy, we also want to document bootloader deployment strategies that are supported by the YaST code and where the users should expect the code to work reliably. The change will mean: 1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually 3) kernel packages will be unable to adapt lilo configuration automatically, this needs to be done manually after installing a new kernel package Any feedback appreciated. Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Stanislav Visnovsky [2008-07-31 18:09]:
Any feedback appreciated.
How does the update path look like? Bernhard -- Bernhard Walle, SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Architecture Development --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 31 July 2008 18:12:44 Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Stanislav Visnovsky [2008-07-31 18:09]:
Any feedback appreciated.
How does the update path look like?
1. convert settings to grub settings 2. install grub Jozef --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, what version of grub will be used? the "old" one or the new one?
(grub2 or grub legacy wich is the one used in 11.0)
regards,
Luiz Fernando
2008/7/31 Jozef Uhliarik
On Thursday 31 July 2008 18:12:44 Bernhard Walle wrote:
* Stanislav Visnovsky [2008-07-31 18:09]:
Any feedback appreciated.
How does the update path look like?
1. convert settings to grub settings 2. install grub
Jozef
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Dňa Thursday 31 July 2008 19:08:42 ¡ElCheVive! ste napísal:
Hi, what version of grub will be used? the "old" one or the new one? (grub2 or grub legacy wich is the one used in 11.0)
grub legacy Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Hi!
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
The reason is that there are almost no technical advantages to keep both bootloaders and it makes a lot of sense to focus on a single solution and improve it. As part of this strategy, we also want to document bootloader deployment strategies that are supported by the YaST code and where the users should expect the code to work reliably.
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually 3) kernel packages will be unable to adapt lilo configuration automatically, this needs to be done manually after installing a new kernel package
Any feedback appreciated.
What about PPC platforms? I assume yaboot will continue to be supported? -- Cheers Richard (MQ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi! Dne Thursday 31 of July 2008 19:59:19 Richard (MQ) napsal(a):
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Hi!
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
The reason is that there are almost no technical advantages to keep both bootloaders and it makes a lot of sense to focus on a single solution and improve it. As part of this strategy, we also want to document bootloader deployment strategies that are supported by the YaST code and where the users should expect the code to work reliably.
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually 3) kernel packages will be unable to adapt lilo configuration automatically, this needs to be done manually after installing a new kernel package
Any feedback appreciated.
What about PPC platforms? I assume yaboot will continue to be supported?
Other platforms than i386 and x86_64 will not be affected by this change, as mentioned in Stano's mail. So, there will be no change on PPC. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
Hello, on Donnerstag, 31. Juli 2008, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
The reason is that there are almost no technical advantages to keep both bootloaders
What about booting from a software RAID 1? The last time I tried (with 10.3 IIRC), GRUB failed when / (including boot) was on a /dev/md* partition. And there are still some "interesting" systems out there [1] which work with lilo, but don't with GRUB for various reasons.
and it makes a lot of sense to focus on a single solution and improve it.
You say it ;-) I'm not really against dropping lilo support - but please make sure that GRUB works on all systems. Booting from software RAID is a must-have IMHO. (Support for "interesting" systems would be nice, but isn't a must-have.) Regards, Christian Boltz [1] mixed IDE+SCSI hard disks for example - a friend has such an "interesting" system as home server (with openSUSE 10.2). I could probably flood bugzilla completely if I reported all the problems (not only caused by the harddisk layout) I hit with this system ;-)) (and lots of those bugreports would be closed as "not reproducable" I guess - sometimes I wonder myself why something fails on this machine. Maybe I should search for the "manufactured by BOFH" label...) -- Ich selbst benutze kweather nicht (ich guck einfach aus dem Fenster). [Hartmut Meyer in suse-linux] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi! Dne Friday 01 of August 2008 00:09:32 Christian Boltz napsal(a):
Hello,
on Donnerstag, 31. Juli 2008, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
The reason is that there are almost no technical advantages to keep both bootloaders
What about booting from a software RAID 1? The last time I tried (with 10.3 IIRC), GRUB failed when / (including boot) was on a /dev/md* partition.
GRUB is able to boot from RAID1 (/dev/md*) array. However, the limitation is that this partition is located on both disks at the same area (typically both disks are partitioned the same way, or at least the system part).
And there are still some "interesting" systems out there [1] which work with lilo, but don't with GRUB for various reasons.
The problems which you mentioned are not specified enough so that I could really comment. However, the only common problem which I'm aware of is the missdetection of the disks order. We have the same issue when installing e.g. on USB. User will be able to correct the detected disks order during installation. LILO has its own way to detect it, which in some cases improves the situation and in other cases makes it worse. Jiri
and it makes a lot of sense to focus on a single solution and improve it.
You say it ;-)
I'm not really against dropping lilo support - but please make sure that GRUB works on all systems. Booting from software RAID is a must-have IMHO. (Support for "interesting" systems would be nice, but isn't a must-have.)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
[1] mixed IDE+SCSI hard disks for example - a friend has such an "interesting" system as home server (with openSUSE 10.2). I could probably flood bugzilla completely if I reported all the problems (not only caused by the harddisk layout) I hit with this system ;-)) (and lots of those bugreports would be closed as "not reproducable" I guess - sometimes I wonder myself why something fails on this machine. Maybe I should search for the "manufactured by BOFH" label...)
-- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
Hi, On 2008-07-31 18:09, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Any feedback appreciated.
We use lilo for all Software RAID1 systems on SLES & openSUSE the typical lilo.conf entries are: raid-extra-boot = mbr-only boot = /dev/md3 root = /dev/md3 Calling lilo then automatically writes the boot-records on the necessary disks: The Master boot record of /dev/sda has been updated. Warning: /dev/sdb is not on the first disk The Master boot record of /dev/sdb has been updated. Is this as easily possible with Grub/YaST combination? Kevin -- SerNet GmbH, Bahnhofsallee 1b, 37081 Göttingen phone: +49-551-370000-0, fax: +49-551-370000-9 AG Göttingen, HRB 2816, GF: Dr. Johannes Loxen http://www.SerNet.DE, mailto: Info @ SerNet.DE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne Friday 01 of August 2008 11:21:16 Kevin Ivory napsal(a):
Hi,
On 2008-07-31 18:09, Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
Any feedback appreciated.
We use lilo for all Software RAID1 systems on SLES & openSUSE
the typical lilo.conf entries are: raid-extra-boot = mbr-only boot = /dev/md3 root = /dev/md3
Calling lilo then automatically writes the boot-records on the necessary disks: The Master boot record of /dev/sda has been updated. Warning: /dev/sdb is not on the first disk The Master boot record of /dev/sdb has been updated.
Is this as easily possible with Grub/YaST combination?
Yes, GRUB can boot on MD arrays (see my other mail in this thread). YaST shall be able to handle it as well. In short: To make GRUB boot from an RAID1 MD array, all you need to do is to refer to one of the member partitions in menu.lst. The setup line needs to be duplicated for each of the disks in order to make GRUB install to both of the disks. Hope that helps a bit. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually 3) kernel packages will be unable to adapt lilo configuration automatically, this needs to be done manually after installing a new kernel package
Any feedback appreciated.
Please don't drop lilo support from YaST. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Please don't drop lilo support from YaST.
Please ignore that - I don't actually have any good reasons (apart from habit) for sticking to lilo. Does grub work over PXE-boot too? /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Per Jessen wrote:
Please don't drop lilo support from YaST.
Please ignore that - I don't actually have any good reasons (apart from habit) for sticking to lilo. Does grub work over PXE-boot too?
Just a suggestion - don't drop lilo support from YaST until grub has been verified to work everywhere where lilo works today. I've just attempted to install on RAID1 on a server some 450km from here - I can't exactly blame grub right away, but I chose grub as boot loader, and the install got screwed up. I'm now repeating the exercise. /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually
How do you envisage this will work? I.e. during a normal install, what will the experienced user need to do? Swap to another console and create the lilo setup by hand etc? /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne Friday 01 of August 2008 13:32:12 Per Jessen napsal(a):
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually
How do you envisage this will work? I.e. during a normal install, what will the experienced user need to do? Swap to another console and create the lilo setup by hand etc?
Yes, this is exactly what will be needed. You can do it during installation or boot via the installation CD again and then do it in running system (which may be more comfortable, since you can use GRUB for the initial boot and switch to LILO afterwards. Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2008-08-01 at 17:12 +0200, Jiri Srain wrote:
Dne Friday 01 of August 2008 13:32:12 Per Jessen napsal(a):
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually
How do you envisage this will work? I.e. during a normal install, what will the experienced user need to do? Swap to another console and create the lilo setup by hand etc?
Yes, this is exactly what will be needed. You can do it during installation or boot via the installation CD again and then do it in running system (which may be more comfortable, since you can use GRUB for the initial boot and switch to LILO afterwards.
How would that be possible? Remember that the installation CD can no longer boot the installed system, so the problem complexity is doubled. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFImCZFtTMYHG2NR9URAkVwAJ484fMwI+og2ULKDztXCmGAJqBYcQCfcsLU i0Qnn9JcEC+CGbXsxbWF6tU= =v4Ea -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne Tuesday 05 of August 2008 12:07:00 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
The Friday 2008-08-01 at 17:12 +0200, Jiri Srain wrote:
Dne Friday 01 of August 2008 13:32:12 Per Jessen napsal(a):
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
The change will mean:
1) YaST bootloader code for lilo will be dropped 2) YaST installation will offer to not install any bootloader, so an experienced user can use this to install lilo manually
How do you envisage this will work? I.e. during a normal install, what will the experienced user need to do? Swap to another console and create the lilo setup by hand etc?
Yes, this is exactly what will be needed. You can do it during installation or boot via the installation CD again and then do it in running system (which may be more comfortable, since you can use GRUB for the initial boot and switch to LILO afterwards.
How would that be possible? Remember that the installation CD can no longer boot the installed system, so the problem complexity is doubled.
As I wrote, you can install with GRUB and switch to LILO later. And, I think that booting a system from hard disk it still works via Linuxrc (but I have not checked this in 11.1 Alpha). Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-08-05 at 12:11 +0200, Jiri Srain wrote:
Yes, this is exactly what will be needed. You can do it during installation or boot via the installation CD again and then do it in running system (which may be more comfortable, since you can use GRUB for the initial boot and switch to LILO afterwards.
How would that be possible? Remember that the installation CD can no longer boot the installed system, so the problem complexity is doubled.
As I wrote, you can install with GRUB and switch to LILO later.
Even if grub does not boot, and boot installed system from install dvd does not exist? How?
And, I think that booting a system from hard disk it still works via Linuxrc (but I have not checked this in 11.1 Alpha).
Dunno. AFAIK, the entry to boot installed system was removed from dvd for 11.0. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFInHNMtTMYHG2NR9URAkukAJ0QFWSFHbncI3mTaShy3vXy28cpcwCcDKa0 G6h2rxv6aN43U/Z2JwPNvss= =oGah -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne Friday 08 of August 2008 18:24:42 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
The Tuesday 2008-08-05 at 12:11 +0200, Jiri Srain wrote:
Yes, this is exactly what will be needed. You can do it during installation or boot via the installation CD again and then do it in running system (which may be more comfortable, since you can use GRUB for the initial boot and switch to LILO afterwards.
How would that be possible? Remember that the installation CD can no longer boot the installed system, so the problem complexity is doubled.
As I wrote, you can install with GRUB and switch to LILO later.
Even if grub does not boot, and boot installed system from install dvd does not exist? How?
First, if it does not boot and the reason is not in missconfiguration, then we should fix it. Concentrating on one bootloader can even improve this situation in the future. Please, report all bugs via bzilla so that we can identify whether it is a missconfiguration (typically incorrecd mapping between UNIX devices and BIOS devices) or a bug.
And, I think that booting a system from hard disk it still works via Linuxrc (but I have not checked this in 11.1 Alpha).
Dunno. AFAIK, the entry to boot installed system was removed from dvd for 11.0.
Yes, but there is still a possibility in the Linuxrc menu (I do not mean in YaST or isolinux, but the text menu which you get e.g. when you kill X-server during installation). Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
Stanislav, I took this posting to be a sort of RFC, not just an announcement that support for lilo has been dropped. How should it really be understood? /Per Jessen, Zürich --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2008-08-06 at 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
Stanislav, I took this posting to be a sort of RFC, not just an announcement that support for lilo has been dropped. How should it really be understood?
I understand they discussed and decided internally. This is done. They only inform us of a decided and done fact. Probably economics reasons. :-( - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFInHPYtTMYHG2NR9URAtY9AKCK1GsOAzEXJEhmMlM0UA+ZWC5RZQCfTuNs UBmWVJs1a9eBbEvXo4oMPew= =fdPo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 08 August 2008 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
The Wednesday 2008-08-06 at 18:34 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Stanislav Visnovsky wrote:
As some of you've noticed, the bootloader configuration in openSUSE was not in best shape for a couple of releases. Therefore, we plan to drop the support for lilo bootloader from YaST (and thus installation) and leave grub as the only supported bootloader on i386 and x86_64 in openSUSE 11.1.
Stanislav, I took this posting to be a sort of RFC, not just an announcement that support for lilo has been dropped. How should it really be understood?
I understand they discussed and decided internally. This is done. They only inform us of a decided and done fact. Probably economics reasons. :-(
This is a "we tried for years to keep both and we admit we failed" announcement. There is nothing to discuss unless someone has a bright idea how to maintain so many bootloader setups with two pretty different bootloaders without getting insane. Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Bernhard Walle -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Jiri Srain -
Jozef Uhliarik -
Kevin Ivory -
Per Jessen -
Richard (MQ) -
Stanislav Visnovsky -
Stephan Kulow -
¡ElCheVive!