[opensuse-factory] Discussion about Java versions in 11.1
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users. 1) With Danske Bank - the largest Danish bank, home banking only works properly with Sun Java 1.5. With Sun Java 1.6 some core functionality doesn't work and with openjdk 1.6 you can't even login at all. 2) Another home bank system, common to many smaller Danish banks, won't work with Sun Java 1.6 on x86_64 systems (even with 32-bit firefox+32-bit java, even though it does work on full 32-bit systems with Sun Java 1.6). https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=288750 In summary, 11.1 will be unusable for Danske Bank customers and most x86_64 users without Sun Java 1.5 available - making it very difficult to recommend to anyone. I'm certain these problems of critical java applets, that only work (properly) with Sun Java 1.5, exist for very many users in very many countries. I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release. I also encourage anyone who's dependant on Java applets to test this stuff ASAP. When 11.1 is released, it's too late to do anything about it... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Martin Schlander escribió:
I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release.
I suggest you to talk your bank customer service, I guess they are not operating your accounts for free ;-) -- "A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no mercy. " Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 2008-10-02 at 13:36 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Martin Schlander escribió:
I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release.
I suggest you to talk your bank customer service, I guess they are not operating your accounts for free ;-)
Probable answer: if it works for windows, it is ok. My bank forced me to use Netscape 4.X for quite a long time... banks are usually very slow institutions. And this one was the first in Spain to be usable from home in the eighties (not Internet), so it is technologically advanced. Another bank I know is using OpenOffice.org for their staff (on windows, of course). But version 1 something, version 2 is unknown to them. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjlEaYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X2zQCgjkN7EzQMh5ZVoiOIvsOPZZOB pMwAnjc+vWhGfFsfQBzQo/DMmU4amIqN =jjfG -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 13:36 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
Martin Schlander escribió:
I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release.
I suggest you to talk your bank customer service, I guess they are not operating your accounts for free ;-)
I certainly endorse the idea of using an open software altnernative whenever reasonably possible. But to point the finger at others is to simply pass the buck. And when there appears to be a number of institutions which do not provide a service that is compatible with openJDK, we end up alienating portions of our userbase rather than the institution itself. There are many reasons why a banking institution may not have successfully transitioned to a more compatibile platform. Some of the reasons may be in fact downright boneheaded on their part. Regardless, businesses don't always turn on a dime when it comes to technology and I would suspect in this financial climate we're in, banking institutions would be less responsive to spending money to make changes when these days, getting money is like squeezing blood from a stone. I'd like to see a more transitional approach to openJDK so users don't get caught in the middle. For every one user here on the list, there are thousands of openSUSE downloaders out there who don't even participate on such lists to be aware of the changes in place and how to remedy it if it impacts them. Maybe you do have an effective transitional approach in mind, but it doesn't seem to be clearly defined to the community as this thread is not the first time I've heard of this issue in recent days from the community. Perhaps someone could explain it more clearly and alleviate the concerns some users here have, rather than passing the buck onto institutions which are often faceless and far less open than we are in this community. -- Bryen Yunashko Proud 2008 Candidate for openSUSE Board -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno gio, 02/10/2008 alle 13.36 -0400, Cristian Rodríguez ha scritto:
I suggest you to talk your bank customer service, I guess they are not operating your accounts for free ;-)
Answer: "We support only Microsoft Windows and Internet Explorer", which is what a lot of banks and institution do anyway. Regards, A. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 2. Oktober 2008 17:28:16 schrieb Martin Schlander:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
1) With Danske Bank - the largest Danish bank, home banking only works properly with Sun Java 1.5. With Sun Java 1.6 some core functionality doesn't work and with openjdk 1.6 you can't even login at all.
2) Another home bank system, common to many smaller Danish banks, won't work with Sun Java 1.6 on x86_64 systems (even with 32-bit firefox+32-bit java, even though it does work on full 32-bit systems with Sun Java 1.6). https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=288750
In summary, 11.1 will be unusable for Danske Bank customers and most x86_64 users without Sun Java 1.5 available - making it very difficult to recommend to anyone.
I'm certain these problems of critical java applets, that only work (properly) with Sun Java 1.5, exist for very many users in very many countries.
I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release.
I've installed sun's java 1.5 and 1.6 from the 11.0 repo manually and it worked. I downloaded it and integrated the local directory into yast.
I also encourage anyone who's dependant on Java applets to test this stuff ASAP. When 11.1 is released, it's too late to do anything about it...
-- Neues Auto? http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/details.html?id=71780305 http://www.autoscout24.de/Details.aspx?ts=290937.5&id=beuidujcy3yo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, thanks for opening this topic ... On Thursday 02 of October 2008 17:28:16 Martin Schlander wrote:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
Well, the term 'We will still provide a latest available Sun JVM' in my comment [1] was not clear. I meant, the we will continue to bring an updates for existing Sun JVMs. There was no drop of Sun Java for 11.1 and no discussion about it.
1) With Danske Bank - the largest Danish bank, home banking only works properly with Sun Java 1.5. With Sun Java 1.6 some core functionality doesn't work and with openjdk 1.6 you can't even login at all.
So could be bnc#430401 marked as WONTFIX? Because openjdk is an equivalent of Sun Java 1.6.
2) Another home bank system, common to many smaller Danish banks, won't work with Sun Java 1.6 on x86_64 systems (even with 32-bit firefox+32-bit java, even though it does work on full 32-bit systems with Sun Java 1.6). https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=288750
That's a common problem of Sun Java [2] (and maybe another ones), because there's no x86_64 java plugin.
In summary, 11.1 will be unusable for Danske Bank customers and most x86_64 users without Sun Java 1.5 available - making it very difficult to recommend to anyone.
No, but it's necessary to do some manuall work, like zypper install java-1_5_0-sun-plugin update-alternatives --config java update-alternatives --config javaplugin Maybe I (or someone else) could write a wiki page about switching to Sun Java in openSUSE ...
I suggest to include Sun Java 1.5 in the non-oss repo for 11.1. And to make this repo available for testing before release.
I also encourage anyone who's dependant on Java applets to test this stuff ASAP. When 11.1 is released, it's too late to do anything about it...
Best regards Michal Vyskocil [1] https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=430401#c1 [2] http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4802695 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Fredag 03 oktober 2008 08:35:25 skrev Michal Vyskocil:
On Thursday 02 of October 2008 17:28:16 Martin Schlander wrote:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
Well, the term 'We will still provide a latest available Sun JVM' in my comment [1] was not clear. I meant, the we will continue to bring an updates for existing Sun JVMs. There was no drop of Sun Java for 11.1 and no discussion about it.
If Sun Java 1.5 _will_ be available on non-oss repo, then I don't have any problems. If openjdk fulfills the needs of most people, I'm in favour of using it as the default. My worry here was not which is default, but just that Sun Java 1.5 be available for easy, clean installation.
1) With Danske Bank - the largest Danish bank, home banking only works properly with Sun Java 1.5. With Sun Java 1.6 some core functionality doesn't work and with openjdk 1.6 you can't even login at all.
So could be bnc#430401 marked as WONTFIX? Because openjdk is an equivalent of Sun Java 1.6.
No, #430401 refers to another Danish banking system (BEC) which is a common system used by many smaller banks. And this system _does_ work with Sun Java 1.6 (on 32-bit systems)
2) Another home bank system, common to many smaller Danish banks, won't work with Sun Java 1.6 on x86_64 systems (even with 32-bit firefox+32-bit java, even though it does work on full 32-bit systems with Sun Java 1.6). https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=288750
That's a common problem of Sun Java [2] (and maybe another ones), because there's no x86_64 java plugin.
No the problem is not the lack of a plugin, this strange error happens when using 32-bit Firefox, 32-bit Sun Java 1.6 and 32-bit Sun Java 1.6 plugin, on an otherwise 64-bit system. Presumably due to something compression related (see the bug report above). On a 100% 32-bit system there's no problem. It's a very strange problem to me too, but it's been there consistently at least since 10.0 - I test it every release.
In summary, 11.1 will be unusable for Danske Bank customers and most x86_64 users without Sun Java 1.5 available - making it very difficult to recommend to anyone.
No, but it's necessary to do some manuall work, like
zypper install java-1_5_0-sun-plugin update-alternatives --config java update-alternatives --config javaplugin
This is fully acceptable to me. The whole misunderstanding was about the availability of Sun Java 1.5 or not. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 05:28:16PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
Currently, the plan for openSUSE 11.1 is to only ship with openJDK and no Sun Java at all. AJ, Michl, can you please confirm this? Best, Christoph -- Christoph Thiel, Tech. Project Management, Research & Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 03 October 2008, Christoph Thiel wrote:
On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 05:28:16PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
Currently, the plan for openSUSE 11.1 is to only ship with openJDK and no Sun Java at all.
AJ, Michl, can you please confirm this? Yes, on the media just openJDK. But I'm not 100% clear why not distributing via online repo. There might be a legal issues (licence changes). I'll recheck with our legal folks about that and let you know what's the case with Sun Java 1.5. M
Best, Christoph -- Christoph Thiel, Tech. Project Management, Research & Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
-- Michael Löffler, Product Management SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Christoph Thiel
On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 05:28:16PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
It's my understanding that 11.1 is planned to ship with openjdk 1.6 installed by default and with (only) Sun Java 1.6 available via non-oss repo. I'd like to discuss this, as it causes some major problems - at least for Danish users.
Currently, the plan for openSUSE 11.1 is to only ship with openJDK and no Sun Java at all.
AJ, Michl, can you please confirm this?
That was the plan so far - the expectation beeing that openJDK is a full replacement under an Open Source license, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Friday 03 of October 2008 13:51:05 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
Currently, the plan for openSUSE 11.1 is to only ship with openJDK and no Sun Java at all.
AJ, Michl, can you please confirm this?
That was the plan so far - the expectation beeing that openJDK is a full replacement under an Open Source license,
The latest available version of icedtea* still has several issues [1]. 2 Michael Loeffer
There might be a legal issues (licence changes). I'll recheck with our legal folks about that and let you know what's the case with Sun Java 1.5.
The distributed JVM 1.5 is based on binary release releases [1] under DJL [2]. There was a problem with some parts of java-1_6_0-sun-src, but this is going to be fixed. * JFI: icedtea brings a opensource support for build of openjdk. And also try to reimplement some parts of Sun JVM, which was not opened (the biggest example is the Java browser plugin). The java plugin distributed with openjdk comes from gcj. [1] http://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions#What_does_and_doe... [2] https://jdk-distros.dev.java.net/ [3] http://download.java.net/dlj/DLJ-v1.1.txt Best Regards Michal Vyskocil -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Andreas Jaeger
That was the plan so far - the expectation beeing that openJDK is a full replacement under an Open Source license,
I can't think of openJDK as a full replacement of Sun JDK, however if the sun jdk is still available in the non-oss repo (and, I think it would be good to run update-alternatives automatically and set this one as default if the user decide to install it) I don't see any problem on having openJDK as the default. I write web applications using Java (not applets), and I experienced some problems with the open version that force me to switch to the sun version. -- Kind Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2008/10/3 Andreas Jaeger
That was the plan so far - the expectation beeing that openJDK is a full replacement under an Open Source license,
AFAIK openjdk is not certified as being java yet. A lot of people will need a real Java. I hope at least the official sun jdk 1.6 is provided in the non-oss repository. -- Benjamin Weber -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (12)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Andreas Jaeger -
Benji Weber -
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
Christoph Thiel -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Daniel Fuhrmann -
Gabriel -
Martin Schlander -
Michael Loeffler -
Michal Vyskocil