-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-09 18:03, Daniele wrote:

Il 09/02/2017 12:23, Josef Reidinger ha scritto:

...

Hi Factory users and developers, I am working on providing a new desktop selection dialog in installation as specified in https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/14936 . So after some tweaking and thinking I use roles functionality dialog we already had in SLES, just with desktop selection. It will allows us in future more potential tuning for specified desktops.

You can see result in https://github.com/yast/skelcd-control-openSUSE/pull/73 ( screenshots and videos ). What do you think about it? I welcome any feedback. I add there to comparison also old work-flow where is one screen with online repos which we currently integrate in desktop selection.

Thanks for any feedback

Josef

HI, I don't like the "role" word for a desktop selection.

IMHO, Gnome/kde -> same role with different DE.

Likewise, I do not understand why using the word "role". Also, it is not clear what happens when clicking "custom". Will I have to play with choosing the appropriate patterns, or will there be a simple tick to choose XFCE, LXDE, minimal X, etc? Another behaviour that should be allowed would be choosing both KDE and Gnome (and more) right at the first install (without going to patterns). - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlidHAAACgkQja8UbcUWM1xpIQD/V+qIaf6FcrukSpbsyE88RYmP bho0HCzYxCuUP8LncDQA/jdXGpyozAnLpHsMLH/UQU6QBW+rFAbMGcdatMeOSQB6 =Kdmg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-10 03:00, Simon Lees wrote:

I'll have a proper look at this later today, but for now i'll just disagree with Carlos on the above point, this part of the installer should be as simple and friendly to new and less experienced users as possible, to do that I don't think you should be able to select both at this point, power users can go into the patterns and enable extras if they would like anyway. Further to that selecting both adds further hard questions to solve, like if you select both at this point should sddm or gdm be used? If its configured to load straight to desktop bypassing login which should be selected etc?

Fair enough :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlidJfsACgkQja8UbcUWM1yaCgD+I/aPp0rXDj6p9qGJHAAHakHR 3j3aPeBwmkIArAsoN54BAI9xrXCfwRnk83dkoa+pysnYD5v+1tm/Sz59Deuj+JAP =JY35 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-10 08:57, Josef Reidinger wrote:

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:48:48 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

On 2017-02-09 18:03, Daniele wrote:

...

...

...

HI, I don't like the "role" word for a desktop selection.

IMHO, Gnome/kde -> same role with different DE.

Thanks for feedback.

...

Likewise, I do not understand why using the word "role".

So what you suggest as better name? or do you agree with simon suggestion lower, to use Desktop(GNOME) and Desktop(KDE) as role?

I don't know what to suggest, as I don't understand what "role" means in this window. I don't see what is wrong with the old wording, either :-? I see on the video that the wording later (summary screen) is "System type: text server"

...

Also, it is not clear what happens when clicking "custom". Will I have to play with choosing the appropriate patterns, or will there be a simple tick to choose XFCE, LXDE, minimal X, etc?

I hope it is clear from video. You pick pattern there which fits your needs. It is targeted for slightly more experienced users, that know what they want ( in video I choose LXDE if I remember correctly ) and it is pattern based, so it allows easy future addition of additional repos.

As video was no real video but gif, couldn't go forward or backwards or stop to recheck steps, no, sorry, I did not notice. Ok, watched again. The selection used is "Text server", so I can't see the working of "other". :-? Ah, "custom" is in the third image. Frankly, I do not like having to select a pattern in order to choose "XFCE" or "minimal X", I would like a list of desktops with buttons to choose from, like for KDE or Gnome. Perhaps a button ("more choices" or "more desktops") on the main window making the other options to appear. Then another tick, "custom", to choose patterns.

...

Another behaviour that should be allowed would be choosing both KDE and Gnome (and more) right at the first install (without going to patterns).

I worry that it would confuse users even more. E.g. which desktop manager to pick? what will be default? and some others together do not make much sense, like text based server and kde together.

Yes, Simon commented on that earlier and I saw the point. Although those doubts could be solved by assigning "numbers". This is the first preference, this the second... The desktop manager would go with the first one. It could be enabled in a new "expert mode". ;-) But experts can achieve the same using patterns. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlidfecACgkQja8UbcUWM1zUewD+KTUeRKzF7DxHAQxd2blQPxIm /1TjBzyNFAqDVNkGk7oA+gMk54TdebSR0ROKXEiyg4VMandPcuR2PYzPyrV7qhpJ =5Lih -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, In my opinion the role-based selection that SLE has does not fit openSUSE at all. Instead, I suggest keeping the current appearance and just change a few things: Add screenshots: Large enough to be distinguishable. Also with a longer description next to it, to make the decision easier. No "other" selection: Instead make the view scrollable, the usual GNOME + KDE + Nothing triplet on top is visible by default. IMO that's more fair. Also, it makes it possible to add *all* desktops we currently ship in the official repos (which only makes sense for the NET install and for the DVD with online repos active). No "Choose Patterns" button: Instead, "Minimal System" (always on the bottom, it's for experts) can be selected and the package selection edited later. Otherwise there are two ways of achieving the same result, which is IMO misleading. Add version information, if possible: Currently there is no easy way to get that information except looking at the packages directly or installing the system... Cheers, Fabian Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2017, 14:21:14 CET schrieb Roman Bysh:

On 10/02/17 02:57 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:48:48 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2017-02-09 18:03, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 09/02/2017 12:23, Josef Reidinger ha scritto:

...

Hi Factory users and developers, I am working on providing a new desktop selection dialog in installation as specified in https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/14936 . So after some tweaking and thinking I use roles functionality dialog we already had in SLES, just with desktop selection. It will allows us in future more potential tuning for specified desktops.

You can see result in https://github.com/yast/skelcd-control-openSUSE/pull/73 ( screenshots and videos ). What do you think about it? I welcome any feedback. I add there to comparison also old work-flow where is one screen with online repos which we currently integrate in desktop selection.

Thanks for any feedback

Josef

HI, I don't like the "role" word for a desktop selection.

IMHO, Gnome/kde -> same role with different DE.

Thanks for feedback.

...

Likewise, I do not understand why using the word "role".

So what you suggest as better name? or do you agree with simon suggestion lower, to use Desktop(GNOME) and Desktop(KDE) as role?

...

Also, it is not clear what happens when clicking "custom". Will I have to play with choosing the appropriate patterns, or will there be a simple tick to choose XFCE, LXDE, minimal X, etc?

I hope it is clear from video. You pick pattern there which fits your needs. It is targeted for slightly more experienced users, that know what they want ( in video I choose LXDE if I remember correctly ) and it is pattern based, so it allows easy future addition of additional repos.

...

Another behaviour that should be allowed would be choosing both KDE and Gnome (and more) right at the first install (without going to patterns).

I worry that it would confuse users even more. E.g. which desktop manager to pick? what will be default? and some others together do not make much sense, like text based server and kde together.

Josef,

Under Custom, can you please add Cinnamon. Ever since Linux Mint introduced Cinnamon it has been a very popular DE selection.

Roman

-- SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2017 06:09 AM, Fabian Vogt wrote:

Hi,

In my opinion the role-based selection that SLE has does not fit openSUSE at all. Instead, I suggest keeping the current appearance and just change a few things:

I don't mind the role based selection I think its good and simple for new users, having said that,

Add screenshots: Large enough to be distinguishable. Also with a longer description next to it, to make the decision easier.

I agree there is probably room on that screen for nice screenshots and long descriptions.

No "other" selection: Instead make the view scrollable, the usual GNOME + KDE + Nothing triplet on top is visible by default. IMO that's more fair. Also, it makes it possible to add *all* desktops we currently ship in the official repos (which only makes sense for the NET install and for the DVD with online repos active).

No "Choose Patterns" button: Instead, "Minimal System" (always on the bottom, it's for experts) can be selected and the package selection edited later. Otherwise there are two ways of achieving the same result, which is IMO misleading.

For reference the Server role is a Minimal System (A minimal system for bare metal or a vm anyway as opposed to Minimal for containers) so in this case selecting the server role would give you what your asking for. On the second "Other" page there could be a case for only showing the patterns in the "Graphical Environments" category (ie Desktops) in this case the Select Pattern wording could be changed to "Select Desktop". At the same time if all the patterns were listed there i'd probably pick my desktop of choice along with several others. Regardless of this decision it would also be nice if screenshots were shown here as well. I also think that a secondary page is the right place for this rather then a scrolling / semi hidden main page.

Add version information, if possible: Currently there is no easy way to get that information except looking at the packages directly or installing the system...

If you are interested in which version of openSUSE has a specific version of software you can always use software.opensuse.org without even having to boot the installer eg https://software.opensuse.org/package/vim, also the version on the DVD won't always be the same as the last maintenance update.

Cheers, Fabian

-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Il 11/02/2017 11:43, Fabian Vogt ha scritto:

Am Samstag, 11. Februar 2017, 13:34:45 CET schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 02/11/2017 06:09 AM, Fabian Vogt wrote:

...

Hi,

In my opinion the role-based selection that SLE has does not fit openSUSE at all. Instead, I suggest keeping the current appearance and just change a few things:

I don't mind the role based selection I think its good and simple for new users, having said that,

If it behaves the same as the current way, calling it "role-based" is IMO just confusing.

+1. Desktop selection != role. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il 11/02/2017 12:54, Simon Lees ha scritto:

On 02/11/2017 10:03 PM, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 11/02/2017 11:43, Fabian Vogt ha scritto:

...

Am Samstag, 11. Februar 2017, 13:34:45 CET schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 02/11/2017 06:09 AM, Fabian Vogt wrote:

...

Hi,

In my opinion the role-based selection that SLE has does not fit openSUSE at all. Instead, I suggest keeping the current appearance and just change a few things:

I don't mind the role based selection I think its good and simple for new users, having said that,

If it behaves the same as the current way, calling it "role-based" is IMO just confusing.

+1. Desktop selection != role.

Except its doing slightly more then just desktop selection, unless you define server as no desktop. It could also be expanded oneday for common server patterns such as LAMP or adding "Console" for people who like to have lots of console tools either way i'm not strongly attached to the name but I see the logic of selecting Server / Desktop / Other role.

...

Daniele.

At this point, you should do two steps: ROLE -> ROLE STUFF Desktop->Desktop selection Workstation->Desktop selection/?? Server->Ftp/Web/File/DB/?? But for me there are too many combinations, it will always be an half solution. Often there's no such clean separation between roles. The word "role" sounds too much corporative to me. Ok for SLES/SLED but not for openSUSE. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2017 09:13 PM, Fabian Vogt wrote:

Am Samstag, 11. Februar 2017, 13:34:45 CET schrieb Simon Lees:

...

On 02/11/2017 06:09 AM, Fabian Vogt wrote:

...

Hi,

In my opinion the role-based selection that SLE has does not fit openSUSE at all. Instead, I suggest keeping the current appearance and just change a few things:

I don't mind the role based selection I think its good and simple for new users, having said that,

If it behaves the same as the current way, calling it "role-based" is IMO just confusing.

...

...

Add screenshots: Large enough to be distinguishable. Also with a longer description next to it, to make the decision easier.

I agree there is probably room on that screen for nice screenshots and long descriptions.

...

No "other" selection: Instead make the view scrollable, the usual GNOME + KDE + Nothing triplet on top is visible by default. IMO that's more fair. Also, it makes it possible to add *all* desktops we currently ship in the official repos (which only makes sense for the NET install and for the DVD with online repos active).

No "Choose Patterns" button: Instead, "Minimal System" (always on the bottom, it's for experts) can be selected and the package selection edited later. Otherwise there are two ways of achieving the same result, which is IMO misleading.

For reference the Server role is a Minimal System (A minimal system for bare metal or a vm anyway as opposed to Minimal for containers) so in this case selecting the server role would give you what your asking for.

On the second "Other" page there could be a case for only showing the patterns in the "Graphical Environments" category (ie Desktops) in this case the Select Pattern wording could be changed to "Select Desktop". At the same time if all the patterns were listed there i'd probably pick my desktop of choice along with several others. Regardless of this decision it would also be nice if screenshots were shown here as well. I also think that a secondary page is the right place for this rather then a scrolling / semi hidden main page.

The main reason I suggested a scrolling view instead was to show everything on the same level. Having to click on a button which then opens a text-only packagemanager like view is not ideal and if opened a page that looks just like the previous one just with LXQt/Enlightenment/Xfce/... instead of KDE/GNOME/Server you can just merge them. Much easier for comparisions as well.

I think one of the specifications of the new design was to not overwhelm new users and also some desktops have more features / functionality and are easier to configure and setup then others and so for Leap at least we should be pointing beginner users to those while still making it not hard for other users to get the desktop they want if they know what it is. For tumbleweed on the other hand where we don't have new users i'd be ok with one page, other then the difference between leap and tumbleweed would cause more work for testing etc. I also don't see why it needs to be a text based page if we make the main page look nicer we could probably do the same for that one too, for now its just recycling the existing software selections page, I guess if someone has the time and effort that could change.

...

...

Add version information, if possible: Currently there is no easy way to get that information except looking at the packages directly or installing the system...

If you are interested in which version of openSUSE has a specific version of software you can always use software.opensuse.org without even having to boot the installer eg https://software.opensuse.org/package/vim, also the version on the DVD won't always be the same as the last maintenance update.

software.opensuse.org is sadly too buggy to use. It can also show the *exact* version that you get after clicking Next, whether it's from :Update, the main repo or even some other repos you added before the desktop selection.

Appart from once or twice when its been down entirely i've never had issues with it, atleast when just for using it to search for versions.

Cheers, Fabian

-- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Carlos E. R. wrote:

I don't think so. You are implying that a novice should install KDE and not XFCE. Not always so. The novice may have an old computer, so he is directed to choose XFCE or LXDE The novice can also be versed in another Linux distribution, maybe not used to suse patterns.

Actually I install XFCE for all my novice Linux users coming from Windows because that's what they are used to (looks very similar to classic desktop on Windows 7 or earlier). BTW: Using KDE is not an option at all. So I'd really prefer if the installation routine does not make it harder to choose XFCE. Ciao, Michael.

On 02/12/2017 12:10 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-02-11 14:30, Michael Ströder wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I don't think so. You are implying that a novice should install KDE and not XFCE. Not always so. The novice may have an old computer, so he is directed to choose XFCE or LXDE The novice can also be versed in another Linux distribution, maybe not used to suse patterns.

...

Actually I install XFCE for all my novice Linux users coming from Windows because that's what they are used to (looks very similar to classic desktop on Windows 7 or earlier).

Absolutely!

...

BTW: Using KDE is not an option at all.

Yes, true. Nor is gnome.

...

So I'd really prefer if the installation routine does not make it harder to choose XFCE.

Yes.

We have got slightly off track here, lets try and focus on the design elements rather then the which desktops go where, if there is enough community support / good reasoning its not hard to move a particular desktop from one spot to the other. What I hope we can agree is just presenting a list of 8 desktops + there icons too new users is quite daunting so the plan is to make something better. Where individual desktops end up sitting in that something better can be further discussed later when its done. But I can guarantee selecting whichever desktop you want won't be hard or hidden away in the new screens like selecting Mate or LXQt is at the moment. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 14:21:14 -0500 Roman Bysh wrote:

On 10/02/17 02:57 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:48:48 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

...

Il 09/02/2017 12:23, Josef Reidinger ha scritto: Another behaviour that should be allowed would be choosing both KDE and Gnome (and more) right at the first install (without going to

On 2017-02-09 18:03, Daniele wrote: patterns).

I worry that it would confuse users even more. E.g. which desktop manager to pick? what will be default? and some others together do not make much sense, like text based server and kde together.

Josef,

Under Custom, can you please add Cinnamon. Ever since Linux Mint introduced Cinnamon it has been a very popular DE selection.

Roman

That is nice about new design, anyone can add it as it is simple pattern and not something magic in installation control. And patterns are common packages - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial#Create_Patterns Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/15/2017 10:12 AM, Roman Bysh wrote:

On 13/02/17 11:09 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 14:21:14 -0500 Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 10/02/17 02:57 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:48:48 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

...

Il 09/02/2017 12:23, Josef Reidinger ha scritto: Another behaviour that should be allowed would be choosing both KDE and Gnome (and more) right at the first install (without going to

On 2017-02-09 18:03, Daniele wrote: patterns).

I worry that it would confuse users even more. E.g. which desktop manager to pick? what will be default? and some others together do not make much sense, like text based server and kde together.

Josef,

Under Custom, can you please add Cinnamon. Ever since Linux Mint introduced Cinnamon it has been a very popular DE selection.

Roman

That is nice about new design, anyone can add it as it is simple pattern and not something magic in installation control. And patterns are common packages - https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial#Create_Patterns

Josef

Didn't we decide that KDE was the default desktop several versions ago?

Roman

We may have, but in more recent times we have moved towards treating all desktops as equals. But that doesn't seem related to what we were discussing here, all the Cinnamon Maintainer needs to do to get it in the new list is create a pattern for it, most of the other desktops have good examples but if someone has questions / needs help doing it then I would be happy to provide assistance. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 17:00:25 +1030 Simon Lees wrote:

On 02/10/2017 03:33 AM, Daniele wrote:

...

Il 09/02/2017 12:23, Josef Reidinger ha scritto:

...

Hi Factory users and developers, I am working on providing a new desktop selection dialog in installation as specified in https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/14936 . So after some tweaking and thinking I use roles functionality dialog we already had in SLES, just with desktop selection. It will allows us in future more potential tuning for specified desktops.

You can see result in https://github.com/yast/skelcd-control-openSUSE/pull/73 ( screenshots and videos ). What do you think about it? I welcome any feedback. I add there to comparison also old work-flow where is one screen with online repos which we currently integrate in desktop selection.

Thanks for any feedback

Josef

HI, I don't like the "role" word for a desktop selection.

IMHO, Gnome/kde -> same role with different DE.

Bye, Daniele.

I don't mind it if the wording is changed slightly

* Desktop (Gnome) * Desktop (KDE) * Server (Text Mode) * Other

Maybe with a description for Other including alternate desktops, containers, etc.

Thanks for feeedback, I will discuss this with ludwig, who like to see this change. I personally like this idea. Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:25:14 +0100 Javier Llorente wrote:

El viernes, 10 de febrero de 2017 17:00:25 (CET) Simon Lees escribió: [...]

...

I don't mind it if the wording is changed slightly

* Desktop (Gnome) * Desktop (KDE) * Server (Text Mode) * Other

+1 I would personally avoid using parenthesis;

* KDE Desktop * GNOME Desktop * Server (Text mode) * Other

I also do not like parenthesis, but I think it make sense to have emphasis on Desktop so have it as first word. So in the end I change it as * Workstation with Gnome * Workstation with KDE Plasma * Server (Text Mode) * Other so it is clear what is Server and what is workstation. ( I do not use desktop as it can be also notebook, and desktop looks like a bit opposite of notebook ).

Greetings, -- Javier Llorente

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:16:16 +0100 "Axel Braun" wrote:

...

Gesendet: Montag, 13. Februar 2017 um 17:03 Uhr Von: "Josef Reidinger" An: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-factory] new desktop selection for opensuse

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:25:14 +0100 Javier Llorente wrote:

...

El viernes, 10 de febrero de 2017 17:00:25 (CET) Simon Lees escribió: [...]

...

I don't mind it if the wording is changed slightly

* Desktop (Gnome) * Desktop (KDE) * Server (Text Mode) * Other

+1 I would personally avoid using parenthesis;

* KDE Desktop * GNOME Desktop * Server (Text mode) * Other

I also do not like parenthesis, but I think it make sense to have emphasis on Desktop so have it as first word. So in the end I change it as

* Workstation with Gnome * Workstation with KDE Plasma * Server (Text Mode) * Other

so it is clear what is Server and what is workstation. ( I do not use desktop as it can be also notebook, and desktop looks like a bit opposite of notebook ).

and maybe even add Recommended or if unsure, use this option behind one entry - just to make life for noobs easier

Cheers Axel

I hope that keeping one option as default already give to people that hint. I worry if we add recommended to GNOME or KDE, people from another DE start shouting. Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 13. Februar 2017, 17:32:27 CET schrieb Josef Reidinger:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:16:16 +0100

"Axel Braun" wrote:

...

...

Gesendet: Montag, 13. Februar 2017 um 17:03 Uhr Von: "Josef Reidinger" An: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Betreff: Re: [opensuse-factory] new desktop selection for opensuse

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:25:14 +0100

Javier Llorente wrote:

...

El viernes, 10 de febrero de 2017 17:00:25 (CET) Simon Lees escribió: [...]

...

I don't mind it if the wording is changed slightly

* Desktop (Gnome) * Desktop (KDE) * Server (Text Mode) * Other

+1 I would personally avoid using parenthesis;

* KDE Desktop * GNOME Desktop * Server (Text mode) * Other

I also do not like parenthesis, but I think it make sense to have emphasis on Desktop so have it as first word. So in the end I change it as

* Workstation with Gnome * Workstation with KDE Plasma * Server (Text Mode) * Other

so it is clear what is Server and what is workstation. ( I do not use desktop as it can be also notebook, and desktop looks like a bit opposite of notebook ).

and maybe even add Recommended or if unsure, use this option behind one entry - just to make life for noobs easier

Cheers Axel

I hope that keeping one option as default already give to people that hint. I worry if we add recommended to GNOME or KDE, people from another DE start shouting.

Indeed, that may happen. So forget it :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2017.02.13 21:21, Felix Miata rašė:

Even though I'm a KISS believer, IMO it is a disservice to first exposure users that diminishes the apparent power of openSUSE to limit this selection list to only the two most demanding desktop environments. If XFCE, Mate, Cinnamon and/or others available as patterns cannot be included in this list as selections, then it would be good to put several in parentheses with ", etc." beside "Other" so that it's clear "Other" is not an option to be casually dismissed.

Or it could be * KDE Desktop * GNOME Desktop * Server (Text Mode) * Select desktop pattern manually And after selecting last option (and pressing Next button) open YaST software patterns dialog immediately (user should not wait installation summary to click to enter software selection). -- Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2017-02-15 a las 15:30 +0100, Josef Reidinger escribió:

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:06:05 +0200 "" <> wrote:

...

* KDE Desktop * GNOME Desktop * Server (Text Mode) * Select desktop pattern manually

And after selecting last option (and pressing Next button) open YaST software patterns dialog immediately (user should not wait installation summary to click to enter software selection).

This is what actually happen now. Only wording is Custom, as it can be any patern, not only another desktops, but you can also pick mail server, dhcp server pattern and more. so you pick yourself roles for your computer. To be honest I do not find the best wording for last option that emphasis it. But at least it is described in Help text ( at help button ).

And then another software selection at the summary screen? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlikaUQACgkQja8UbcUWM1xgIAD/eQGdAuC/JEPV6XnkpARs2kuX IprISmvBkxRuhRvvVe8A/RoUGaOliICfjwhrAZ3p6f8LkDA/I5fLzYJb2wQyovz4 =ecE/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017, Josef Reidinger wrote:

I worry it will be too confusing for beginners, we try to have easy decisions and if user need something more advanced, that for such purpose is that custom, which allows to specify any pattern you want. Also it can easily switch to flame war what should be there and what not. Goal of that dialog would be to allow easy UI for common scenarios like workstation with major desktops and minimal server. For other users we allows patterns selection and even in summary you can fine tune it with full software selection if you want. As can be seen in third gif, picking e.g. lxde is also very easy with it, just one click more.

+1 for easy selection of lxde. I hope that any replacement desktop selection menu will be as simple and straightforward as the current one. Roger -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2017, 16:49:19 CET schrieb Robert Kaiser:

Josef Reidinger schrieb:

...

I worry it will be too confusing for beginners, we try to have easy decisions and if user need something more advanced, that for such purpose is that custom, which allows to specify any pattern you want.

I agree. What about splitting the list into visual sections but still acting like one single radio group? For example:

Desktop O KDE Plasma Workstation O GNOME Workstation

Desktop O KDE Plasma Workstation O other Desktops (GNOME, Mate, ....) Server .... - this shows that KDE is the primary desktop of openSUSE - it clearly states what else is behind ('Manually select packages' is not self explaining to newbies - it looks scary IMO my 2c Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-10 16:12, Josef Reidinger wrote:

Goal of that dialog would be to allow easy UI for common scenarios like workstation with major desktops and minimal server. For other users we allows patterns selection and even in summary you can fine tune it with full software selection if you want. As can be seen in third gif, picking e.g. lxde is also very easy with it, just one click more.

First time users may want other desktops than the majors. I miss at least the "minimal graphical install" that was available on previous versions. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlieCV8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yiHwD9EObrF/MooBSOvN4nlwZj/w9p ufUqqW5IdkGgOnNEqxMA/1eGoCf46aA7jciE3XTR+l0FutmAnaw90RLdN68QcCVE =Eznf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2017 05:34 AM, Roman Bysh wrote:

On 10/02/17 01:41 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote: On 2017-02-10 16:12, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

Goal of that dialog would be to allow easy UI for common scenarios like workstation with major desktops and minimal server. For other users we allows patterns selection and even in summary you can fine tune it with full software selection if you want. As can be seen in third gif, picking e.g. lxde is also very easy with it, just one click more.

First time users may want other desktops than the majors.

I miss at least the "minimal graphical install" that was available on previous versions.

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))

...

What about Cinnamon? Very popular.

Roman

If it has a pattern in the main repo then it will show up under Other when using the Net install (from memory its not on the DVD). There was a number of criteria put forward as to why Gnome and KDE should have there own position such as accessibility openQA test coverage and some others. At some point (in another thread) we should formalize this so that if another desktop like Cinnamon or Enlightenment claims to meet this criteria they can put forward a good case to be added to the main list but that is a separate discussion. One of the main goals for this proposal is too make it easier and clearer to install Mate, Cinnamon, LXQt and others but at the same time not give new users a choice of 8+ desktops which would be confusing, choosing between 2 is hard enough. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 00:02:24 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2017-02-10 23:39, Simon Lees wrote:

...

One of the main goals for this proposal is too make it easier and clearer to install Mate, Cinnamon, LXQt and others but at the same time not give new users a choice of 8+ desktops which would be confusing, choosing between 2 is hard enough.

But having to activate other desktops via patterns is worse, I think. It makes things harder. Not everybody wanting to install one of those is an expert, may be newcomers to openSUSE.

Do you really think that checking one pattern is so hard for average experienced user? I worry we do not have any good candidates for UX testing in company. For total beginners I think KDE or gnome is good enough options and when they know about others desktop, I believe they can select pattern easily.

You can make a clickable list and differentiate first/second level choices, perhaps.

It was there before and it was hard to maintain. On other hand patterns already exists and should contain all needed stuff. It is maintained by someone who knows given desktop and not by yast team and it can be also easily extended with new ones for another desktops. Josef

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2

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On 02/14/2017 04:57 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-02-13 16:59, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 00:02:24 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

...

On 2017-02-10 23:39, Simon Lees wrote:

...

It was there before and it was hard to maintain. On other hand patterns already exists and should contain all needed stuff. It is maintained by someone who knows given desktop and not by yast team and it can be also easily extended with new ones for another desktops.

That's a good point, I admit.

But then there will not be descriptive texts nor pictures about the desktops...

Last time I looked it showed the Patterns description, if this is not descriptive enough its easily fixed. Theres also nothing preventing someone adding screenshots, this could be a fun hackweek project if its out of scope for Josef. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2017-02-12 05:59, Roman Bysh wrote:

On 10/02/17 05:39 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

We really need a screenshot next to each desktop selection so users can see what their desktop selection will look like.

That takes a lot of space. Maybe a pop-up on click, or display one entry at a time. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAligJxEACgkQja8UbcUWM1yPJQD/eITDVouA+CGbVH0gOXokCSWX Q+QSttXW5IDhRLoD5RoA/2YGF0vtyMB6J5swvHU8drmRxI5zFCJqRQBBmy3Vp0l9 =j+DD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/12/2017 08:54 PM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

On dimanche, 12 février 2017 10.12:49 h CET Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2017-02-12 05:59, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 10/02/17 05:39 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

We really need a screenshot next to each desktop selection so users can see what their desktop selection will look like.

That takes a lot of space. Maybe a pop-up on click, or display one entry at a time.

Yeah in the current "Other" page implementation you only see one description at a time so I figured 1 screenshot at a time makes sense as well.

...

-- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))

And there's text install (for minimal bare, or server) so desktop pictures :-)

And more, you will not help to maintain them accurate when upstream made changes. So minus for pictures

We manage to get new ones for the wiki every release and given we don't change branding every release anymore I think its doable (Yes thats probably me volunteering to create one for every desktop that has one missing come the first beta). -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 12/02/17 09:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2017-02-12 12:31, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 02/12/2017 08:54 PM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

On dimanche, 12 février 2017 10.12:49 h CET Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

And more, you will not help to maintain them accurate when upstream made changes. So minus for pictures

We manage to get new ones for the wiki every release and given we don't change branding every release anymore I think its doable (Yes thats probably me volunteering to create one for every desktop that has one missing come the first beta).

Surely those desktops go through QA automated testing, which includes starting the desktop. So take a capture of that start screen automatically :-? Then supersede with a manual capture if available.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Why not add: *Other Desktops where you click on a radio button. This can open a submenu showing Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Mate, XFCE ... Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2017-02-15 a las 12:31 +1030, Simon Lees escribió:

On 02/15/2017 09:39 AM, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 12/02/17 09:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Why not add:

*Other Desktops where you click on a radio button. This can open a submenu showing Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Mate, XFCE ...

Cheers!

Roman

One downside is that involves modifying yast whenever someone wants to add a new desktop whereas with this proposal all that needs to be modified to add / remove desktops is the patterns package.

True. Can't a method be designed so that it loads some configuration file that contains the desktop tittle, description, patterns needed, suggested login manager if primary desktop, link to photo, whatever else? The file could be in the install media and online, perhaps on the oss repo. The desktops listed there should be "approved", whatever the process needs to be. And would be tested with that automated process, what is it, QA? - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlijujcACgkQja8UbcUWM1yT+AD/d7sV9mljEYyslb81Kx0WWN3q lN9lDgxRFb6ylgsoAawA/jahTPimwOGwOv7VhLCC3cdyMpdGsPGgX98uxXNxOrCB =2crl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 14/02/17 09:28 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

On 02/15/2017 12:47 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

El 2017-02-15 a las 12:31 +1030, Simon Lees escribió:

...

On 02/15/2017 09:39 AM, Roman Bysh wrote:

...

On 12/02/17 09:21 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

Why not add:

*Other Desktops where you click on a radio button. This can open a submenu showing Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Mate, XFCE ...

Cheers!

Roman

...

One downside is that involves modifying yast whenever someone wants to add a new desktop whereas with this proposal all that needs to be modified to add / remove desktops is the patterns package.

True.

Can't a method be designed so that it loads some configuration file that contains the desktop tittle, description, patterns needed, suggested login manager if primary desktop, link to photo, whatever else?

The file could be in the install media and online, perhaps on the oss repo.

The desktops listed there should be "approved", whatever the process needs to be. And would be tested with that automated process, what is it, QA?

-- Cheers Carlos E. R.

(from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))

The patterns already provide all this info minus the screenshot / photo. Currently each desktop ships with its own .desktop file, which is where the icon is pulled from. If we were going to add a screenshot its likely that the .desktop file would be a better place for the link to it.

We have so much wasted space on the screen to include to shows screenshots. What about using adding a tab? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/11/2017 05:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2017-02-10 16:12, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

Goal of that dialog would be to allow easy UI for common scenarios like workstation with major desktops and minimal server. For other users we allows patterns selection and even in summary you can fine tune it with full software selection if you want. As can be seen in third gif, picking e.g. lxde is also very easy with it, just one click more.

First time users may want other desktops than the majors.

I miss at least the "minimal graphical install" that was available on previous versions.

To do that with this proposal you simply pick "Other" then the "Minimal X11 Pattern" which will give you the same result. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 02/12/2017 04:22 AM, Roger Price wrote:

On Thu, 9 Feb 2017, Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

Hi Factory users and developers, I am working on providing a new desktop selection dialog in installation as specified in https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/14936 .

Quoting from this issue #14936:

revamp the desktop selection screen

The screen needs to be redone to better explain the main options and list alternative desktop offerings in a fair way if the online repos are enabled.

I think a clearer identification of the problem with the current options would be helpful, and for example would help avoid needless GUI churning and change for the sake of change.

What would be the loss in terms of usability, reliability, security and functionality if the present interface were kept?

Roger

For tumbleweed, under the current design to be fair and equitable, we would have a list of 7 options under "Other", Xfce, LXDE, LXQt, Enlightenment, Mate, Cinnamon and Minimal X. The first issue is with the current design they won't all fit but then secondarily wouldn't it be nice to have a short description and maybe a screenshot for each? -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B