Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Results of survey on use of proprietary software in openSUSE
Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 14.27 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:
On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 18:30 +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 09.14 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:
Gentleman, I would like to point out that the teXlive\Tex\LaTex debate seems to be concerned with a relatively small group(in a world domination approach of distribution, which openSUSE needs) of university\scientific users.
I really think it's important to keep existing users before thinking to the world domination, which is, however, far if it will ever happen.
So you would rather hinder spreading openSUSE than to separate packages onto alternative sources?
[You wrote to me off-list probably by mistake, so I leave the full quotations.] Don't get me wrong. I would like openSUSE to be more adopted. But we can do that without hitting the existing users, especially if they're key-users like the university ones.
Excluding packages like LaTeX from media means excluding from the user base an important group of users: students, teachers, university labs. They won't accept to install LaTeX on each machine separately. You've to keep in mind that in many universities PC's are directly maintained by users and not by admins.
These users don't already install MSOffice from a separate media when they need it? Separating the OS installation media from the products is a well established format. Ubuntu, is catching on quite well and they use installation repositories for all but the OS.
Having to install stuff from separate media is one of the biggest complaints of users, and one of the most boring activities Windows users have to do. Ubuntu is including repository directly in the distribution and it's shipping CD's to those without a fast connection. Plus, Ubuntu targets home users mainly, and, for what I know, it's not well established into research centres where Red Hat based distributions are well established (think to CentOS, Scientific Linux, ...).
Plus, universities and research centres are where students (future users) get in contact with Linux. Do you think they will choose a distribution which requires additional media to use LaTeX (many teachers and scientific papers requires it) or a distribution which allows to install it comfortably at the installation time?
If they are university level users than they are smart enough to decipher the location of an additional product media when downloading openSUSE and choose to download the LaTex product media as well, or do you assume they are to lazy to download an extra disk? In which case how do they get the non-oss media?
You still don't get the point. There won't be any additional LaTeX media. The proposal is to leave LaTeX only on the FTP repository. The non-OSS software is on the DVD. You should know that.
It's a simple economics problem, how do you get the extra software to the people that want it without it costing you extra money every time someone who doesn't want it downloads. You provide multiple media and installation sources in a well defined library. Just because it's free software doesn't mean openSUSE should pay all the bills of your getting it!
This is the Windows way of thinking. And I'm not asking to OpenSUSE to pay any additional bill. I'm saying they should include it on the usual DVD, maybe removing really unnecessary applications like games, duplicates and such. Someone pointed out free-civ is installed by default, I don't consider it a key application.
This program group seems to take enough space to be on it's own CD\DVD. As openSUSE moves towards the idea that the base install should meet the needs of a larger group, i.e Home Users, some of the current groups are going to have to accept that there favorite program will need to be on an "Add-On" product CD\DVD.
We are not talking of creating an additional DVD or CD. We are talking about leaving LaTeX only on FTP.
see above remark containing Ubuntu reference.
Yes. I don't want OpenSUSE to be as Ubuntu. If so, I'd use it and stop using OpenSUSE, don't you think?
In terms of sharing them, this will increase the ease in which you distribute the programs to your students \ co-workers by alleviating the requirement that you have to distribute and entire distro to your students \ co-workers. Your schools \ departments could simply start saying openSUSE X.x or SLED X.x are necessary to take part in course X \ work in department X, much like they do now for other topics, and you then hand out the Tex\TeXlive DVD.
Right. I see the freedom in forcing someone to use OpenSUSE or SLED because someone else decided. The original idea was to use Linux (what distribution I like) and I will find the software I need because it works on all distributions. It's one of the principles which brought Linux to be what it is today.
Now your just pissing in the wind! Schools\Universities force homogenization on students all the time. Some Schools even force you to buy your laptop from a list of accepted versions or even from the school bookstore.
Homogenisation is sometime necessary, if you work with others. But probably you live in a quite illiberal place, because I don't know of universities which force student to buy notebooks from a list. They usually have some requirement about software, usually related to security, which is hard to define strict.
You say it yourself "and I will find the software I need because it works on all distributions", let them find it on software.opensuse.org nicely package specifically for the version they are on and easily downloaded\mirrored to the schools local repository...and they all have one!
I said in the distribution, not somewhere in an unknown repository.
We as community members are responsible to the distribution and it's well being,(that old "the good of many" thing) and in order for openSUSE to move forward it must make life easier for a much bigger group, as the 1-cd install idea does.
Right. Let the home users use the 1 CD install. And put what UNIX and Linux users want and expect to be part of the distribution on the DVD.
No one needs to download a 4 gig DVD just for a few programs and its download should eventually be discontinued (Bandwidth costs openSUSE too!)and those buying the retail version should get 3 disks; 1: OS base install (CD-1 of choice) 2: additional products (everything on the current OSS DVD minus the OS) 3: non-oss
Discontinue the DVD means again loosing users. It's probably the preferred media of installation and the fastest, more reliable one. Plus it's the one suggested by Novell developers to do reliable version upgrades. Another thing you should know.
if a particular group wants something like the "Tex" it can be constructed into an "Add-on" ISO very easily, maybe even with an on-line tool to do so, since there is already a YaST module under construction for this. It could even start a new business line for openSUSE like those adverts you see for buying copies of Linux distro's, only openSUSE could also offer any software in the build-service and any arch packed onto an ISO and mailed for $X.00
You think too much to business ;-) This adds complexity to the already complex openSUSE. This is another very frequent complaint we hear about openSUSE. It's not the case to make things worse.
To win, Linux has to be accessible to everyone (another basic principle), also those without a fast connection, and they're a lot, for various reasons. That's why it's important to have at least one "complete" set of media.
In that case, a library of downloadable\shipable sub-product RPM's\ISO's makes even more sense, i.e. I can afford an hour of downloads this month and I want the new openSUSE and the scientific tools group, I get CD1-gnome in 15 minutes and the scientific tools in another 20, Now I have 25 minutes to get a new game or two ;) vs I got the core dvd in 70 minutes hope I can scrape up the extra cash somehow. I shouldn't take from openSUSE or my co-workers\family any unnecessary bandwidth.
Considering the download times you reported, you're assuming your zone is reached by a fast connection. That's not always the case. You should also consider less rich countries, where Linux has a huge potential user base and where Linux is spreading probably more rapidly than in our world. To conclude, using aka_druid's words, "removing tex utils from the dvd will annoy academic users, and that's bad, period". :-) With kind regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 22:32 +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 14.27 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:
On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 18:30 +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 09.14 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:
Gentleman, I would like to point out that the teXlive\Tex\LaTex debate seems to be concerned with a relatively small group(in a world domination approach of distribution, which openSUSE needs) of university\scientific users.
I really think it's important to keep existing users before thinking to the world domination, which is, however, far if it will ever happen.
So you would rather hinder spreading openSUSE than to separate packages onto alternative sources?
[You wrote to me off-list probably by mistake, so I leave the full quotations.]
Don't get me wrong. I would like openSUSE to be more adopted. But we can do that without hitting the existing users, especially if they're key-users like the university ones.
Excluding packages like LaTeX from media means excluding from the user base an important group of users: students, teachers, university labs. They won't accept to install LaTeX on each machine separately. You've to keep in mind that in many universities PC's are directly maintained by users and not by admins.
These users don't already install MSOffice from a separate media when they need it? Separating the OS installation media from the products is a well established format. Ubuntu, is catching on quite well and they use installation repositories for all but the OS.
Having to install stuff from separate media is one of the biggest complaints of users, and one of the most boring activities Windows users have to do.
Most of the people I introduce to openSUSE complain about how long it takes to install and can't believe it takes an entire DVD just to get Linux running. Point is, you can't please everyone!
Ubuntu is including repository directly in the distribution
I'm betting openSUSE will do this soon as well.
and it's shipping CD's to those without a fast connection. Plus, Ubuntu targets home users mainly, and, for what I know, it's not well established into research centres where Red Hat based distributions are well established (think to CentOS, Scientific Linux, ...).
Plus, universities and research centres are where students (future users) get in contact with Linux. Do you think they will choose a distribution which requires additional media to use LaTeX (many teachers and scientific papers requires it) or a distribution which allows to install it comfortably at the installation time?
If they are university level users than they are smart enough to decipher the location of an additional product media when downloading openSUSE and choose to download the LaTex product media as well, or do you assume they are to lazy to download an extra disk? In which case how do they get the non-oss media?
You still don't get the point. There won't be any additional LaTeX media. The proposal is to leave LaTeX only on the FTP repository.
There would be if community members made one instead of demanding the devs to carry it on their backs.
The non-OSS software is on the DVD. You should know that.
Only on the retail DVD, not the download DVD. any research center or University worth it's salt has a WW3 pipe to the internet and the really good ones are part of our mirror service.
It's a simple economics problem, how do you get the extra software to the people that want it without it costing you extra money every time someone who doesn't want it downloads. You provide multiple media and installation sources in a well defined library. Just because it's free software doesn't mean openSUSE should pay all the bills of your getting it!
This is the Windows way of thinking.
no, this is an intelligent, economically sensible way of thinking
And I'm not asking to OpenSUSE to pay any additional bill. I'm saying they should include it on the usual DVD,
making the DVD costs more than making a CD, as well as the bandwidth to download it.
maybe removing really unnecessary applications like games, duplicates and such. Someone pointed out free-civ is installed by default, I don't consider it a key application.
This program group seems to take enough space to be on it's own CD\DVD. As openSUSE moves towards the idea that the base install should meet the needs of a larger group, i.e Home Users, some of the current groups are going to have to accept that there favorite program will need to be on an "Add-On" product CD\DVD.
We are not talking of creating an additional DVD or CD. We are talking about leaving LaTeX only on FTP.
see above remark containing Ubuntu reference.
Yes. I don't want OpenSUSE to be as Ubuntu. If so, I'd use it and stop using OpenSUSE, don't you think?
In terms of sharing them, this will increase the ease in which you distribute the programs to your students \ co-workers by alleviating the requirement that you have to distribute and entire distro to your students \ co-workers. Your schools \ departments could simply start saying openSUSE X.x or SLED X.x are necessary to take part in course X \ work in department X, much like they do now for other topics, and you then hand out the Tex\TeXlive DVD.
Right. I see the freedom in forcing someone to use OpenSUSE or SLED because someone else decided. The original idea was to use Linux (what distribution I like) and I will find the software I need because it works on all distributions. It's one of the principles which brought Linux to be what it is today.
Now your just pissing in the wind! Schools\Universities force homogenization on students all the time. Some Schools even force you to buy your laptop from a list of accepted versions or even from the school bookstore.
Homogenisation is sometime necessary, if you work with others. But probably you live in a quite illiberal place, because I don't know of universities which force student to buy notebooks from a list. They usually have some requirement about software, usually related to security, which is hard to define strict.
You say it yourself "and I will find the software I need because it works on all distributions", let them find it on software.opensuse.org nicely package specifically for the version they are on and easily downloaded\mirrored to the schools local repository...and they all have one!
I said in the distribution, not somewhere in an unknown repository.
Put it in the Education Desktop repository and publicize it more..;)
We as community members are responsible to the distribution and it's well being,(that old "the good of many" thing) and in order for openSUSE to move forward it must make life easier for a much bigger group, as the 1-cd install idea does.
Right. Let the home users use the 1 CD install. And put what UNIX and Linux users want and expect to be part of the distribution on the DVD.
No one needs to download a 4 gig DVD just for a few programs and its download should eventually be discontinued (Bandwidth costs openSUSE too!)and those buying the retail version should get 3 disks; 1: OS base install (CD-1 of choice) 2: additional products (everything on the current OSS DVD minus the OS) 3: non-oss
Discontinue the DVD means again loosing users. It's probably the preferred media of installation and the fastest, more reliable one.
Not if the base CD, repositories and categories are established and published correctly.
Plus it's the one suggested by Novell developers to do reliable version upgrades. Another thing you should know.
Only because they have to support the best option available today.
if a particular group wants something like the "Tex" it can be constructed into an "Add-on" ISO very easily, maybe even with an on-line tool to do so, since there is already a YaST module under construction for this. It could even start a new business line for openSUSE like those adverts you see for buying copies of Linux distro's, only openSUSE could also offer any software in the build-service and any arch packed onto an ISO and mailed for $X.00
You think too much to business ;-) This adds complexity to the already complex openSUSE. This is another very frequent complaint we hear about openSUSE. It's not the case to make things worse.
The complexity complaints your referring to are due to the clutter and confusion caused by supporting 4g of software most users don't even know what it is.
To win, Linux has to be accessible to everyone (another basic principle), also those without a fast connection, and they're a lot, for various reasons. That's why it's important to have at least one "complete" set of media.
In that case, a library of downloadable\shipable sub-product RPM's\ISO's makes even more sense, i.e. I can afford an hour of downloads this month and I want the new openSUSE and the scientific tools group, I get CD1-gnome in 15 minutes and the scientific tools in another 20, Now I have 25 minutes to get a new game or two ;) vs I got the core dvd in 70 minutes hope I can scrape up the extra cash somehow. I shouldn't take from openSUSE or my co-workers\family any unnecessary bandwidth.
Considering the download times you reported, you're assuming your zone is reached by a fast connection. That's not always the case. You should also consider less rich countries, where Linux has a huge potential user base and where Linux is spreading probably more rapidly than in our world.
Then they must be buying the retail package aka boxed set, and it could easily include Add-on Cd's packaged according to intended use i.e. openSUSE for Schools, openSUSE for Architects , openSUSE thin client server, etc...
To conclude, using aka_druid's words, "removing tex utils from the dvd will annoy academic users, and that's bad, period". :-)
If we don't begin to separate software into categories with there own sources\media, we will soon have to ship a 500g HD just to get it all on the same disk. Read my signature, I am an Education user and I am very aware of what my College\University peers are doing. Can many others here say the same? -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Newmarket,NH http://en.opensuse.org/Education "let's make a difference" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
James Tremblay wrote: <STUFF DELETED>
Having to install stuff from separate media is one of the biggest complaints of users, and one of the most boring activities Windows users have to do.
Most of the people I introduce to openSUSE complain about how long it takes to install and can't believe it takes an entire DVD just to get Linux running. Point is, you can't please everyone!
Point is everyone isn't clued in. Just ask them what is included in Windows compared to what's in openSUSE. If they use a decent range of programs, just let them count the number of CD's they have and the time they spent installing them - as suggested above. When I installed openSUSE as the only OS for a relative, a smart Windows person remarked that she was amazed at the number of applications included as standard. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno dom, 08/07/2007 alle 20.11 -0400, James Tremblay ha scritto:
Most of the people I introduce to openSUSE complain about how long it takes to install and can't believe it takes an entire DVD just to get Linux running.
This is not going to improve neither with the netinstall nor with the 1 CD install. Even Vista uses a DVD ;-)
You still don't get the point. There won't be any additional LaTeX media. The proposal is to leave LaTeX only on the FTP repository.
There would be if community members made one instead of demanding the devs to carry it on their backs.
Being LaTeX a key package of any UNIX/Linux distribution for ages, noone felt the need to prepare it.
The non-OSS software is on the DVD. You should know that.
Only on the retail DVD, not the download DVD.
Also on download non-OSS DVD (it's identical to the retail one, just split in two, one for each platform while the retail DVD is dual-layer).
Put it in the Education Desktop repository and publicize it more..;)
Hehe. The Edu repository is a great idea. But LaTeX is not only used in education. Check the CTAN usage statistics.
Plus it's the one suggested by Novell developers to do reliable version upgrades. Another thing you should know.
Only because they have to support the best option available today.
Because network is not that reliable ;-) Just do some netinstall and you'll see even big servers like gwdg have issues.
The complexity complaints your referring to are due to the clutter and confusion caused by supporting 4g of software most users don't even know what it is.
I was referring to the complexity of the package manager interface, the need to manually add repositories and such. Software selection is not the issue, being the same on all major distributions.
Then they must be buying the retail package aka boxed set, and it could easily include Add-on Cd's packaged according to intended use i.e. openSUSE for Schools, openSUSE for Architects , openSUSE thin client server, etc...
Right, they should buy a box with the _whole_ distribution inside, or at least the greatest part of it. But it's contradictory to ask for TeX removal and then suggest to buy the box. About the various flavours of openSUSE, for now I think there's no market for all these kind of boxes. And I don't think it would help the management of the distribution that
To conclude, using aka_druid's words, "removing tex utils from the dvd will annoy academic users, and that's bad, period". :-)
If we don't begin to separate software into categories with there own sources\media, we will soon have to ship a 500g HD just to get it all on the same disk.
I agree in part. There are applications not used by a lot of people which are provided. If you consider TeX and sums the users who use it "sometimes", "often" and "very often" you'll obtain something around 28%, which is not negligible. I'm not sure, but probably some development tool and some server are less used.
Read my signature, I am an Education user and I am very aware of what my College\University peers are doing. Can many others here say the same?
I'm an education user too. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (3)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
James Tremblay -
Sid Boyce