On Thursday 30 August 2007 10:21:34 CyberOrg wrote:

On 8/30/07, Alexey Eremenko wrote:.

...

More specifically, the ability to recover from Graphics Adapter misconfigurations.

It is called: BulletProofX !

I would like to see this included into openSUSE (11.0 ?), and available as an addon for openSUSE 10.3.

It is a good idea, if X fails to load, we can have 'sax2 -a' run and try launching X again, if that doesn't work, cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf.install /etc/X11/xorg.conf and then launch X.

Worth enhancement request on bugzilla.

Cheers

-J --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Why to use sax2 -a? I have not tested it, but I suppose it will have his own problems trying to find the best configuration automagically. To me the Ubuntu way is better, give the user a failsafe GUI mode from where he can use SaX2 with his GUI. Also even if they gave it a fancy name, looks like they basically are using the option "FailsafeXServer" from gdm.conf: "An X command line in case we can't start the normal X server. should probably be some sort of a script that runs an appropriate low resolution X server that will just work. This is tried before the XKeepsCrashing script is run.". Something simple, easy and, I suppose, tested by GDM developers. We need the same support in KDM, that right now isn't available (if someone wants to submit a patch...), but even if we do not modify KDM from the comments in the Ubuntu wiki looks like KDM developers are working on this anyway. So I would vote for: a) Perhaps put something that makes sense in the option FailsafeXServer for Gnome users in 10.3? b) Copy the Ubuntu way for 10.3+1, adding support for a FailsafeXServer-like option to KDM if needed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

CyberOrg escribió:

Yeah, it has been around for a long time, it works quite well.

Indeed, it works just fine.

now we should make it automatic so user doesn't have to know any commands or do it manually.

Hrmm.. yes, but in what specific situations should it be triggered automagically ? Im not sure if all the situations can be covered.. -- Cristian Rodríguez R. SUSE R&D "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." --Ray Bradbury --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

and that exists in SUSE since many many years.

type

sax.sh -a in the command line and get your messed up configuration fixed.

You didn't get the point. It is intended for Windows users, who don't want to type at all.

It should "just work", and no SUSE doesn't have it. I have replaced my nVidia card with internal VIA KM400 video chip, and know what ? openSUSE's X crashed !

It may have existed, but... who knew? I've been using SUSE since 6.0. I never knew it existed. I may be documented somewhere, but your average user won't see it or understand it. If you say man sax2, I'll say "go away!" (the polite translation of what I would really be saying) New users are really baffled by it all when X dies and they are stuck at the CLI. I can deal with it, and I know how to recover it (although I've NEVER heard of or used sax.sh -a), but some poor new user is really lost. So.. I would say this is definitely a critical request. Stop thinking like a programmer/power user and start thinking like an end user... Elegant X crash recovery is desperately needed as Alexey pointed out. C --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 8/30/07, Cristian Rodriguez wrote:

Clayton escribió:

...

So.. I would say this is definitely a critical request.

Then our concept of critical is very different.

And you've missed the point altogether.... thinking like a programmer/developer is fine if that is to be the audience for openSUSE.... but you're leaving the general user out in the cold. As a friend of mine says to me when I'm trying to explain how to do something on his Linux install (he is only a recent Linux user) "You're going all kernel on me again!" Saying that sax.sh -a is a perfectly fine solution to the problem is "going all kernel" on people. C. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Frank-Michael Fischer escribió:

"sax.sh -a"? What kind of a joke is this supposed to be?

no joke, when your xserver is misconfigured and dont work, you are redirected to a console no ? so, sax.sh -a will just fix your problem.. Somebody

deserving the description "user" versus "administrator" or "programmer" should not even be allowed to know, that "sax" exists.

you already use sax, to configure your X server anyway, but via the GUI that is not available when X crashes because there is no X server running then ;) -- Cristian Rodríguez R. SUSE R&D "You don't have to burn books to destroy a culture. Just get people to stop reading them." --Ray Bradbury --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

...

On Thu, Aug 30, 2007 at 6:32 PM, in message , "Benji Weber" wrote: On 30/08/2007, Cristian Rodriguez wrote: no joke, when your xserver is misconfigured and dont work, you are redirected to a console no ? so, sax.sh -a will just fix your

Dear all For a solution some of you could help to create, the idea is using YaST profile + SaX2 -a with a boot menu options which trigger a flag to run SaX2 -a as needed and if X being configure correctly it will using YaST profile to reserve the configuration. Of course you can use the same way to boot menu trigger the SaX -a or even firsttime, but "very end user" may like the automagically way. ----------------------------------- 刘俊贤 Alex Lau PRC Beijing Linux R&D Engineer Mainland-Mobile (8610) 13910181404 HongKong-Mobile (852) 91621631 problem..

I think the original point was it would be nicer to redirect

straight

to sax2 -a. sax2 -a whilst solving the problem is completely useless to anyone who doesn't know that it exists.

_ Benjamin Weber

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Hello, on Donnerstag, 30. August 2007, Benji Weber wrote: [...]

I would have thought it would be more sensible to add a check to the /etc/init.d/xdm init script to start SaX2 in event of displaymanager failing to start.

Yes, would be a nice enhancement.

Unfortunately KDM returns 0 on X start failure, and the init script thinks it was successful.

Sounds like a bug - is this already in bugzilla? Regards, Christian Boltz -- 31.8.-3.9.2007: Weinfest und Jubiläum 1225 Jahre Insheim Pig Slip, Hifi-Delity, Human Fact, Frank Petersen und die Söhne Insheims spielen bei der Landjugend. Mehr Infos: www.Landjugend-Insheim.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 31/08/2007, Sid Boyce wrote:

Reading the Ubuntu complaints, it seems the guy who dreamt this up, did it as a kludge for his usual screwups. With Mandriva I never get a failure, if I have a new kernel with the nvidia driver not built for it, no problem I get the kernel nv_drv loaded instead, no 3D, but just works. I've promised to delve into how it's done, but haven't got around to it. It's been so in Mandriva going way back, worth looking into as it's been bullet proof for so long. Regards

Yes, this is usually the case on SUSE too, falls back to nv, but there are situations where it can fail. e.g someone changes their monitor (should improve with xorg 7.3), or someone uses something like nvidia-settings which has been known to corrupt the xorg config file . Or dodgy driver installer from ATI etc. Obviously the best situation is when nothing goes wrong, this is about contingency for when it does. Ubuntu's "bulletproofX" is mostly hype as they're just utilising an existing functionality of GDM, but it would be nice to have the same functionality. _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 31/08/2007, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

To configure the nvidia driver, if not using the RPM's or if something goes wrong with them, the user is supposed to write something like:

SaX2 -r -m 0=nvidia

So, there is no surprise in requiring to the user to know SaX.

But the RPMs are the recommended method for most users. There's also "switch2nvidia" they might use instead of sax2. _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

BulletProofX can really enlarge our user base to lots of new Windows users alike.

It is very important to test this technology, and later integrate into our OS.

You haven't read Benji's mail, have you? I'll quote to make it easier for you:

Ubuntu's "bulletproofX" is mostly hype as they're just utilising an existing functionality of GDM, but it would be nice to have the same functionality.

So in order to "test and integrate", you'd first have to implement the same functionality in a way suitable for openSUSE. Volunteers anyone? Philipp --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2007/8/31, Alberto Passalacqua :

. So, there is no surprise in requiring to the user to know SaX.

Well I know sax well enough, and use cli to configure my system a lot. but sax2 is one of command you don't use that often and I have to type sax2 --help to remember the switches and say "Ah yes!" afterwards. I would not mind at all if the system would do that for me. It would be a valuable feature. And I think it is stupid to dismiss any idea of automation, just because it can be done by hand. I wonder how many of you still write xorg.conf, mount usb-sticks or load modules by hand? I still do if I have to, but I'm much happier if computer does it for me. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 30 August 2007 16:15:41 Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

Christian Morales Vega wrote:

...

On Thursday 30 August 2007 10:09:44 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

Hi Susers !

Ubuntu team have just developed an excellent technology, that existed in Windows for many years before.

More specifically, the ability to recover from Graphics Adapter misconfigurations.

It is called: BulletProofX !

I would like to see this included into openSUSE (11.0 ?), and available as an addon for openSUSE 10.3.

Home Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BulletProofX

Ubuntu wiki talks about "Xorg7.3Integration"... will X.org 7.3 help with this? I understand that it will provide input and ouput hotplug, but can this help? What are the normal problems that make X unable to start, are just misconfigured "Device Section" or there are other things that can make it unable to start (even if we have EDID...)? And what is going Ubuntu to make exactly? They talk about a "GDM Failsafe Server that isn't supported by KDM"???

Have a look e.g. at Bug 304142. Such or similar may come up with new monitor device name strings and/or graphics chipsets anytime.

FMF

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Well, that was a bug in SaX2. Even if we had something like BulletProofX a bug like that one would have the same consequences. Same problem for Ubuntu if their DisplayConfigGTK happens to have a similar bug. There is little we can do to avoid a problem like the one shown in that bug. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org