Le 24/10/2011 20:35, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

I think you could add info on KDE3 being included in 12.1. Possibly it worth mentioning that this makes asylum for at least a part of users who dislike Gnome 3.

please feel free to add some (10??) lines to the pad about kde3. I was a happy user of kde3, but did'nt use it since two years and don't feel able to comment on it - don't worry about the style, we will take care of that if necessary (just in case, not for you personnally) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 24.10.2011 21:06, schrieb Vincent Untz:

Le lundi 24 octobre 2011, à 22:35 +0400, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

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On Monday 24 October 2011 22:24:09 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

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Your marketeers have been working on the product highlights for 12.1 but especially in the more technical area's we are quite prone to making mistakes and missing Cool Stuff(TM). We therefor would like to ask you to spend a bit of your time on reviewing of and adding to our release notes, in draft on ietherpad:

http://ietherpad.com/12-1-release-notes

I think you could add info on KDE3 being included in 12.1. Possibly it worth mentioning that this makes asylum for at least a part of users who dislike Gnome 3. I'd disagree on mentioning something about asylum or disliking GNOME 3 (or anything else that we ship in openSUSE): the product highlights should be positive and focus on good things, and should not give the feeling that something might be bad.

If talking about KDE 3, the best thing to do, imho, is to talk about desktop diversity that we support and offering a desktop that some users are looking for. Ie, talk about what's positive in KDE 3, not what's negative elsewhere.

(I'm still unclear on what parts of KDE 3 we ship, though -- this would be something to mention)

totally agree. The best way is to call it: "If you like KDE *more* then the other desktop environments, we also ship it for you." This doesn´t say that other DE´s are crap and it also speaks to the user and tells him that we care about *each* single desire. What do you think? --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 October 2011 23:06:22 Vincent Untz wrote:

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Your marketeers have been working on the product highlights for 12.1 but especially in the more technical area's we are quite prone to making mistakes and missing Cool Stuff(TM). We therefor would like to ask you to spend a bit of your time on reviewing of and adding to our release notes, in draft on ietherpad:

http://ietherpad.com/12-1-release-notes

I think you could add info on KDE3 being included in 12.1. Possibly it worth mentioning that this makes asylum for at least a part of users who dislike Gnome 3.

I'd disagree on mentioning something about asylum or disliking GNOME 3 (or anything else that we ship in openSUSE): the product highlights should be positive and focus on good things, and should not give the feeling that something might be bad.

The sentence was as follows: "openSUSE team hopes that this inclusion will help those people who used to use Gnome 2 but not satisfied with the state of Gnome 3 yet." I removed it now. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 24 Oct 2011 22:35:37 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

I think you could add info on KDE3 being included in 12.1. Possibly it worth mentioning that this makes asylum for at least a part of users who dislike Gnome 3.

This is my strong objection to mentioning KDE 3 in our 12.1 marketing and release notes. SUSE has a long and undistinguished history of letting noisy tails wag the whole dog, but there is no need for the openSUSE project to continue this. Martin Gräßlin approaches the problems facing the Trinity fork of KDE 3 in this article at freiesmagazin [1] (German), but to apply his analysis to the KDE:KDE3 packages and our distribution, and for those who don't read German or trust machine translation, my objection comes down to 2 major things. In case you aren't aware of my qualifications to make this assessment, I've been part of the team maintaining KDE at SUSE for the past 6 going on 7 years. 1) Quality and security. Despite the KDE:KDE3 maintainer's high degree of activity in packaging every KDE 3 app out there and adapting the KDE 3 platform to build on current distributions, it is a mistake to equate this with sufficient maintenance to ensure adequate code quality to include this in our distribution. The KDE 3 and Qt 3 codebases are massive, include code in all the worst places to have a vulnerability, have been essentially unmaintained for over 2 years now, and *include many known bugs and vulnerabilities that have only been fixed in the 4 releases*. Assurances that the project is now maintained upstream by the Trinity project are hollow; the Trinity group is only a handful of people, none of whom are the original maintainers or developers of the code, and most of their effort is spent on writing a Qt4 compatibility layer and in porting the build system to cmake, not maintenance. In any case, the packages in KDE:KDE3 are based on 3.5.10 and only include some changes from the Trinity project's fork, which is now 3.5.12. openSUSE Factory maintainers made an error of judgement to resume including KDE 3 packages while they demonstrably fulfil the latter 3 of our drop criteria [2], and marketing should not join them in this. 2) The message sent by a retrograde step. Being unique in a bad way is not good for the project. Making a thing out of including KDE 3 is saying that we as a project invest energy in going backwards, and push (sorry) futile efforts as features. The set of KDE 3 users who have not yet switched to KDE 4 or to something else is small and we are not going to win more users, more contributors or recognition for the distro by speaking to these users' needs.

Also it worth mentioning that openSUSE is the first distribution where KDE3 was returned back.

First and only because major distributions have a vision of where they want to go and how to invest their energy that isn't "be all things to all people, regardless". openSUSE should be a meritocracy, where things that have merit get included, instead of uncritically rewarding any activity.

openSUSE is a distro with greatest choice of desktop environments out there which is a major advantage. This became possible due to wonderful OBS.

Yes, the OBS is wonderful, but openSUSE the distribution doesn't have to include everything OBS builds. The OBS and Studio also make it easy to spin your own niche distribution based on openSUSE. Sincerely Will [1] http://www.freiesmagazin.de/mobil/freiesMagazin-2011-09- bilder.html#11_09_trinity [2] http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_drop_policy -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2011/10/25 01:41 (GMT+0200) Pascal Bleser composed:

Everyone besides a small niche has moved to KDE4, and KDE4 is definitely ready for the job.

That "small" niche includes some users dependent on KDE3 features that remain missing in KDE 4.7 (e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556), not to mention intolerable new bugs in KDE4 (e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366). -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 24. Oktober 2011, 21:11:44 schrieb Felix Miata:

On 2011/10/25 01:41 (GMT+0200) Pascal Bleser composed:

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Everyone besides a small niche has moved to KDE4, and KDE4 is definitely ready for the job.

That "small" niche includes some users dependent on KDE3 features that remain missing in KDE 4.7 (e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158556)

How can one *depend* on such a feature? Depend for me means that you cannot work without it. How is that possible, especially since hiding the panel is possible, it's just that one way of hiding which is not available.

not to mention intolerable new bugs in KDE4 (e.g. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=283366).

This is a niche bug and openSUSE is not a niche distro. So this bug is not intolerable but "in-noticeable" for 99%+ of openSUSE users. Of course I do not know the latter but my assumptions are at least as valid as yours when you use this "bug" as an argument for calling it intolerable and including KDE3. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 09:50:55 schrieb Felix Miata:

e.g. means example. It's the first such feature that comes to mind in this kind of thread, but hardly the only.

Don't blame me if you pick some minor example – I cannot see what other examples you think of.

I take a lot of screenshots. They usually depend on windows staying put. I have to arrange them with the panel out of the way for that to happen. Autohide doesn't work for that purpose, while I need access to what the panel contains up until the last moment before clicking the shutter.

Then you will be happy to learn that activities will have different/no panels in the future and you can have your screenshot activity without any panel.

KDE4 should have had an entirely new name from its inception, since it is apparent there was never an intent that it would be everything good that KDE3 was.

The only thing apparent to me is that "good" is subjective in this case. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue 25 Oct 2011 12:41:26 NZDT +1300, Pascal Bleser wrote:

But the situation has changed, a lot. KDE3 really is a dead cow.

As is KDE4 if it's not really careful really soon.

While the point back then was that almost everyone was on KDE3 and that KDE4 wasn't ready for prime time, and that we would alienate a lot of users, this is absolutely not the case any more as of today. Everyone besides a small niche has moved to KDE4, and KDE4 is definitely ready for the job.

It's ready for some jobs, if you're prepared to put up with a lot of nonsense. I was using KDE3 on 11.1 and was looking forward to 11.4 a few months ago. konqueror3 was getting very long in the tooth and failing with lockups on many sites, or failing outright on javascript, but in comparison konqueror4 is just rubbish - it doesn't even handle the pfsense (firewall) UI just to mention one of the many javascript site that actually work in 3 and are dead in 4. I was trying hard to avoid the mozbloat, but bloat beats dead duck. Quite a few apps are nowhere to be seen in KDE4, like quanta. KDE4 has quite some way to go to reach where KDE3 used to be. It's way to buggy. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=258916 must about take the prize for duplicates - KDE parts crashing more than once a day and no idea where to start looking for the bug after 9 months. The only KDE bug report I had an instant response to was about the desktop 3D-flipcrap gizmos. I hope that's not indicative for where the development effort is concentrated. Gtk apps are getting steadily better, soon there'll be no point in having KDE at all. With KDE4 not having caught up yet there's talk about qt5. Is that going to be a repeat of years of unfinished deadlined 4 with gutless useless 5? Sure there are a few good things in KDE 4 but sorry the bottom line is a disappointment. I appreciate the apps from 3 that are still around and working. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 05:09, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

Anyway, I just want to point out that if some software can be proven to "have no future", then the same argument can be applied to any other software whatsoever. For example, one can arguably claim that KDE4 has no future because it will be superseded with KDE5, Gnome 3 will be superseded by Gnome 4 etc.

AFAIK KDE5 won´t change that much like KDE4 did, so I guess it will be a KDE4 which is polished and tidied up a bit and running on top of Qt5. Correct me please, if I´m wrong.

There is simply no software with provably infinite future in the world. One only can speculate about the possible expected term of actual state for any piece of the software.

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In case you aren't aware of my qualifications to make this assessment, I've been part of the team maintaining KDE at SUSE for the past 6 going on 7 years.

1) Quality and security. Despite the KDE:KDE3 maintainer's high degree of activity in packaging every KDE 3 app out there and adapting the KDE 3 platform to build on current distributions, it is a mistake to equate this with sufficient maintenance to ensure adequate code quality to include this in our distribution. At least I am sure the code's quality did not decrease since the last KDE 3 release, don't you think so?

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The KDE 3 and Qt 3 codebases are massive, include code in all the worst places to have a vulnerability, have been essentially unmaintained for over 2 years now, and *include many known bugs and vulnerabilities that have only been fixed in the 4 releases*. Good. Can you provide some links to the vulnerabilities bugreports or something related?

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Assurances that the project is now maintained upstream by the Trinity project are hollow; the Trinity group is only a handful of people, none of whom are the original maintainers or developers of the code, This is also the case of KDE4. Who of the KDE4 team are the original developers of KDE 1 or KDE 2 ?

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and most of their effort is spent on writing a Qt4 compatibility layer and in porting the build system to cmake, not maintenance. I think it would be impossible to port the code to cmake without maintenance? Am I wrong?

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In any case, the packages in KDE:KDE3 are based on 3.5.10 and only include some changes from the Trinity project's fork, which is now 3.5.12. This is true. But we also include changes from other sources. There are many KDE 3 maintenance projects, associated with various distributions.

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openSUSE Factory maintainers made an error of judgement to resume including KDE 3 packages while they demonstrably fulfil the latter 3 of our drop criteria [2], and marketing should not join them in this.

2) The message sent by a retrograde step. Being unique in a bad way is not good for the project. I fail to see how having more users satisfied is bad. Can you elaborate this?

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Making a thing out of including KDE 3 is saying that we as a project invest energy in going backwards, and push (sorry) futile efforts as features. The set of KDE 3 users who have not yet switched to KDE 4 or to something else is small and we are not going to win more users, more contributors or recognition for the distro by speaking to these users' needs. This is very doubtful. Can you support this claim? I frequently see posts on Russian forums from people who say they switched from other distributions to openSUSE just because of KDE3. For example this user says he switched from Mandriva-2008 to openSUSE because of KDE 3:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Funixforum.org%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D129015

These users a still a little minority. I don´t think it´s bad or wasting time to support them, but you might don´t want to include it in the release notes, because KDE3 is out of the mainstream. And how WIll pointed out: Saying we´re still supporting KDE3 in the release notes of a new product makes us sound like "we´re supporting everything and everyone who wants" Not quite bad, but in the end people could think openSUSE is a lost and found box for stranded projects. Sorry. Why not writing: "We´re supporting many desktops and window managers like KDE4, GNOME3, Xfce, LXDE, fluxbox and many more. Just discover it!" I think there´s nothing wrong with supporting as many desktops as you can, but at some point you have to make a line and decide what the vast majority want to know and how they will react about it. hope you understood me, --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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I think there´s nothing wrong with supporting as many desktops as you can, but at some point you have to make a line and decide what

Am 25.10.2011 13:55, schrieb Ilya Chernykh: the vast

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majority want to know and how they will react about it. Indeed. I just cannot get why you think people will be uninterested. Just remember the recent heavy discussions in LWN and the like.

I beg to differ. Maybe they will be interested in articles on LWN or elsewhere, but I don´t think that KDE3, a software collection that we´re shipping since the 2002, belongs to the release notes / product highlights of openSUSE 12.1, which is released 9 years after the initial KDE 3.0 release. I think Robert´s car comparison matches the situation best. Or are you driving a Ford T? ;-) --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 17:46, schrieb jdd:

Le 25/10/2011 15:17, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

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Or are you driving a Ford T? ;-)

if you make a show and advertise "come and you will be able to drive a ford T", I come soon!!

jdd

unfortunately I sold my last one three days ago. No serious, would it be fun to you to drive such a car every time you need an automobile? -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 11:37:47 schrieb Will Stephenson:

Finally, if I may suggest a more useful way to please the diehards while making openSUSE unique: just port KDE 3 kdesktop and kicker to KDE 4, provide it as an alternate KDE 4 desktop shell in KDE:Extra.

This is a good point. I.e. if those people complaining and maintaining KDE3 had spent that time on implementing their "missing" KDE3 features and fixing their "intolerable" bugs in KDE4 it would have saved them a lot of time. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 13:23:30 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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This is a good point. I.e. if those people complaining and maintaining KDE3 had spent that time on implementing their "missing" KDE3 features and fixing their "intolerable" bugs in KDE4 it would have saved them a lot of time. I don't complain about bugs in KDE4. I complain about missing apps. If

On 2011-10-25 12:43, Sven Burmeister wrote: those apps are migrated, I can migrate too.

You cannot run KDE3-apps within KDE4? Usually they only need kdebase3 and not a whole KDE3. And you can extend the above to: had spent their time on porting KDE3 apps they would saved them a lot of time. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/10/2011 20:07, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

Please note that I do not plan to use KDE4 and thus any ported application would look alien on my desktop, which I prefer to avoid.

how many years do you think kde3 will be available (from you or elsewhere)? or do you plan to use kde5? I loved kde3 and I'm not that fond of kde4, but use it anyway even if it's sad, planning to follow the movement is often necessary (that don't mean jumping on all the new trains :-)) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le 25/10/2011 21:07, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

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how many years do you think kde3 will be available (from you or elsewhere)?

Currently there is no upper limit as with any other software out there.

but AFAIK kde3/Trinity is *not* really maintained. I'm not that about security (see my other posts), but at a moment this could become a problem... at least as soon as old hardware fail.

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or do you plan to use kde5?

From what I learned about KDE5 it will include Plasma thus will not be good for me. Judging from the screenshots E17 is quite promising. Once there is no suitable desktop on Linux I will switch to Windows.

did you really try it? I did and for sure prefere any Linux product :-)) Anyway I expect to be able to use KDE3 for years especially given the existence

of Trinity and the fact KDE3 is supported in multiple other projects associated with nearly all major and not-so-major distributions.

how many developpers? kde3 + qt3 seems to me very hudge. probably more than 100 devs on the good old times

I am more confident for KDE3 than for KDE4 which will have to drop a significant part of itself with transition to Qt5 (due the fact the majority of KDE4 apps still use qt3support).

not yet done one can love and use an old car, but when it's about going far from home, a new one is more secure... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

I have KDE2 installed on my computer and from my impression it is less buggy than KDE3. Even KDE3.0 looks more solid than KDE 3.5. So not all activity of developers makes things better.

Heh... I'll have to agree with 3.0 vs 3.5, but still, you cannot keep using unmaintained code indefinitely. If KDE developers decided to move on and introduce buggy stuff, or plainly stuff you don't like, it's either you adapt or move on. To gnome. Or any other desktop. Maintaining kde3 libs alive is all nice, especially if it keeps beloved applications working. But it's only a temporary measure. The more permanent one being porting to the newer libs. And, I have to say even though I like KDE from a user pov, if qt/kde is too much of a moving target, ditch it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 13:37:47 Will Stephenson wrote:

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1) Quality and security. Despite the KDE:KDE3 maintainer's high degree of activity in packaging every KDE 3 app out there and adapting the KDE 3 platform to build on current distributions, it is a mistake to equate this with sufficient maintenance to ensure adequate code quality to include this in our distribution.

At least I am sure the code's quality did not decrease since the last KDE 3 release, don't you think so?

It may not have decreased relative to the state of the universe in 2008, but it is 2011 now and many external things have changed. For a concrete example consider changes to proprietary instant messaging protocols since then - I am quite sure that the kopete codebase is no longer as functional as it was in 2008.

There are no reports currently about any problems with kopete. There was broken Yahoo login, but this has been fixed by Kirill.

In addition, consider packaging quality. You now maintain, alone, 456 packages in KDE:KDE3, many more than were were maintained in 2008 by a team of 5 full timers in the KDE team at SUSE. And you now suggest maintaining GNOME 2. Unless you're Superman, packager effort per package has decreased since 2008, and with it packaging quality.

At least the packaging quality cannot be worse than that of 2008, agree? The KDE3 packages included in Factory either have the same specs as they had in 2008 or cleaned up ones.

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The KDE 3 and Qt 3 codebases are massive, include code in all the worst places to have a vulnerability, have been essentially unmaintained for over 2 years now, and *include many known bugs and vulnerabilities that have only been fixed in the 4 releases*.

Good. Can you provide some links to the vulnerabilities bugreports or something related?

http://www.kde.org/info/security/ is a start. Nobody cares to systematically correlate bugs found and fixed in KDE 4 with KDE 3 any more though. Some maintainers have mass-closed their KDE 3 bugs. The Trinity bugtracker is mainly concerned with integration issues with recent Kubuntu releaeses. I occasionally get a CVE vs KDE 3 code which I fix, but there must be a lot of stuff getting by, simply due to the high degree of commonality of non-Plasma KDE3 and KDE4 code.

Thanks for the link. I will examine the issues, whether they affect KDE3 and whether we already have patches for them or the patch can be beckported. In some cases as I see there is already a ready KDE3 patch. But the list is not that extensive. There are totally 7 post-2008 issues in KDE overall and only 3 or 4 of them can potentially affect KDE3. Note that we already have several CVE post-2008 patches which could be already fixing the issues.

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Assurances that the project is now maintained upstream by the Trinity project are hollow; the Trinity group is only a handful of people, none of whom are the original maintainers or developers of the code,

This is also the case of KDE4. Who of the KDE4 team are the original developers of KDE 1 or KDE 2 ?

coolo, dirk, dfaure, ossi, rich, aseigo just off the top of my head (I contributed odd patches to KDE 2 but nothing major).

Well KDE2 was already out when aseigo joined, I do not know for others, but I heard that aseigo is one of the oldest developers. This is normal: the set of developers changes in any project, some people come in, and some go away.

Even Kurt Granroth is maintaining a KDE 4 version of kbiff. And the current KDE 4 maintainers who are new since 3 or 4 have continuity with the previous maintainers, which the Trinity people do not.

What does it mean? How a man who joined after KDE4 can have continuity from KDE3? Sorry, this is quite difficult to understand.

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and most of their effort is spent on writing a Qt4 compatibility layer and in porting the build system to cmake, not maintenance.

I think it would be impossible to port the code to cmake without maintenance? Am I wrong?

Yes, you are. The code is largely independent of the build system. Occasionally a change of build system throws up things it the code that need fixing; broken inclusion guards, symbol visibility things, but fixing these does not mandate bug fixing. In addition, It would be insanity++ to conflate general bugfixing work and porting to 'TQt' - neither would be done correctly.

Well if you suspect that Trinity people cannot do their work correctly, I can completely understand you. It is actually quite difficult to make such invasive changes. That's why Trinity is considerably less stable than our KDE3, which is again purely normal. Note that KDE4 is also less stable than KDE3, mostly also due to invasive changes.

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In any case, the packages in KDE:KDE3 are based on 3.5.10 and only include some changes from the Trinity project's fork, which is now 3.5.12.

This is true. But we also include changes from other sources. There are many KDE 3 maintenance projects, associated with various distributions.

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openSUSE Factory maintainers made an error of judgement to resume including KDE 3 packages while they demonstrably fulfil the latter 3 of our drop criteria [2], and marketing should not join them in this.

2) The message sent by a retrograde step. Being unique in a bad way is not good for the project.

I fail to see how having more users satisfied is bad. Can you elaborate this?

In answer to the rest of your points, what you suggest is placating a tiny minority of vocal 'Laggards' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations). This does not represent anything that will improve the image of openSUSE elsewhere. The harm caused to the project's image and the risks brought by shipping lots of crufty old code outweigh the benefit of indulging this group, who will neither promote openSUSE in gratitude nor will other groups come to openSUSE because the laggards are happy.

These absolutely unjustified claims about harm and that the people will not bring other people with them. Just some links where people ask for a KDE3 distribution and advised openSUSE: http://www.linux.org.ru/forum/linux-install/6763696?lastmod=1317508879383#co... http://www.linux.org.ru/forum/desktop/6570079?lastmod=1312501041995#comment-...

I have no objection to you continuing to offer KDE:KDE3 as an additional repository for this group.

Finally, if I may suggest a more useful way to please the diehards while making openSUSE unique: just port KDE 3 kdesktop and kicker to KDE 4, provide it as an alternate KDE 4 desktop shell in KDE:Extra.

Well, nothing bad with this idea except there should be people who can and will do so. Given that even elementary functions has been broken in KDE4 and still did not get repaired for years even in the applications that were ported to KDE4, I am quite sure that KDE4 team is either unable or unwilling to do so. On the other hand, as you know, Trinity does quite similar task by making KDE3's desktop compatible with Qt4. Anyway, as you know Qt5 will not include Qt3 support so there can be only two approaches: either use a compatibility layer as the Trinity team does or just rewrite all anew. Also note that Qt4 has significant, still unfixed, regressions compared to Qt3. Note also that there is much of KDE3 software that still was not ported to KDE4/Qt4 in either form. I suspect it's about 80% of all KDE3 software. Just for comparison, KDE:KDE3 has 460 packages (and this is far from total amount of KDE3 software), while KDE:Release:47 has only 250. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 16:53:08 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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Just for comparison, KDE:KDE3 has 460 packages (and this is far from total amount of KDE3 software), while KDE:Release:47 has only 250.

Well, in KDE:KDE3 there is software that should not be there (that ksquirrel thing i helped buildfixing half a year ago for example),

KDE:KDE3 just includes KDE3 and Qt3 software (with software built against kdelibs being the majority).

because newer compilers found such grave bugs that make it pretty clear that nobody remotely security-aware has ever seen that code.

Having more packages is by no way a quality gauge.

Of course.

...unfortunately by helping to buildfix that package I actually helped to increase the crapcounter by one. I'm sorry for that and it will not happen again. (To my defense, I advised that the "fix" was hacky, should not be included and the package should be audited, but that went unheard, of course.)

I agree this package is crappy and even still does not work well. But this is hardly can be applied to all KDE3 software which still not ported to KDE4. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Will Stephenson wrote:

Finally, if I may suggest a more useful way to please the diehards while making openSUSE unique: just port KDE 3 kdesktop and kicker to KDE 4, provide it as an alternate KDE 4 desktop shell in KDE:Extra.

+1 I think all this effort would be better spent finalizing the missing functionality of KDE4 apps. Like kaffeine, I miss kaffeine3, which was complete, a decent media player. Kaffeine4 doesn't even have a way to switch subtitles, which is ridiculous. All this effort in KDE3 would be better spent in trying to fill those huge gaps in KDE4 functionality, IMO. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 19:01:35 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

I remember an early interview or press-release by KDE4 team where they firmly insisted that kicker will never be ported to KDE4. Thus making KDE3 out of KDE4 will probably be against the will of the KDE4 team.

I don't get your argument. The only thing that it shows is that they will not make your kicker port default. But how can they hinder you to offer a plasmoid that mimics kicker? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 22:18:05 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

No, it was not about default settings, otherwise they would talk namely about default settings.

I think you misunderstood. KDE4 devs decide on what they use as default in their code and releases. They cannot prevent you from changing any of that be it default settings or default apps in your distro.

Why there should be exactly plasmoid? Plasma does not use Qt4 style settings, and uses its own style, thus any plasma-based panel would look alien in Qt4-based environment. That said this idea is crippled by design.

Ok, let's put it in a more general phrase since you seem to like nitpicking. How can they hinder you to port kicker to KDE4/Qt4 and offer it to those who want to use it? How can they hinder you to create a Qt style for plasma? In another thread you argue that most people use LCDs thus the defaults should LCDs. Well, most people use plasma within KDE4 and not some niche Qt4 env or whatever you think about using. So their ideas stick to the majority rather than some niche users. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 22:55:19 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

Kicker has been already ported to Qt4 by KDE4 devs and was included in KDE4 alpha release (that alpha was actually more usable than 4.0). It was then dropped.

Possibly someone can resume work on it but he should be warned that Qt3support which supposedly uses KDE4's kicker will not be included in Qt5 so the work is most likely will be obsolete anyway.

Although the same fate will await many other KDE4 applications, because most of them still use Qt3support libraries.

This makes me disbelieve that transition to Qt5 will be smooth: only Qt4-native applications such as Plasma will be easily ported to Qt5 while the majority of other applications (Konqueror, Kwin among them) who still use Qt3support, will possibly be dropped or rewritten from scratch.

Yes – they will all die…

Anyway it would be quite unreasonable to make any artwork for a project that throws other's work so easily as KDE4 does.

Please state facts and not just allegations. Or leave it, I cannot be bothered to answer since you ignore what people who are more competent than you state – and I am not referring to me.

This is a double standard: to stick to the majority in desktop issues where yet another desktop cannot harm anybody and still stick to the minority in LCD issue where this sticking actually makes harm to the majority of LCD owners.

Sorry, but you apply double standards. In one thread you complain that the maintainer sticks to "default is best if it works even for old hardware" and in other threads you complain that niche users are not taken care of by xy. It's not about what I think, it's that you have to decide for yourself. Either it's about the majority or about caring about niches. So for example, if KDE4 effects do not work on old graphics cards or if KDE4 would not work on old hardware you must not complain since that old hardware is the same old hardware you ignore when stating something like: most people use LCDs, so let's ignore the rest. Anyway, I'm done here. You keep offering software that nobody checks anymore and assume that if there are no reports there are no issues. I'll remember your arguments regarding LCDs for other dicussions about old hardware and KDE4 and I will remember that you claim for yourself that nobody should tell you what to do in your free time (no doubt that is right) when you might feel like criticising other devs for not caring about your issues but only doing what they like. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 22:18:05 Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 22:04:42 Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, 25. Oktober 2011, 19:01:35 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

...

I remember an early interview or press-release by KDE4 team where they firmly insisted that kicker will never be ported to KDE4. Thus making KDE3 out of KDE4 will probably be against the will of the KDE4 team.> I don't get your argument. The only thing that it shows is that they will not make your kicker port default.

No, it was not about default settings, otherwise they would talk namely about default settings.

It's Free Software. What the Kicker/KDesktop maintainer(s) said was 'we will never port kicker to KDE 4'. You are free to do pretty much what you like with it, including porting it, maintaining it and giving Felix panel hide buttons with it. I should think that if you are able to port KDE 3 from HAL to udev, a Qt4 port of the main parts of kicker should be easy for you.

...

But how can they hinder you to offer a plasmoid that mimics kicker?

Why there should be exactly plasmoid? Plasma does not use Qt4 style settings, and uses its own style, thus any plasma-based panel would look alien in Qt4-based environment. That said this idea is crippled by design.

It wouldn't have to be a plasmoid. For reference look at Kor Testudo, a QWidget-based alternative KDE 4 shell that Lubos wrote to scratch his own itches: http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Kor+Testudo+Shell?content=126302 packaged in KDE:Unstable:Playground if you want to try it. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 10:47 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 6:37 AM, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

Finally, if I may suggest a more useful way to please the diehards while making openSUSE unique: just port KDE 3 kdesktop and kicker to KDE 4, provide it as an alternate KDE 4 desktop shell in KDE:Extra.

+1

I think all this effort would be better spent finalizing the missing functionality of KDE4 apps.

Like kaffeine, I miss kaffeine3, which was complete, a decent media player. Kaffeine4 doesn't even have a way to switch subtitles, which is ridiculous.

All this effort in KDE3 would be better spent in trying to fill those huge gaps in KDE4 functionality, IMO.

Remember, this is a community and a community project, not a company. Thus, one should be careful about telling people wher they should spend their time and effort. Ilya has decided to maintain KDE3, which I am certain has benefits for some users of openSUSE. Thanks for the effort Ilya. The question we should be discussing here is not how people spent the time they volunteer to the project, rather we should discuss whether KDE3 should be part of the main release and what to say about it in the release notes. IMHO KDE3 should not be part of the main release, for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread, but should be promoted in the release notes in a "Community" section thereof. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:

Remember, this is a community and a community project, not a company. Thus, one should be careful about telling people wher they should spend their time and effort. Ilya has decided to maintain KDE3, which I am certain has benefits for some users of openSUSE.

I know how it works, I do administer an OS project. I also know people need steering to more productive efforts sometimes.

Thanks for the effort Ilya.

But don't get me wrong, all those being able to install kde3 apps not present in kde4 now thanks to Ilya's efforts will be thankful, me included. Still, it would be important to try and close the functionality gap between 3 and 4. Because it's the way of progress.

The question we should be discussing here is not how people spent the time they volunteer to the project, rather we should discuss whether KDE3 should be part of the main release and what to say about it in the release notes.

IMHO KDE3 should not be part of the main release, for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread, but should be promoted in the release notes in a "Community" section thereof.

I agree. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 17:43, schrieb Robert Schweikert:

IMHO KDE3 should not be part of the main release, for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread, but should be promoted in the release notes in a "Community" section thereof.

community section sound good to me. Jos, others, any objections? --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 01:50 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 21:16:22 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

...

IMHO KDE3 should not be part of the main release, for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread, but should be promoted in the release notes in a "Community" section thereof.

community section sound good to me. Jos, others, any objections?

Tell me if I am wrong, but all of openSUSE is community project, that's why I see no reason to separate KDE3 community project from the rest of openSUSE community project.

Yes, all of openSUSE is delivered by the community, correct. However, what is on the media has a bit of a "special" status. As discussed there are a number of us that think KDE3 should not be part of 12.1 as such. Rather we should have KDE:KDE3 as a repo in YaST under the "Community Repositories" list. Meaning adding the KDE3 repo is dead simple. However, what goes into 12.1 is in the end up to Coolo as he is the release manager.

If you place it into "community" section in the release notes, this would look like the rest of the distro is not by community, which is wrong.

You could make the same argument for the "Community Repositories" entry in YaST, thus that's a bit out in left field. If we have a "Community" section in the release notes we can highlight projects such as KDE:KDE3 that are efforts by the community or individuals within the community and that are not part of the release as such. In this section we could also talk about other projects such as the Virtualization:Cloud projects that are not part of 12.1 proper but might be interesting to people looking at openSUSE. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 Oct 2011 20:17:43 Per Jessen wrote:

Not really, but I look forward to further clarification of what is community driven and what isn't. It is clear that some things are not (KDE4

I beg your pardon? Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

...

If we have a "Community" section in the release notes we can highlight projects such as KDE:KDE3 that are efforts by the community or individuals within the community and that are not part of the release as such. In this section we could also talk about other projects such as the Virtualization:Cloud projects that are not part of 12.1 proper but might be interesting to people looking at openSUSE.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Not really, but I look forward to further clarification of what is community driven and what isn't. It is clear that some things are not (KDE4, systemd come to mind), but it's all mostly hidden behind the scene.

Excuse me?

How are KDE4 and systemd not community driven?

Why don't you explain the opposite to me? What were the decision processes involved in the focus-shift towards KDE4? Looking at systemd, it seems quite clear that most of the work is being done by people working for SUSE.

Just because some of the contributors working on these projects also happen to work for SUSE does not mean these changes are "mandated" by SUSE.

Forgive me, but that is difficult for us plain community members to see. (and accept). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 21:00, schrieb Per Jessen:

Why don't you explain the opposite to me? What were the decision processes involved in the focus-shift towards KDE4? Looking at systemd, it seems quite clear that most of the work is being done by people working for SUSE.

I guess the major failure for us all (and also for me, see this thread) is that we differ between SUSE-employees and community members who aren´t working for SUSE (yet?). I guess we have to call *everybody* a part of the community, regardless if she or he works for SUSE or not.

...

...

Just because some of the contributors working on these projects also happen to work for SUSE does not mean these changes are "mandated" by SUSE. Forgive me, but that is difficult for us plain community members to see. (and accept).

-- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 03:21 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Am 25.10.2011 21:00, schrieb Per Jessen:

...

Why don't you explain the opposite to me? What were the decision processes involved in the focus-shift towards KDE4? Looking at systemd, it seems quite clear that most of the work is being done by people working for SUSE.

I guess the major failure for us all (and also for me, see this thread) is that we differ between SUSE-employees and community members who aren´t working for SUSE (yet?).

I guess we have to call *everybody* a part of the community, regardless if she or he works for SUSE or not.

I think the fact that this distinction is often mentioned means it is important. At least to the un-paid community.

Mentioned generally by community members that do not work for SUSE. I do NOT ever recall a message where a community member that also happens to work for SUSE misused the place of employment to imply or exert any type of power/pressure. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 04:09 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Robert Schweikert wrote:

...

On 10/25/2011 03:21 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Am 25.10.2011 21:00, schrieb Per Jessen:

...

Why don't you explain the opposite to me? What were the decision processes involved in the focus-shift towards KDE4? Looking at systemd, it seems quite clear that most of the work is being done by people working for SUSE.

I guess the major failure for us all (and also for me, see this thread) is that we differ between SUSE-employees and community members who aren´t working for SUSE (yet?).

I guess we have to call *everybody* a part of the community, regardless if she or he works for SUSE or not.

I think the fact that this distinction is often mentioned means it is important. At least to the un-paid community.

Mentioned generally by community members that do not work for SUSE.

Yes, therefore obviously important to the very community we're all working hard to build. These are the people who are spending their precious spare time working on openSUSE-related stuff. I don't think it is wise to ignore or dismiss them.

And why do you presume that people working for SUSE do not spend their "precious spare time working on openSUSE-related stuff"? -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 22:09:39 Robert Schweikert wrote:

Yes, all of openSUSE is delivered by the community, correct. However, what is on the media has a bit of a "special" status. As discussed there are a number of us that think KDE3 should not be part of 12.1 as such. Rather we should have KDE:KDE3 as a repo in YaST under the "Community Repositories" list. Meaning adding the KDE3 repo is dead simple.

This is already the case (i.e KDE:KDE3 is in the list). But if you want to remove KDE3 from the repository, I would have to make significant changes to it, namely, restore building with HAL, which was removed from KDE3 at expense of loss of functionality just to meet the openSUSE packaging requirements.

...

If you place it into "community" section in the release notes, this would look like the rest of the distro is not by community, which is wrong.

You could make the same argument for the "Community Repositories" entry in YaST, thus that's a bit out in left field.

If we have a "Community" section in the release notes we can highlight projects such as KDE:KDE3 that are efforts by the community or individuals within the community and that are not part of the release as such. In this section we could also talk about other projects such as the Virtualization:Cloud projects that are not part of 12.1 proper but might be interesting to people looking at openSUSE.

There is nothing bad in having the "community repositories" section in the release notes, which discusses KDE:KDE3 and other community repos. But the original discussion was not about this. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 22:16:25 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

If you place it into "community" section in the release notes, this would look like the rest of the distro is not by community, which is wrong.

Well, openSUSE´s still mainly driven by SUSE, right? It´s more about that *you* support KDE3 in your spare time, you´re don´t getting money for it (or do you?). It´s a hobby for you. Whereas the KDE4 guys get support right from SUSE (Will is working for SUSE, other team members also)

Of course, openSUSE is a community project but until there isn´t a foundation, it´s still a part of SUSE (which is wrong again, It will stay a part with the foundation also because SUSE will stay pay there "project workers".)

Do you think this division of openSUSE projects by the criterion whether the maintainer is paid full-time by SUSE is beneficial? Are the Xfce and LXDE maintainers also paid full-time? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 22:21:36 Sven Burmeister wrote:

I think what he means is that there is a "guarantee" of x people taking care of product y by openSUSE simply because that job position exists. And paying him money openSUSE can demand that he does his job. So if maintainer z quits, he will be replaced and product y is still maintained.

If you one day don't feel like maintaining the KDE3 repo anymore there is a lot less of such a "guarantee", i.e. somebody taking over. Nobody might notice in case you just drop off the project and don't tell anyone. This cannot happen with employees.

Indeed. But how this machinery of paid developers inside an community project works was always a mystery for me. Anyway let me hypotize that the number of paid developers is sufficiently smaller than the number of projects in openSUSE. Does it mean the release notes should say which projects are supported by paid developers and which are not, is another puzzle. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 23:18:43 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Does it mean the release notes should say which projects are supported by paid developers and which are not, is another puzzle.

No it shouldn´t.

The fact is still that KDE3 isn´t a new feature for openSUSE.

I agree. Any mentioning of KDE3 should of course point out that KDE3 was always available for openSUSE - this is quite important.

And I guess the vast majority doesn´t care about "security fixes" (just my personal marketing experiences, as I´m talking for myself, I´m always interested in security fixes. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 26 October 2011 00:01:48 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

I agree. Any mentioning of KDE3 should of course point out that KDE3 was always available for openSUSE - this is quite important.

Do you feel offended when we call it a "bonus extra for desktop nostalgia"?

It sound nice to me, what do you think?

We can call it just "Bonus extra" or simply "Extra components". Please do not call it "nostalgia", maybe "classical desktop experience", but not "nostalgia" please. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 02:12 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 22:16:25 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

...

If you place it into "community" section in the release notes, this would look like the rest of the distro is not by community, which is wrong.

Well, openSUSE´s still mainly driven by SUSE, right? It´s more about that *you* support KDE3 in your spare time, you´re don´t getting money for it (or do you?). It´s a hobby for you. Whereas the KDE4 guys get support right from SUSE (Will is working for SUSE, other team members also)

Of course, openSUSE is a community project but until there isn´t a foundation, it´s still a part of SUSE (which is wrong again, It will stay a part with the foundation also because SUSE will stay pay there "project workers".)

Do you think this division of openSUSE projects by the criterion whether the maintainer is paid full-time by SUSE is beneficial? Are the Xfce and LXDE maintainers also paid full-time?

No they are not. Who gets paid for what is immaterial don't let those that are caught up in incorrect perceptions tell you otherwise. Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 20:22, schrieb Robert Schweikert:

On 10/25/2011 02:16 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Am 25.10.2011 19:50, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

...

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 21:16:22 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

...

...

> IMHO KDE3 should not be part of the main release, for reasons I > mentioned earlier in this thread, but should be promoted in the release > notes in a "Community" section thereof.

community section sound good to me. Jos, others, any objections? Tell me if I am wrong, but all of openSUSE is community project, that's why I see no reason to separate KDE3 community project from the rest of openSUSE community project.

If you place it into "community" section in the release notes, this would look like the rest of the distro is not by community, which is wrong.

Well, openSUSE´s still mainly driven by SUSE, right?

NO !!!!

...

It´s more about that *you* support KDE3 in your spare time, you´re don´t getting money for it (or do you?). It´s a hobby for you. Whereas the KDE4 guys get support right from SUSE (Will is working for SUSE, other team members also)

That doesn't count. Will and others ate SUSE are members of the community just like everyone else. However, what does matter is that the current technology is KDE4 and there is no upstream community that supports KDE3 in the way the Ilya maintains the KDE3 project.

...

Of course, openSUSE is a community project but until there isn´t a foundation, it´s still a part of SUSE (which is wrong again, It will stay a part with the foundation also because SUSE will stay pay there "project workers".)

OK, after a number of years where we have worked really hard to hand control of the project to the community and have opened a lot of tools and processes to the community you still are harping on the "SUSE controls openSUSE" crap. This ticks me off big time.

If SUSE would control openSUSE then openSUSE might not have KDE as the default desktop as this is certainly not in the best interest for SLE, which uses GNOME as the default desktop. Having KDE as a default desktop was a community decision, no control by SUSE was asserted.

Yes, a number of SUSE employees get paid to work on openSUSE as their full time job. However, there are many more SUSE employees that do not get paid to work on openSUSE full time. We do this because we like the project and the community and work on openSUSE mostly in our spare time.

Okay, maybe I expressed myself false. Very false. Of course SUSE isn´t "control" openSUSE. It´s a *community* project. I just meant that what Sven wrote a post ago. Nothing more. Nothing about SUSE´s controlling the project (BTW, "control" sounds to me like there dictating the way we (the community) have to drive the project, which *IS* *NOT* the case.) Sorry, I guess my post was misunderstand due to a failed expression... -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 26.10.2011 08:31, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Stuff that is not in Factory/distro repo should not be mentioned in the release notes IMO. We should not actively encourage Joe Average to install stuff from 3rd party repos. Instead developers are encouraged to submit to Factory. That way we can ensure the packages get reviewed on checkin, ie make sure at least our basic packaging rules are adhered to and packaging checks are run.

100% agreed. Even judging the projects I'm involved in: if it is good enough, I'll submit it to Factory. If it's not, it will stay in the niche repo. Example: stuff in the (badly named) CrossToolchain:avr repo: IIRC it installs totally unacceptable (for general use) udev rules that allow all users in the "users" group access to all (usb?) serial ports. => unacceptable for general usage (think of a worm sending expensive SMS via your mobile phone / 3G card) => makes the AVR stuff "just work" for developers (which is important to them) So this stuff stays in the expert repository, where experts will find it. And they will know what to do with it. So keep the good stuff in FACTORY / openSUSE Release and the freaky crap in the addon repos. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed 26 Oct 2011 21:34:52 NZDT +1300, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Example: stuff in the (badly named) CrossToolchain:avr repo: IIRC it installs totally unacceptable (for general use) udev rules that allow all users in the "users" group access to all (usb?) serial ports.

Instead of raving over badly packaged software that enhances the usability of your distribution considerably (and openSUSE is still rather short on a lot of things that matter to professionals in their respective fields) you could provide more information to help remedy the situation. In http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines e.g. the eclipse plugin heading is empty. Handling of udev rules and cross compilers isn't even mentioned. I have been trying to re-compile avr-gcc and it's been a bit of a process. Can you point me to something please that explains what configure options to use so that it goes under /usr instead of /opt without interfering with the system's gcc on openSUSE?

=> unacceptable for general usage (think of a worm sending expensive SMS via your mobile phone / 3G card)

The rules I see there identify various USB programmers by their IDs and set them mode 666 (I look forward to your project description of how to send SMS with AVR MCU programmers...). Parallel port anything however seems to be set to 666 too, so not so good. For reference, I have a professional SCSI film scanner that SUSE was never once able to handle in any usable way. Can you please point me to openSUSE's guidelines on how to create udev rules in packages for things like MCU programmers?

=> makes the AVR stuff "just work" for developers (which is important to them)

I expect many users of the avr packages are not developers in your sense of the word, but people who need to get their electronics equipment working without spending time on operating systems that is subtracted from time available for their projects. openSUSE could do more to support those users. The naming of pretty much anything in the build service is messy and very confusing. I'm having a hard time determining even what repos are vendor-supplied and which are user-supplied, which isn't too good. Colons add much to the confusion. Is all this repo-naming user generated, or does it need staff access rights (and therefore fixes)? The build service is brilliant but the repos are a mess. Thanks, Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/24/2011 11:09 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 03:14:31 Will Stephenson wrote:

Possibly I have to respond to this. Before proceeding I just want to point out that many factual statements you made are quite doubtful.

...

...

I think you could add info on KDE3 being included in 12.1. Possibly it worth mentioning that this makes asylum for at least a part of users who dislike Gnome 3.

This is my strong objection to mentioning KDE 3 in our 12.1 marketing and release notes. SUSE has a long and undistinguished history of letting noisy tails wag the whole dog, but there is no need for the openSUSE project to continue this.

Martin Gräßlin approaches the problems facing the Trinity fork of KDE 3 in this article at freiesmagazin [1] (German), but to apply his analysis to the KDE:KDE3 packages and our distribution, and for those who don't read German or trust machine translation, my objection comes down to 2 major things.

It is amazing that people make such extensive articles with analysis of a desktop they believe have no future (as the analysis claims and tries to prove). Well, this is possibly a unique case with such extensive attack on an open-source product.

Anyway, I just want to point out that if some software can be proven to "have no future", then the same argument can be applied to any other software whatsoever. For example, one can arguably claim that KDE4 has no future because it will be superseded with KDE5, Gnome 3 will be superseded by Gnome 4 etc.

There is simply no software with provably infinite future in the world. One only can speculate about the possible expected term of actual state for any piece of the software.

You are missing the point. We do not necessarily know what is next, but we do know what is current and we know the projects where the majority of developers spent their time end effort. To make an analogy with cars; there are still people that drive around in a Model T, but the Model T is certainly not the future of the automobile. Generally I would say the future of the car is not know, electric, hybrid, will cars fly? Who knows. What we do know is that the current car technology includes AC, heat, ABS, air bags.... and no matter how much people love their Model T, you will just not find those features, safety and convenience in a car that's 100 years old. That said, I think that you are putting in the effort to maintain KDE3 for those who are still interested in using it is commendable. However, advertising it at the expense of other more current technology is, IMHO, not a good idea. I also agree with those that say KDE3 should not be part of the main distribution. The main distribution of openSUSE should represent current technology, if not we might as well still ship a 2.2 kernel (to make an extreme point). The release notes should focus on the new release, however, we also should have a section that points out the community work that is not part of the release, this is where KDE3 should be mentioned. Later, Robert -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU SUSE-IBM Software Integration Center LINUX Tech Lead rjschwei@suse.com rschweik@ca.ibm.com 781-464-8147 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 15:32:26 Robert Schweikert wrote:

That said, I think that you are putting in the effort to maintain KDE3 for those who are still interested in using it is commendable. However, advertising it at the expense of other more current technology is, IMHO, not a good idea.

Why at expanse? How it can damage other products? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 10/25/2011 06:02 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Tuesday 25 October 2011 03:14:31 Will Stephenson wrote:

...

This is my strong objection to mentioning KDE 3 in our 12.1 marketing and release notes. SUSE has a long and undistinguished history of letting noisy tails wag the whole dog, but there is no need for the openSUSE project to continue this.

Martin Gräßlin approaches the problems facing the Trinity fork of KDE 3 in this article at freiesmagazin [1] (German), but to apply his analysis to the KDE:KDE3 packages and our distribution, and for those who don't read German or trust machine translation, my objection comes down to 2 major things.

And I read the article finally in machine translation. The author just criticizes Trinity for instability caused by the translation to tqtinterface and advises to use Debian Lenny with the original KDE 3.5.10 and security fixes.

I can agree with the author on this issue: Trinity is indeed quite unstable now that's why I would not recommend including the current Trinity release in openSUSE.

In this blog a user describes that he installed himself openSUSE just to test how it works with KDE3, and found it working very well. He admits that Debian's Trinity is less stable, but says he is more accustomed with Debian:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fstav-2.livejournal.com%2F24497.html

He proposed himself as a translator to Russian and Esperanto to the Trinity team.

My only concern is why when I want to do an update kdepim3 try to install on a 12.1 ? To protect myself against a dead horse, or aggravated necrophilia I've add two lock kdepim3 & kdelibs3 Can you add this to the release note too, Dear end-users if you live with actual released software and want to protect yourself from getting wrong deps and unmaintained code add lock to those two packages -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Ambassador GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 25.10.2011 17:03, schrieb Lars Müller:

Unfortunately non of our team has time to add information regarding the Samba code which will be part of openSUSE 12.1. It will be verion 3.6.1 as soon as the build team accepts it.

http://www.samba.org/samba/news/releases/3.6.0.html provides a nice overview what we already got with the initial 3.6 release.

The head ofhttp://www.samba.org/samba/history/samba-3.6.1.html provides more details regarding the actual 3.6.1 release.

I´ve added Samba 3.6.1 to the pad. Please let us know if there happen something otherwise. --kdl -- -o) Kim Leyendecker /\\ openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE _\_v http://www.opensuse.org - Linux for open minds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org