On Monday, August 29, 2011 10:11:56 Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 10:10:25AM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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On Monday, August 29, 2011 09:34:24 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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Hi,

Please revert --no-copy-dt-needed-default, the fallout is too large.

failed/head-ppc$ grep -l "is defined in DSO" *|wc -l 77

Not even cairo or openssh builds.

We have to fix it eventually. The question is whether it gets done now or we should wait for 12.2.

So, let's first ask how helps fixing the failing 87 (on x86-64) packages,

You are forgetting that this is the first wave, all their indirect dependencies will probably also break. given "cairo", it will probably all of GNOME.

I checked the head project where everything gets rebuild. Still, with a newly build cairo, other packages might fail as well that work with current cairo, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 08/29/2011 10:10 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Monday, August 29, 2011 09:34:24 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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Hi,

Please revert --no-copy-dt-needed-default, the fallout is too large.

failed/head-ppc$ grep -l "is defined in DSO" *|wc -l 77

Not even cairo or openssh builds.

We have to fix it eventually. The question is whether it gets done now or we should wait for 12.2.

So, let's first ask how helps fixing the failing 87 (on x86-64) packages,

Andreas

P.S. here's a list of packages on x86-64:

digikam

I fixed this last week ;) Regards. -- İsmail Dönmez - openSUSE Booster SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 29. August 2011 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

Am Montag, 29. August 2011 schrieb Richard Guenther:

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On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Marcus Meissner wrote:

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Hi,

Please revert --no-copy-dt-needed-default, the fallout is too large.

failed/head-ppc$ grep -l "is defined in DSO" *|wc -l 77

Not even cairo or openssh builds.

87 fails (sofar) in head-x86_64, 88 in i586.

SR 80004.

I'm confused. I thought this was changed after upstream changed defaults. I would rather go with fixing it if new binutils will have this default anyway.

After a brief talk with Richard, I rather go with fixing the fallout - it doesn't have to be NOW. All programs that already link against all needed libraries will work no matter in what state cairo is. And fixing the packages is pretty much trival. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 29 August 2011 12:11:24 Richard Guenther wrote:

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Not even cairo or openssh builds.

87 fails (sofar) in head-x86_64, 88 in i586.

49 fails in KDE:KDE3 (2 of them due to dependency). I fixed some by adding export CXXFLAGS="$CXXFLAGS -Wl,--add-needed" but this does not work for many. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 29/08/11 06:00, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Monday 29 August 2011 12:11:24 Richard Guenther wrote:

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Not even cairo or openssh builds.

87 fails (sofar) in head-x86_64, 88 in i586.

49 fails in KDE:KDE3 (2 of them due to dependency). I fixed some by adding

export CXXFLAGS="$CXXFLAGS -Wl,--add-needed"

That is not a fix, -Wl,--add-needed are linker flags .. at least use them in LDFLAGS ;) another quick and dirty way would be feeding the LIBS variable. Stopping beating the KDE3 dead horse is also a good idea. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Wed, 31 Aug 2011 01:09:39 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

To fix each package, I have to find which library is missing, then add it to somewhere in the spec, then wait for re4build and see which else library it missing and so on.

Try "osc build --help" Once the build fails, you can chroot into the buildroot, change options, run configure and make manually in order to not rebuild everything from scratch.

And what desktop to use then?

A maintained one? There are lots to choose from which are actively maintained to keep building / working with current toolchains / infrastructure. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi Ilya, Am Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:19:02 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

On Wednesday 31 August 2011 10:26:38 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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Once the build fails, you can chroot into the buildroot, change options, run configure and make manually in order to not rebuild everything from scratch.

Oh in that case I would need even more steps: first, clone the package on my local machine, then chroot etc.

So you do packaging without having the packages checked out locally and test-building them before checkin? Well, in that case probably there's no good advice anyone could give you that would help. Whenever I do packaging workshops, I always teach people how to verify their build locally before committing it to the buildservice. Anything else is usually (except for a few very special packages) just a recipe to cause yourself a lot of pain.

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And what desktop to use then?

A maintained one? There are lots to choose from which are actively maintained to keep building / working with current toolchains / infrastructure.

Which one? exactly?

Choose one from http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Latest_Free_Desktops for example. The list is from 11.4 but it applies to FACTORY as well. From the outside, it looks interesting to watch you trying to ride a dead horse, but IMVHO those efforts are in vain and could be spent more useful by improving one of the existing maintained alternatives so that it gets the features you are missing and that were in KDE3. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 08/31/2011 10:20 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

In KDE4 they still have broken file manager,

How so? -- İsmail Dönmez - openSUSE Booster SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 08/31/2011 10:26 AM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Wednesday 31 August 2011 12:21:32 Ismail Donmez wrote:

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In KDE4 they still have broken file manager,

How so?

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245874

Ok next time you better mention spatial mode being not implemented instead of saying "its broken" :) -- İsmail Dönmez - openSUSE Booster SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi Ilya, Am Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:20:31 +0400 schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

On Wednesday 31 August 2011 11:59:50 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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So you do packaging without having the packages checked out locally and test-building them before checkin?

In that case my home computer would be doing building all the time. KDE:KDE3 gets fully built good if 2 or 3 times a month.

Are you changing all the packages all the time? If not, your computer does not need to rebuild anything. But if you changed something in a package, test-building *just this package* before submitting it is IMVHO a good idea, as the turnaround time is usually much faster than what the buildservice provides.

Why? Spending all my computer's power on building is good?

Not necessary, see above.

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Choose one from http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Latest_Free_Desktops for example. The list is from 11.4 but it applies to FACTORY as well.

That page lists only KDE4, Gnome2, Gnome3 and Xfce.

and LXDE.

Gnome2 will not be available in 12.1

In KDE4 they still have broken file manager, and in Xfce there is no normal file manager at all.

Yes, there is Thunar for XFCE. And Krusader from KDE4 works pretty well for me.

First, I am not a programmer to improve something.

Second, it is unreasonable to improve something for a desktop which creators do not respect the work of other programmers and easily throw it away.

Third, If someone would like to improve KDE4 or Gnome 3 he would have to revert

I would not dare trying to work with KDE4 or GNOME3, but we are lucky that there are other choices. I think I quite understand where you are coming from. I was using KDE for quite some time, and even made the switch to KDE4. Finally, I was ditching KDE4 for GNOME (2.2x at the time), because there was always something broken, be it NetworkManager, power management, bluetooth or whatever, which simply just worked when using the GNOME parts (nm-applet, bluettooth-applet, gnome-power-manager). Then came GNOME3 and the first import into FACTORY was so broken, that it was unbearable. Not wanting to add random repos, I switched to XFCE which is, IMVHO "GNOME done right and without assuming users are stupid". I did not have much to complain since. Even the infamous GTK filepicker dialog evolved during the last 5 years into something usable, not worse than the QT counterparts. And QT3 with it's plain broken UTF8 support since >5 years is simply not a valid option nowadays, and nobody is going to fix this anymore (try using a textmode mailer, aka mutt, in KDE3 konsole and view some of that chinese spam. Just as an example that it's broken. Even when I was using KDE3 and KDE4 was just an alpha version on the horizon, I needed to use KDE4 konsole in order to get an remotely usable terminal.) And even though I liked KDE3, there is simply no economically feasible way of keeping it alive. So as I already wrote. It's interesting to watch you trying to ride that dead horse, but that's it. Good luck -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 31 August 2011 13:11:02 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

And QT3 with it's plain broken UTF8 support since >5 years is simply not a valid option nowadays, and nobody is going to fix this anymore (try using a textmode mailer, aka mutt, in KDE3 konsole and view some of that chinese spam.

I am not usually interested in Chinese spam, but Russian works well in Mutt started from KDE3's console. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 31. August 2011, 11:11:02 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

Hi Ilya,

Am Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:20:31 +0400

schrieb Ilya Chernykh :

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On Wednesday 31 August 2011 11:59:50 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

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So you do packaging without having the packages checked out locally and test-building them before checkin?

In that case my home computer would be doing building all the time. KDE:KDE3 gets fully built good if 2 or 3 times a month.

Are you changing all the packages all the time?

If not, your computer does not need to rebuild anything.

But if you changed something in a package, test-building *just this package* before submitting it is IMVHO a good idea, as the turnaround time is usually much faster than what the buildservice provides.

...

Why? Spending all my computer's power on building is good?

Not necessary, see above.

...

...

Choose one from http://en.opensuse.org/Product_highlights#Latest_Free_Desktops for example. The list is from 11.4 but it applies to FACTORY as well.

That page lists only KDE4, Gnome2, Gnome3 and Xfce.

and LXDE.

...

Gnome2 will not be available in 12.1

In KDE4 they still have broken file manager, and in Xfce there is no normal file manager at all.

Yes, there is Thunar for XFCE. And Krusader from KDE4 works pretty well for me.

...

First, I am not a programmer to improve something.

Second, it is unreasonable to improve something for a desktop which creators do not respect the work of other programmers and easily throw it away.

Third, If someone would like to improve KDE4 or Gnome 3 he would have to revert

I would not dare trying to work with KDE4 or GNOME3, but we are lucky that there are other choices.

I think I quite understand where you are coming from. I was using KDE for quite some time, and even made the switch to KDE4. Finally, I was ditching KDE4 for GNOME (2.2x at the time), because there was always something broken, be it NetworkManager, power management, bluetooth or whatever, which simply just worked when using the GNOME parts (nm-applet, bluettooth-applet, gnome-power-manager).

It's improved a lot, but not completely. At least not in my real hardware configuration. The play-and-sing-along vm doesn't deal with wifi, bridges and some other things and behaves more nicely. I'll do a clean hardware install with fresh home and etc by the time the first updates for 12.1 roll in. My contribution for 12.1 is more server-side.

And even though I liked KDE3, there is simply no economically feasible way of keeping it alive. So as I already wrote. It's interesting to watch you trying to ride that dead horse, but that's it.

I was an early adopter of KDE4 and believe me, nobody knows the trouble I've seen. Early KDE 4 lacked a lot justworkability and stayrunningness. Now it lacks a little. Still, to me, (3 at its time and now 4), is the only real desktop around. I do not consider a KDE 3 (fork) any better if it isn't locally built and tested by the packager. I also do not believe it will stay well-integrated with current systemd/nohal/feature-evolved base systems. I also liked DR DOS/Novell DOS (later to become Caldera OpenDOS) much better than the MS product but at some point in time this became pointless. So is this KDE3 thing. So please, let things evolve, adapt to changes that will come anyway or have come, make --no-copy-dt-needed-default and other sane but painful upgrades work on most software. Don't maintain GEM [1] just for the sake of it and because some time now a few years ago, somebody did some questionable decisions which most of the crowd followed anyway. [1] http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev -- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org