On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

could we know why RealPlayer was dropped from openSUSE? Are there legal reasons behind this, or it is just an arbitrary decision to reduce the number of packages?

Would have to pay to distribute newer versions of RealPlayer, that is, of course, a no go.

Not a fan of realplayer, but isn't the helix player ok to redistribute? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 31 October 2008 12:53:06 pm Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

Hello,

could we know why RealPlayer was dropped from openSUSE? Are there legal reasons behind this, or it is just an arbitrary decision to reduce the number of packages?

Would have to pay to distribute newer versions of RealPlayer, that is, of course, a no go.

I don't think there is a cost: 2. What are the requirements for distributing the RealPlayer or RealJukebox on my CD? Complete the on-line registration form, agree to the terms in the license agreement and submit your registration. Once your registration is approved you will be given the location where you can download a RealPlayer/RealJukebox specifically for distribution. Granting of a license to distribute the RealPlayer/RealJukebox is subject to RealNetworks' approval for quality assurance and appropriateness of material and software bundle. Granting of a license is also subject to all United States laws and trade policies. 3. How much does it cost to distribute the RealPlayer/RealJukebox on my CD? Distributing the RealPlayer is free for Windows, Mac and available Unix platforms. That's from: http://www.real.com/licensing/faq.html But you do have to sign up for a license to distribute. On another note, I am glad Novell dropped them, but I also think they should have mentioned it on news.opensuse.org, on the mailing list or somewhere, also giving the reason why. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi Christian, no the reasons is not the cost: http://www.benkevan.com/blog/realplayer-dropped-from-opensuse-heres-why/#com... They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho. Regards, Alberto Il giorno ven, 31/10/2008 alle 16.53 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez ha scritto:

Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

Hello,

could we know why RealPlayer was dropped from openSUSE? Are there legal reasons behind this, or it is just an arbitrary decision to reduce the number of packages?

Would have to pay to distribute newer versions of RealPlayer, that is, of course, a no go.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 05:46:58PM -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Hi Christian,

no the reasons is not the cost:

http://www.benkevan.com/blog/realplayer-dropped-from-opensuse-heres-why/#com...

They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho.

You consider us stupid? Thanks, time to unsubscribe... Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 31. Oktober 2008 16:48:35 schrieb Marcus Meissner:

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 05:46:58PM -0500, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

...

Hi Christian,

no the reasons is not the cost:

http://www.benkevan.com/blog/realplayer-dropped-from-opensuse-heres -why/#comment-7436

They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho.

You consider us stupid?

Thanks, time to unsubscribe...

Ciao, Marcus

Marcus, Of course you are free to unsubscribe from this mailinglist. But I am not sure if it would send the right signal, considering that you are mailing from a SUSE email account. -- Happy Halloween! Andreas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:26 PM, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

Frankly I don't understand your reaction. It seems to me I put some "if" in the sentence, and I was _asking_. If there is an associate cost with the distribution, just say that. It is not written on the Real site. I simply summed up what appear to be the facts, supported by Real distribution guidelines.

The problem is that the win codecs were added, which requires a cost. Now, does that mean that you have to have the codecs to get the player? I dunno. Quite honestly, I have never found realplayer to be a very useful program. I prefer MPlayer. Just my humble opinion.

Of course this discussion could have been avoided with a simple notice when the player was dropped. We should be a community, after all.

I grant that. However, like with all things(especially the KDE stuff), shouldn't we try to improve instead of berating? You've found out that something was dropped without a reasonable amount of notice. Let's bring this to the attention of the community so that we can try to keep something like this from happening again. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag 01 November 2008 schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:

Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho.

there are associated costs on **distributing** realplayer with Windows media support.. sorry, I won't comment on legal issues.. that's a topic for lawyers.. ;-)

That's right. And it's the only reason. Just because real says it's free, doesn't mean it has no costs. Just none you pay to real. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 1. November 2008 07:16:52 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

Am Samstag 01 November 2008 schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:

...

Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho.

there are associated costs on **distributing** realplayer with Windows media support.. sorry, I won't comment on legal issues.. that's a topic for lawyers.. ;-)

That's right. And it's the only reason. Just because real says it's free, doesn't mean it has no costs. Just none you pay to real.

Thanx for this clear and short explanation This discussion had many blabla! Why there wasn't given this explanation in one short answer instead of supposes in the other thread trees? If I do not know something really i do not post anything! Daniel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, Stephan Kulow schrieb:

Dropping packages (from distro and from DVD) is our daily business. RealPlayer might be different - but I have no idea in what way.

RealPlayer is not really different but it shows once again that the process of dropping packages from the distribution is not transparent enough to the community. Usually package drops are not really announced in public and one has to stumble about it and then starts the discussion about the why. I know that the reasons for dropping packages are recorded internally but why isn't that public accessible data? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 10:44:32AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag 01 November 2008 schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:

...

Hi,

Stephan Kulow schrieb:

...

Dropping packages (from distro and from DVD) is our daily business. RealPlayer might be different - but I have no idea in what way.

RealPlayer is not really different but it shows once again that the process of dropping packages from the distribution is not transparent enough to the community. Usually package drops are not really announced in public and one has to stumble about it and then starts the discussion about the why. I know that the reasons for dropping packages are recorded internally but why isn't that public accessible data?

Moving that package database to the outside is basically the only missing piece for the "distribution building in the open" project. It's been worked on, but currently there are more important issues ;(

But here is the list of packages that were on the 11.0 DVD and that aren't on the 11.1-B4 DVD (or the nonoss addon). Perhaps you find some more interesting, or even bugs. But note that we dropped quite some for space reasons or just due to renames.

Greetings, Stephan

java-1_6_0-sun java-1_6_0-sun-alsa java-1_6_0-sun-devel java-1_6_0-sun-jdbc java-1_6_0-sun-plugin

Quite a number of Java programs rely on Java (1.)6 and SUN extensions, which are not available in openjdk (java-1_6_0-openjdk*) due to 3rd party software, not relicensed by SUN for obvious reasons. Any chance to make these Java packages also available for openSUSE 11.1? Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Nov 01, 2008 at 11:29:27AM +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag 01 November 2008 schrieb Stefan Dirsch:

...

...

java-1_6_0-sun java-1_6_0-sun-alsa java-1_6_0-sun-devel java-1_6_0-sun-jdbc java-1_6_0-sun-plugin

Quite a number of Java programs rely on Java (1.)6 and SUN extensions, which are not available in openjdk (java-1_6_0-openjdk*) due to 3rd party software, not relicensed by SUN for obvious reasons. Any chance to make these Java packages also available for openSUSE 11.1?

As it's in openSUSE:Factory:NonFree, it's most likely just an oversight that it's not on the non-oss addon. Just file a bug.

done. Bug #440824 Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 01 November 2008 01:16:52 am Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag 01 November 2008 schrieb Cristian Rodríguez:

...

Alberto Passalacqua escribió:

...

They simply didn't ask for permission, it seems. If that's true, it's not a good move imho.

there are associated costs on **distributing** realplayer with Windows media support.. sorry, I won't comment on legal issues.. that's a topic for lawyers.. ;-)

That's right. And it's the only reason. Just because real says it's free, doesn't mean it has no costs. Just none you pay to real.

OK. So, what was the problem. Real Player is not high on my list on any platform, and it will take some time until I can notice that it is missing, but those that do, should be treated as individuals that can understand explanation. If you can't comment on legal stuff, is there any of lawyers that can do that. It is not first time that legal problems jump in the mix adversely affecting performance of distribution without remedy for end users. I don't consider software that is legal in some jurisdictions as a good solution. Fluendo way of individual license purchase and software installation is advancement, but still somewhat complicated comparing to installation of whole distribution, and more important there is no guarantee that shiny new codecs will actually work. On the other side codecs are minor quantity of software that cost is set disproportionally high, compared to boxed version of openSUSE. I skipped Linuxant drivers just because that small piece of code was priced $20.- . How much should cost whole distro with thousands of drivers and applications? The same problem I see with codecs. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hello, on Samstag, 1. November 2008, Stephan Kulow wrote:

But here is the list of packages that were on the 11.0 DVD and that aren't on the 11.1-B4 DVD (or the nonoss addon). Perhaps you find some more interesting, or even bugs. But note that we dropped quite some for space reasons or just due to renames.

I just wonder about some packages like - apache2-mod_php5 - php5 - php5-mysql (and other php5-*) These packages exist in Factory, but are also on your list. Re-reading your mail, it sounds like these packages won't be on the DVD (which one? Download edition? Boxed edition?) anymore. Well, I'll miss php5 for sure - but as long as I can download it, it isn't a real problem for me. Do you have a list of packages that were "really" dropped (as in "no longer available in the oss and non-oss repo")? Regards, Christian Boltz --

...

Currently you get a SUSE Linux box for 60 bugs with 1 DVD, 5 CDs, Although there are actually more bugs available for SUSE LINUX 10.0, as you can easily see at bugzilla So I have to pay 60 bugs to get 851 bugs. Sounds like a really good deal. :) [Martin Sommer and > Robert Schiele in opensuse] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2008/11/1 Kevin Dupuy :

Why was agfa-fonts dropped?

Without this package, the font Sans used by the desktops (at least GNOME) for all text in windows, icons, menus, etc. looks really horrible (think Ubuntu).

In previous versions, when installing from the DVD this package would be installed by default.

This one was reported: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-09/msg00538.html Apparently Liberation Fonts (http://www.press.redhat.com/2007/05/09/liberation-fonts/) are seen like a good enough open alternative (I have not even tested them, but I believe openSUSE). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

(Sent as reply to Willie by accident...resending)  Gotta admit, "TrackMyHead" would definitely grab the attention of anyone window-shopping their repositories. "Hmm... what the heck is that?" :-) Bryen On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 19:13 -0500, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 19:30 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

This one was reported: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-09/msg00538.html Apparently Liberation Fonts (http://www.press.redhat.com/2007/05/09/liberation-fonts/) are seen like a good enough open alternative (I have not even tested them, but I believe openSUSE).

I've just downloaded and tested them out, and they're less than adaquate as a replacement for the agfa-font's Sans as a font for the interface. In particular to me, the spacing seems off (too close together) and the bold font (as used on the window title bar) doesn't look right.

Is there anyway to bring back agfa-fonts at least until the Liberation Sans are good enough as a drop-in replacement? -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: Meet Bob Barr - Libertarian for President - http://www.BobBarr2008.com/

-- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 19:30 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

This one was reported: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-09/msg00538.html

Apparently this discussion took place while I was still trying to wrangle openSUSE onto my new laptop and I missed it, but could this explain why I had to go and manually install Flash and MP3 support, even though I installed Beta 2 from the DVD (the last DVD I installed from, I've done Factory since then)? If so, I'm not impressed that we would rather make it *more* difficult for new users to use the music and websites they're used to. And if it's a bug or for some other reason, then let's get it fixed. -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: Meet Bob Barr - Libertarian for President - http://www.BobBarr2008.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Christian Boltz escribió:

Re-reading your mail, it sounds like these packages won't be on the DVD (which one? Download edition? Boxed edition?) anymore.

I guess in the download DVD.

Well, I'll miss php5 for sure - but as long as I can download it, it isn't a real problem for me.

at the time of the release, you will most likely want PHP5 from YOU ;-) because it is very likely that 5.2.7 wont make on the final DVD. I initially wanted to include 5.3 but looking at the progress and all the politics around this new release,**sigh** it is going to take some more time... -- "Good, Fast, Cheap: Pick any two (you can't have all three)." Cristian Rodríguez R. Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Research & Development http://www.opensuse.org/

Am Sonntag 02 November 2008 schrieb Kevin Dupuy:

On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 02:06 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2008/11/2 Kevin Dupuy :

...

On Sat, 2008-11-01 at 19:30 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

This one was reported: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-09/msg00538.html Apparently Liberation Fonts (http://www.press.redhat.com/2007/05/09/liberation-fonts/) are seen like a good enough open alternative (I have not even tested them, but I believe openSUSE).

I've just downloaded and tested them out, and they're less than adaquate as a replacement for the agfa-font's Sans as a font for the interface. In particular to me, the spacing seems off (too close together) and the bold font (as used on the window title bar) doesn't look right.

Is there anyway to bring back agfa-fonts at least until the Liberation Sans are good enough as a drop-in replacement?

Looking at the liberation-fonts package from openSUSE:Factory OBS project I see the package uses version 0.1. Looking at https://fedorahosted.org/releases/l/i/liberation-fonts/ seems the latest stable version is 1.04... I know *nothing* about fonts, but if the 0.1 is the first version from the RedHat announcement they lack any hinting information.

If there is really a problem (now OBS has the latest versions, true?) I would also look at /etc/fonts/suse-post-user.conf from fontconfig package. This file disables antialias and autohinting for a list of know good fonts... *perhaps* liberation fonts should be added (perhaps they are already here, I'm not using Factory).

I could open a bug report, but I would hit against the version freeze. I suppose coolo is the one that could authorize an exception, but someone with a better understanding of the situation should look at it first.

The version of Liberation Fonts in Factory right now is liberation-fonts-0.1-122.3. Hmm, this looks like something that should not be. Please file a bug.

Unfortunately, adding Liberation Sans to suse-post-user.conf'slist of autohinting and antialiasing-disabled fonts does nothing to help, at least to my eyes.

Even if Liberation Fonts are going to be used, there are still two issues: (please note I use GNOME, so this is a GNOME-centric list). 1. Liberation fonts are not installed by default from the DVD as agfa-fonts were. This looks like a bug too ;(

2. Instead of replacing the bad-looking default Sans, Liberation adds it's own Liberation Sans font. The downside to this is that GNOME & GDM are set by default to use Sans, so the better Liberation font is not chosen by default. What does "fc-match sans" say?

I'd open a bug report against the fact that Liberation Sans isn't up to par with agfa-font Sans yet, and shouldn't be considered as a replacement, if we can determine that that's what's needed.

agfa-fonts will be removed in any case (the decision to go with a clear DVD EULA is set and agfa-fonts license does not allow ftp distribution). The question is only about what the default should be. Please note that the 11.0 live cds and ftp installations didn't have agfa-fonts either and I'm not aware of any complaints. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2008-11-02 at 09:28 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Sonntag 02 November 2008 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

...

The version of Liberation Fonts in Factory right now is liberation-fonts-0.1-122.3.

Hmm, this looks like something that should not be. Please file a bug. In the time being, check out home:/thomas-schraitle/openSUSE_Factory/noarch/liberation-fonts-1.04-5.30.noarch.rpm

Factory repo contains version 0.1-122.3, and it is not installed by default. Agfa fonts are not available in the repo. I wonder what gnome uses by default on factory? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkNiQ8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XK4QCeLEPh46IekP+MDFrrTI0mfAu3 PmkAn3wreXZX9LNojwr7mYcVUO/KH3cr =GIUO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/11/02 12:07 (GMT+0100) Stephan Kulow composed:

Am Sonntag 02 November 2008 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

I wonder what gnome uses by default on factory?

dejavu is our default, but I use liberation-fonts 1.04 now and I have to say the difference to the arial webfont I used before is not noticable to my font blind eyes :)

Excerpt from /etc/fonts/suse-post-user.conf: <alias> <family>sans-serif</family> <prefer> <family>Arial</family> <family>Albany AMT</family> <family>Verdana</family> <family>DejaVu Sans</family> <family>Liberation Sans</family> <family>SUSE Sans</family> <family>Bitstream Vera Sans</family> <family>Nimbus Sans L</family> <family>Luxi Sans</family> Considering that list starts with two metric equivalents of each other that more closely match Liberation, I'd say Liberation needs to get moved above the larger Verdana & DejaVu, if the Liberation in the repo gets updated to latest version. Also, it makes no sense that anything falls in between DejaVu & Vera, since there's probably no closer metric match on the planet. Maybe Mike Fabian knows some reason. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2008-11-02 at 14:14 -0600, Kevin Dupuy wrote:

...

...

Hmm, this looks like something that should not be. Please file a bug. In the time being, check out home:/thomas-schraitle/openSUSE_Factory/noarch/liberation-fonts-1.04-5.30.noarch.rpm

I just did, and they don't look much different, at least the Liberation Sans doesn't. Overall, I think most people could live with them. They don't look as professional as agfa-fonts Sans does, which is a downer, but if we must go with them they probably won't be that much of a problem.

If you bought some of the boxed versions, you can find the agfa-fonts there. I suppose it is legal to reinstall them? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkOBS4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WY6gCghUfopMSYtatLE6nKzWvIFRpl TGgAoIDGIDsPhDk8R7bP+/SzyrNpTP0P =avSh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 09:28 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Sonntag 02 November 2008 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

...

The version of Liberation Fonts in Factory right now is liberation-fonts-0.1-122.3.

Hmm, this looks like something that should not be. Please file a bug. In the time being, check out home:/thomas-schraitle/openSUSE_Factory/noarch/liberation-fonts-1.04-5.30.noarch.rpm

I just did, and they don't look much different, at least the Liberation Sans doesn't. Overall, I think most people could live with them. They don't look as professional as agfa-fonts Sans does, which is a downer, but if we must go with them they probably won't be that much of a problem. -- Kevin "Yeaux" Dupuy - openSUSE Member Public Mail: Meet Bob Barr - Libertarian for President - http://www.BobBarr2008.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2008/11/02 14:14 (GMT-0600) Kevin Dupuy composed:

On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 09:28 +0100, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

In the time being, check out home:/thomas-schraitle/openSUSE_Factory/noarch/liberation-fonts-1.04-5.30.noarch.rpm

I just did, and they don't look much different, at least the Liberation Sans doesn't. Overall, I think most people could live with them. They don't look as professional as agfa-fonts Sans does, which is a downer, but if we must go with them they probably won't be that much of a problem.

To fully assess differences requires a lot more inspection than you might to think. Similarity varies as size, hinting, anti-alias & byte code interplay is varied, added or removed. Take a look at http://fm.no-ip.com/auth/Font/fonts-comps-amtlibms.html & http://fm.no-ip.com/auth/Font/fonts-face-samples-libvar.html while varying the contents of ~.fonts.conf. Font tastes vary considerably. I use only KDE. The results I like best happen when that file contains only the following: <?xml version="1.0"?> <!DOCTYPE fontconfig SYSTEM "fonts.dtd"> <fontconfig> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit name="autohint" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> </fontconfig> Note that I use high resolution, with browser default font size set to 24px. -- "Love is not easily angered. Love does not demand its own way." 1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday, 2008-11-02 at 17:22 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

If you can't comment on legal stuff,

We _may_ be able to, as a _personal_ opinion on the topic but techies generally lack of legal training and when we do so, our mailing list post will appear almost always quoted grossly out of context at some of the opensource "gossip & conspiracy theories" sites out there, that makes us no favor ;-)

...

is there any of lawyers that can do that.

Lawyers do so, but usually only in a client/attorney relationship, that's the way it works.

Which means that Novell needs a speak-person to explain these things to the community in a language that we can understand, and without stepping on some one else's toes. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkkOTQAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Uz6gCeJxss320O2rKM5iYe1vS53C3c JXkAnRiP6RNh6f1xdCXk64doEtehmFgz =JDBP -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Dave Plater wrote:

I banned Real from my system, way back when, when I saw what it did to and with my windows 98se system.

Many of us in England would like to, but our (generally) great BBC has chosen to supply its huge volume of 'listen again' and live feeds only in Real and/or MS formats. To access them from a browser is just too painful unless via the RealPlayer mozilla plug-in - the only reason I have it installed. As someone else on this thread noted, at least the Linux version is rather less invasive than that for MS. My only issue with dropping it is how we present this to a new user when they try to follow a link like these BBC ones - if we can catch it and suggest that they head over to Real's site to get and install the RPM I'm not too unhappy. Just a bald error message is *NOT* good enough for something like this. Further, and maybe veering OT, I know that other players (e.g. Kaffeine) can utilise the codecs, but it's a real fiddle to acquire the relevant URL to hand to them from e.g. the BBC 'listen again' pages. Unless anyone knows something I don't? BTW - the Kaffeine plug-in breaks the RealPlayer one if both are installed! -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard (MQ) wrote:

Dave Plater wrote:

...

I banned Real from my system, way back when, when I saw what it did to and with my windows 98se system.

Many of us in England would like to, but our (generally) great BBC has chosen to supply its huge volume of 'listen again' and live feeds only in Real and/or MS formats. To access them from a browser is just too painful unless via the RealPlayer mozilla plug-in - the only reason I have it installed. As someone else on this thread noted, at least the Linux version is rather less invasive than that for MS.

My only issue with dropping it is how we present this to a new user when they try to follow a link like these BBC ones - if we can catch it and suggest that they head over to Real's site to get and install the RPM I'm not too unhappy. Just a bald error message is *NOT* good enough for something like this.

Further, and maybe veering OT, I know that other players (e.g. Kaffeine) can utilise the codecs, but it's a real fiddle to acquire the relevant URL to hand to them from e.g. the BBC 'listen again' pages. Unless anyone knows something I don't?

BTW - the Kaffeine plug-in breaks the RealPlayer one if both are installed!

I don't do much video browsing but I've never had a problem with libxine1 and w32codec-all. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

Dave Plater wrote:

...

I banned Real from my system, way back when, when I saw what it did to and with my windows 98se system.

Many of us in England would like to, but our (generally) great BBC has chosen to supply its huge volume of 'listen again' and live feeds only in Real and/or MS formats. To access them from a browser is just too painful unless via the RealPlayer mozilla plug-in - the only reason I have it installed.something like this.

Further, and maybe veering OT, I know that other players (e.g. Kaffeine) can utilise the codecs, but it's a real fiddle to acquire the relevant URL to hand to them from e.g. the BBC 'listen again' pages. Unless anyone knows something I don't?

BTW - the Kaffeine plug-in breaks the RealPlayer one if both are installed!

Here is e.g. the BBC Radio 3 link:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra

This one you may play in VLC, Kaffeine, MPlayer ....

The way you find it out:

Open the BBC player in firefox -> CTRL-U -> a few HTML lines pop up. Close to the bottom line you'll find:

p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ram/r3g2.ram">Click here</a> to launch BBC Radio 3 in Real Player.</p>

Enter the following command: "mplayer -dumpstream http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ram/r3g2.ram"

and now: "cat stream.dump" will show you:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra?BBC-UID=6439e06e2b970a635edc8a605060a3f146b95fecb0c0d1b424efd95f750851fe_n&SSO2-UID=

Forget the "cookie stuff" and use:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra

and off you go without UnRealPlayer.

With: "mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile BBC_RADIO3.ram rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra" you may even record the live session for later listening, converting, burning, you name it.

FMF

I see what you mean "please install real player" I'm glad I don't want to listen to it. The above http links open in mplayer by default but they don't do anything. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

Further, and maybe veering OT, I know that other players (e.g. Kaffeine) can utilise the codecs, but it's a real fiddle to acquire the relevant URL to hand to them from e.g. the BBC 'listen again' pages. Unless anyone knows something I don't?

Here is e.g. the BBC Radio 3 link:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra

This one you may play in VLC, Kaffeine, MPlayer ....

The way you find it out:

Open the BBC player in firefox -> CTRL-U -> a few HTML lines pop up. Close to the bottom line you'll find:

p><a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ram/r3g2.ram">Click here</a> to launch BBC Radio 3 in Real Player.</p>

Enter the following command: "mplayer -dumpstream http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/ram/r3g2.ram"

and now: "cat stream.dump" will show you:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra?BBC-UID=6439e06e2b970a635edc8a605060a3f146b95fecb0c0d1b424efd95f750851fe_n&SSO2-UID=

Forget the "cookie stuff" and use:

rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra

and off you go without UnRealPlayer.

With: "mplayer -dumpstream -dumpfile BBC_RADIO3.ram rtsp://rmlive.bbc.co.uk/bbc-rbs/rmlive/ev7/live24/radio3/live/r3_dsat_g2.ra" you may even record the live session for later listening, converting, burning, you name it.

Frank-Michael, Yes, thanks - I do already use the techniques that you quote, especially if I want to save a stream to disc, but I think that your post supports very well my assertion that it's a "real fiddle". I was wondering if there was any way to do all this *without* all this cutting and pasting? My programming skills are rather weak as well as rusty, but this doesn't look too difficult to do... BTW - this method still requires the Realplayer codecs of course. The only way AFAIK to obtain the latest ones legitimately is to download and install their player :-( -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 03 November 2008, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Montag 03 November 2008 schrieb Marc Ensenbach:

...

Stephan Kulow schrieb:

...

dejavu is our default, but I use liberation-fonts 1.04 now and I have to say the difference to the arial webfont I used before is not noticable to my font blind eyes :)

"font blind eyes" may be a part of the problem. Is someone with thorough typographical knowledge involved in the decision process on fonts?

Mike is the expert, we base 99.9% of our decisions on his say.

...

As someone with strong interest in typography and fonts, I can say that for me the look of the fonts on the screen was not only once the reason for me not to upgrade the system. (Mostly because of this, I still use SuSE 10.0 at work, since the look of fonts there is much superior compared to openSUSE 11.0.) I think, it would beneficial for the user experience of openSUSE, if the look of fonts (on the screen) would stronger be taken into account.

That doesn't sound like a constructive suggestion. Let me give you the facts: - we won't put agfa-fonts back on our media, the decision to go "nice EULA" is set. Some may love commercial software, but it's a pain in the neck and we (the openSUSE "managers") decided to leave yes, agfa-fonts would stop us providing a redistributable licence with 11.1 and agfa-fonts come at cost. There's always tension between a free downlaodable Linux distro and useful proprietary software which comes with a $ sign on top. M that past behind us - if you have a good suggestion of the free available fonts to become the default, then please file a bug (just as it was done with the liberation-fonts) - if you dislike the way free software renders free fonts, then I'm afraid you need to get involved in these projects and provide patches or constructive feedback. openSUSE is for most parts only a user of these free parts.

Greetings, Stephan

-- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management Email: michl@suse.de Phone: +49 911 74053-376 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard (MQ) wrote:

Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

...

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

Frank-Michael Fischer wrote:

...

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

...

Further, and maybe veering OT, I know that other players (e.g. Kaffeine) can utilise the codecs, but it's a real fiddle to acquire the relevant URL to hand to them from e.g. the BBC 'listen again' pages. Unless anyone knows something I don't?

This is what mplayer uses to play this stream:

========================================================================== Forced audio codec: mad Opening audio decoder: [ffmpeg] FFmpeg/libavcodec audio decoders AUDIO: 44100 Hz, 2 ch, s16le, 64.1 kbit/4.54% (ratio: 8010->176400) Selected audio codec: [ffcook] afm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg COOK audio decoder) ==========================================================================

ffmpeg is not illegal anywhere (AFAIK). No UnRealPlayer codec needed.

I stand corrected! Good to see that there _is_ a way round this.

Is this the page in question? http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml I clicked just randomly some links there with Firefox/VLC plugin. They played just fine :) -- Vahis http://waxborg.servepics.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Dave Plater:

I banned Real from my system, way back when, when I saw what it did to and with my windows 98se system. Regards Dave P

Right, it was laughable and pathetic then already, like 10 years ago. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vahis wrote:

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

I stand corrected! Good to see that there _is_ a way round this.

Is this the page in question? http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/progs/listenagain.shtml I clicked just randomly some links there with Firefox/VLC plugin.

They played just fine :)

Yes, for me too ;-) However, the listen-again is only part of it, there's also the listen-live e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radio4fm from BBC home page / radio frame (centre) These work in VLC when driven from CLI but (for me at least) not via the vlc-mozilla plugin. -- Cheers Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vahis wrote:

Richard (MQ) wrote: ...

...

However, the listen-again is only part of it, there's also the listen-live e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radio4fm from BBC home page / radio frame (centre)

These work in VLC when driven from CLI but (for me at least) not via the vlc-mozilla plugin.

Two playable links there, both play here, I think it was Six O'Clock News... openSUSE 11.0, Firefox, VLC plugin, everything in today's level.

Vahis, Strange, they don't work for me on either of my two 11.0 systems (both fully up to date) or my 11.1 b4 / factory box - all 3 report e.g."To play please first install Real Player." If I right-click and copy the link then paste into Konsole I can play this using vlc <url> - so its only the plugin that's not right. Can we confirm that the links that work for you are in the form http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radio4fm (this is a live one) and not like this (a listen-again) - these work for me too. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f4s8f/Jazz_on_3_27102008/ BTW I'm using VLC 0.9.5 "Grishenko" from the OSL VideoLAN repo Thanks for any further help... -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 03 November 2008 10:56:30 am Wolfgang Woehl wrote:

a) Novell/opensuse apparently dropped it because Real turned out to be the greedy optimists they set out to be from day 1 of their operation. Which effectively puts them *out* of business. RIP.

You can have RealPlayer for free from their web site. http://www.real.com/linux There are rpm and deb packages also. It seems that is not all greed, but license obligations for third party components. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard (MQ) wrote:

Vahis wrote:

...

Richard (MQ) wrote:

...

...

...

However, the listen-again is only part of it, there's also the listen-live e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radio4fm from BBC home page / radio frame (centre)

These work in VLC when driven from CLI but (for me at least) not via the vlc-mozilla plugin.

Two playable links there, both play here, I think it was Six O'Clock News... openSUSE 11.0, Firefox, VLC plugin, everything in today's level.

Vahis,

Strange, they don't work for me on either of my two 11.0 systems (both fully up to date) or my 11.1 b4 / factory box - all 3 report e.g."To play please first install Real Player."

If I right-click and copy the link then paste into Konsole I can play this using vlc <url> - so its only the plugin that's not right.

Can we confirm that the links that work for you are in the form

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/radio4fm (this is a live one)

Yes

and not like this (a listen-again) - these work for me too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f4s8f/Jazz_on_3_27102008/

BTW I'm using VLC 0.9.5 "Grishenko" from the OSL VideoLAN repo

Thanks for any further help...

Mine is from the openSUSE 11.0 community reposity videolan. pin 0.38 - package info for vlc ------------------------------------------------------------------ *** rpm info ------------------------------------------------------------------ Name : vlc Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 0.9.5 Vendor: VideoLAN Project (http://www.videolan.org) Release : 1.1 Build Date: Sat Oct 25 03:35:59 2008 Install Date: Sun Oct 26 18:49:22 2008 Build Host: messiah Group : Productivity/Multimedia/Video/Players Source RPM: vlc-0.9.5-1.1.src.rpm Size : 1282588 License: GPL Signature : DSA/SHA1, Sat Oct 25 03:37:08 2008, Key ID 33de8fb7c8da93d2 Packager : Dominique Leuenberger Summary : VLC - Video Lan Client (preview of the upcoming version) Description : VLC media player is a highly portable multimedia player for various audio and video formats (MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX, mp3, ogg, ...) as well as DVDs, VCDs, and various streaming protocols. It can also be used as a server to stream in unicast or multicast in IPv4 or IPv6 on a high-bandwidth network. Distribution: VideoLAN / 11.0 ------------------------------------------------------------------ VLC-mozillaplugin 0.9.5-1.4 -- Vahis http://waxborg.servepics.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Gerald Pfeifer:

The converse is also true: No technology has ever saved an IT company that made bad legal (or to a lesser degree, possibly, marketing) choices.

The most prominent example to prove you wrong was Apple (between Jobs). They survived some pretty questionable legal and marketing decisions. I think they did because their core asset (a deep-rooted in-house techie culture) was rock solid.

Openess and Open Source are cornerstones of openSUSE and I have full expectation of the core openSUSE distribution heading more and more towards a fully Open Source solution.

While this sounds sweet I fail to see how Novell/opensuse wants to help the process when they choose RealPlayer for its default music player like they did for opensuse 11.

At the same time, we surely can (and should) make sure proprietary add-ons like fonts, Flash, RealPlayer, Java,... are enabled and easily consumable for those that want to leverage those.

Ok, given you don't agree to lock-in, inferior technology etc. Which you're almost always forced to do with proprietary stuff. I think instead of chasing proprietary add-ons (you'll never fully get it anyway) key distributions should put way more time and energy into coming up with original concepts. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vahis wrote:

Mine is from the openSUSE 11.0 community reposity videolan. pin 0.38 - package info for vlc

------------------------------------------------------------------ *** rpm info ------------------------------------------------------------------

Name : vlc Relocations: (not relocatable) Version : 0.9.5 Vendor: VideoLAN Project (http://www.videolan.org) Release : 1.1 Build Date: Sat Oct 25 03:35:59 2008 Install Date: Sun Oct 26 18:49:22 2008 Build Host: messiah Group : Productivity/Multimedia/Video/Players Source RPM: vlc-0.9.5-1.1.src.rpm Size : 1282588 License: GPL Signature : DSA/SHA1, Sat Oct 25 03:37:08 2008, Key ID 33de8fb7c8da93d2 Packager : Dominique Leuenberger Summary : VLC - Video Lan Client (preview of the upcoming version) Description : VLC media player is a highly portable multimedia player for various audio and video formats (MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX, mp3, ogg, ...) as well as DVDs, VCDs, and various streaming protocols. It can also be used as a server to stream in unicast or multicast in IPv4 or IPv6 on a high-bandwidth network. Distribution: VideoLAN / 11.0

Hmm, I seem to have a slightly different version - 0.9.5-1.4, built Thu Oct 30 00:19:08 2008 same as your plugin. Possibly there is a regression between these versions? I did have Realplayer installed but then removed it, as far as I know there's no traces left... I previously thought that the listen-again links were working using VLC but have since realised that they're using Flash, if I disable that plug-in they stop working too... I'm very frustrated by this but have now got definitely OT so I will give up for a bit. -- Cheers Richard (MQ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org