Op vrijdag 16 juni 2017 21:35:09 CEST schreef Larx:

...

Hello,

I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).

Not at all 'current' . Leap 42.3 has not been released yet. Where did you get  this info?

I know that 42.3 is in beta, and therefore I posted to the factory mailing list. And therefore what I mean with "current" is the most recent snapshot of the currently "rolling release" state of 42.3 :-/.

...

Everything went without a hitch. However, I had to discover that only GTK apps still work. I tried that from Gnome and IceWM. The desktop is there and GTK apps (maybe other toolkits, too) start. Anything Qt based crashes at startup. The same with Firefox. This is on a i915 integrated graphics laptop. I also created a blank user account, same situation. I really don't know where to find a hint what's going on here. Any ideas?

Larx

Yep, you've upgraded to a not yet finished release.

I know that. However, given the conservative strategy of Leap, in which 42.3 does not really seem so much different than an updated 42.2, I had the hope not to run into relevant problems.

Having said that, 42.3 runs  very stable on my test partition, upgrade through 'zypper dup' after changing  the repos resulted in a working desktop ( and other things I checked ). The  phenomena you describe make me think your upgrade strategy was somehow  different.   

I did two upgrade strategies. One was "zypper dup" from the running system with the 42.3 repo enabled - only GTK apps start. I went back to 42.2, and tried again by updating with a bootable installation USB stick. Agsin, only GTK apps start. No Qt, no Firefox, no Chrome... I fail to see problems with the update strategy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I didn't see you mention anywhere which WM/DE you use. On host big41

I did, somewhere in the beginning: Usually I default to Gnome, but I also tried IceWM, which seems kind of openSuSE's default fallback.

here, I just did zypper up and then zypper dup on a 42.3 that was a new installation of 42.2/KDE3 originally in November, last updated previously about a month ago. Nothing I tried crashes:

FirefoxESR 45 Firefox 51 FirefoxESR 52 SeaMonkey 2.46 SeaMonkey 2.48b1 Konsole Gwenview (3) File Commander/L Avidemux3

I gather that it must be some strange incompatibility for me, as I seem to be the only one. I don't have such a exotic system, it's an Intel-based MS Surface Pro 3 with a fairly fresh, good working 42.2 installation. Only exotic stuff is a few NFS mounts and SSSD with LDAP for authentication, but that should be harmless. I don't have an idea where to start finding the reason for this behaviour :-( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput! If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything works as expected.

Those want help really need to provide better information about the hardware than simply "Surface Pro 3" or "i915", which say little to would-be helpers,

I had hoped that the problem could be solved without digging in the hw specs... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list does not allow attachments (btw, I really felt a bit retro subscribing to this mailing list and having to use susepaste for attachements instead of using a forum or something "modern" like that.)

making them work extra to figure out someplace just to get started. I took the trouble and found on a web forum

8086:22b0

which translates to Intel Braswell. So, focus on that keyword, as yours seems to be a unique problem likely related to your specific gfx. Share also this:

egrep 'onnec|EE' /var/log/Xorg.?.log

Nothing here. I would have been glad to find some hint in some place as obvious as this: [  1975.645] Current Operating System: Linux surface 4.12.0-rc5- 1.g270295f-default #1 SMP PREEMPT Mon Jun 12 16:41:35 UTC 2017 (270295f) x86_64 (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. [  1975.925] (EE) libinput bug: Microsoft Surface Type Cover Touchpad: Internal or external? Please file a bug. [  1975.960] (EE) libinput bug: Microsoft Surface Type Cover Touchpad: Internal or external? Please file a bug. [  1976.236] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "NTRG0001:01 1B96:1B05" (type: TOUCHSCREEN, id 14) The error always appears and did no hurt. And don't stumble over the kernel version, the same problem also occurs with the stock kernel. However, the Surface Pro needs a more modern kernel in order to work properly.

which should tell us running kernel, which driver Xorg is actually using, how it's connected to the display, and any error messages coming from the server. Alternatively, pastebin the whole log (zypper in susepaste; man susepaste).

Some other commands that might help us help you:

inxi

Don't know the command.

hwinfo

Would like to susepaste, but for some reason susepaste does not create a link (maybe textfile is too long).

lspci

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT DRAM Controller (rev 0b) 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 0b) 00:03.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT HD Audio Controller (rev 0b) 00:14.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series USB xHCI HC (rev 04) 00:16.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series HECI #0 (rev 04) 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 8 Series HD Audio Controller (rev 04) 00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 8 Series PCI Express Root Port 3 (rev e4) 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 8 Series LPC Controller (rev 04) 00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series SATA Controller 1 [AHCI mode] (rev 04) 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 8 Series SMBus Controller (rev 04) 01:00.0 Ethernet controller: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88W8897 [AVASTAR] 802.11ac Wireless

dmesg | grep error

[    2.530745] i8042: probe of i8042 failed with error -5 [    4.676300] tpm_tis: probe of MSFT0101:00 failed with error -22 [    4.757933] dw_dmac: probe of INTL9C60:00 failed with error -16 [    4.765984] soc_button_array: probe of MSHW0029:00 failed with error -2 [    7.154431] mwifiex_pcie 0000:01:00.0: CMD_RESP: cmd 0x242 error, result=0x2 [ 1985.347244] nextcloud[7447]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f9fb62ff6c1 sp 00007ffd55e1a540 error 4 in libgdk-x11- 2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f9fb628c000+b0000] [ 1985.380333] wire-desktop[7435]: segfault at 0 ip 00007fc3835a26c1 sp 00007fffd0078a60 error 4 in libgdk-x11- 2.0.so.0.2400.31[7fc38352f000+b0000] [ 1993.165541] firefox[7692]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f27413ad6c1 sp 00007ffc1b447790 error 4 in libgdk-x11- 2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f274133a000+b0000] [ 1993.191853] crashreporter[7701]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f3c736b16c1 sp 00007ffc9a50f380 error 4 in libgdk-x11- 2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f3c7363e000+b0000] Here you can watch the crashing of my startup apps :-(

journalctl [-e|tail -n##]

???

journalctl -e _COMM=gdm-x-session

https://paste.opensuse.org/16965081 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-06-18 07:15, Felix Miata wrote:

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 06:25 (UTC+0200):

...

To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput! If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything works as expected. . Found how exactly? ... ... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list does not allow attachments. Discourages, not disallows. Obsolete logs needlessly clutter mailing list archives. Logs on susepaste expire as there usefulness expires.

The main reason for the request to use susepaste is politeness. Ie, not forcing all the subscribers to download large posts that they are not interested in. Remember that there are still people using bad internet connections and others that have to pay for each megabyte they download. Another reason is that pasting a log file into an email often makes the line wrap making it difficult to read. Instead uploading intact to somewhere keeps the long lines. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 2017-06-18 19:43, Larx wrote:

Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 12:36 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

The main reason for the request to use susepaste is politeness. Ie, not forcing all the subscribers to download large posts that they are not interested in. Remember that there are still people using bad internet connections and others that have to pay for each megabyte they download.

Another reason is that pasting a log file into an email often makes the line wrap making it difficult to read. Instead uploading intact to somewhere keeps the long lines.

This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself to sign in to a mailing list one again. When I started about probably 20 years ago, it was OK to have mailboxes full of list traffic. Now I have other priorities in live, and nowadays am used to have e.g. user friendly forums with attachments for logs, Github issue pages, the option to selectively follow only the topics I'm interested, and so on. I can concentrate on other things in life than browsing through lists.

As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry) this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile, a completely seperate place to put logs, and a Bugzilla with a strange UI (compare it to others), where I have to create an account which wants to know all kinds of things from me as if I am a corporate customer of Novell.

A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail client. And about the bugzilla account, there is one link somewhere that doesn't ask that much. But I don't remember it.

I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k modems into account.

The entire world is not modernized. At home, I have unlimited and fast internet. When not at home, I have less speed, and a monthly cap. Without considering third world countries, the other day we were talking about what internet connection some people get on Australia, and it is not brilliant at all.

Sorry for the OT, but all this came into my mind when trying to take part in the openSUSE world once again.

This complete infrastructure is unworthy of this great distro!!

You could contribute to make it better. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

* Larx [06-18-17 14:08]: [...]

I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to- use interfaces to their community.

and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed. why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users? what do you think the response world/will be? try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Larx [06-18-17 14:08]: [...]

...

I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to- use interfaces to their community.

and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed. why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users? what do you think the response world/will be?

try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.

That's not nice at all. If anything, newcomer feedback is tremendously more important than old-timers when it comes to these kinds of things. If the goal of openSUSE is to draw in users to become contributors, you can't act like that and expect people to want to stay. Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3 specifically to address this pain point. As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 18. Juni 2017 22:27:10 MESZ schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch :

...

Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. Juni 2017 um 21:05 Uhr Von: "Neal Gompa" An: oS-fctry Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3 specifically to address this pain point.

As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it.

Since one year it is possible, because the Heroes Team was founded at the oSC 16. Heroes are responsible for the openSUSE infrastructure. Mailing lists are in community hands (Per Jessen) now, too. We are open for new ideas and improvements. You can contribute there, too.

Best regards, Sarah

Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

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Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr Von: Larx

...

...

Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.

https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/

Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE media to find it? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19 June 2017 at 08:09, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

...

...

Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr Von: Larx

...

...

...

Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.

https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/

Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE media to find it?

Is this a joke? Assuming yes, then I have a joke too :) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=openSUSE+Infrastructure First hit: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Infrastructure_policy (Mentions the Heroes) Second hit: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes (Describes them in detail) There is plenty of non archived documentation regarding the openSUSE Heroes Perhaps you don't like reading, this is the year 2017 after all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSXniKW_q9Q There has been so much information about, from, surrounding, and regarding our awesome openSUSE Heroes frankly anyone claiming they've never heard about them might as well wear a sign saying "I don't pay much attention to what's going on in the openSUSE Project" And that's alright, everyone doesn't need to pay attention to everything, all this information is still out there on the wiki, and youtube, and news.o.o, and lists.o.o, precisely because we don't expect everyone to pay attention to everything. But it sure makes Larx and your criticisms rather amusing, or if they're not intended as jokes, rather stupid. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op maandag 19 juni 2017 08:09:17 CEST schreef Andrei Borzenkov:

On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch

wrote:

...

...

Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr Von: Larx

...

...

...

Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.> https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/

Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE media to find it?

News about the openSUSE heroes was not just on the news ticker. It was propagated across social media, other media wrote about it, and the Heroes got their share of attention at the openSUSE Conference. If I perform a google search for "opensuse infrastructure" the first hit that shows is the openSUSE Heroes page. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:05:54 -0400 Neal Gompa wrote:

On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Larx [06-18-17 14:08]: [...]

...

I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to- use interfaces to their community.

and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed. why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users? what do you think the response world/will be?

try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.

That's not nice at all. If anything, newcomer feedback is tremendously more important than old-timers when it comes to these kinds of things. If the goal of openSUSE is to draw in users to become contributors, you can't act like that and expect people to want to stay.

If there are people who enjoy wading through walls of text broken arbitrarily into 'topics' and 'pages' there exists mailing-list to forum gateway software. You get at least one outsourced at google called Google Groups and there is at least one opensource which somebody who cares enough can set up and maintain - it is used by the Ruby language mailing list.

Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3 specifically to address this pain point.

Archives that are useful before you transfer them to your local harddisk and index them locally are desirable, sure. Still most mailing lists provide somewhat usable archives in the form of monthly mbox files which you can merge locally. On the other hand, forums are one huge useless inaccessible archive which works really hard to prevent anyone from accessing the data it contains. It is considered a feature that users cannot access some posts so you cannot export them in an usable way without breaking the usage paradigm that administrators can limit access to posts. And if you want to see a forum without access limitations there is at least one - it's called 4chan ;-) Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 15:26:22 +0200 Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

Op maandag 19 juni 2017 14:56:01 CEST schreef Michal Suchánek:

...

On the other hand, forums are one huge useless inaccessible archive which works really hard to prevent anyone from accessing the data it contains. It is considered a feature that users cannot access some posts so you cannot export them in an usable way without breaking the usage paradigm that administrators can limit access to posts. And if you want to see a forum without access limitations there is at least one - it's called 4chan ;-)

Sorry to say so: saying so about social media like Facebook, G+ is OK, but this is not true for (at least) the openSUSE forums.

site: forums.opensuse.org 'searchstring' in Google search

I exclude the "site: forums.opensuse.org" and if it happens to give SUSE forum results or Ubuntu forums results that look useful that's fine with me.

search function of the forums works fine too.

Not for me. I was not able to locate posts which the above method pointed out and turned out useful. For example https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/439173-prevent-an-update-from-bei...) talks about package locks but when I put "package locks" in the forum search field and press search I get no results. This is not surprising at all. All forums I have used so far have broken search feature.

...

Thanks

Michal

I even dare to say that for a lot of people forums are more friendlier. All the subforums, different languages, an openSUSE version tagging sysotem, moderators that point out to new users how to create decent posts, and, last but not least NNTP access for those who don't want to use the web-interface.

NNTP access is nice. However, to not split the community in forum users and mailing list users it would be helpful to bridge that NNTP to mailing lists as appropriate. Unfortunately, mailing lists do not have the NNTP delete feature or the ability to move posts from one mailing list to another by a moderator. So it would require that people on the forums use more common sense than is commonplace in forums when posting. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 18.06.2017 um 21:05 schrieb Neal Gompa:

[...] Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3 specifically to address this pain point.

Any chance for someone to package that? Might be the first step to getting it deployed. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/06/17 09:43 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

Only Google Groups is categorically as bad as Fedora's, though Yahoogroups isn't far behind.

I'm not arguing. One GoogleGroup list I'm on, a subscriber built his own index using a full text scanner/indexer, then made the index available on his own web site to other users of that list. That was a decade ago. That kind of indexing software is not anything leading edge. Its a bit above the QuickIndex that was in 1978 UNIX but still far behind anything the Google indexer can achieve in speed and completeness. My point is that a good indexer is not difficult. -- There's about as much difference between the two major party's as there is between McDonald's and Burger King fries. They both cost too much and neither one is good for you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at any forum. . All forums I've tried are inferior to email, little different from the rest of

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:04 (UTC+0200): ... the rude bloated modern internet. .

Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug. . Bad as the microfocus interference is, it's still little different from most other bugzilla-based bug trackers on the web, nearly all of which are better overall than:

Debian's email-based tracker Github Google Code Jira (bugreports.qt.io) Launchpad bugzilla.redhat.com Trac It's actually a significant reason why I have not switched from openSUSE to Debian as primary OS. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/06/17 02:04 PM, Larx wrote:

Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.

+1 I tried it once and didn't like it so I avoid it now. -- Together, we can make ourselves a nation that spends more on books than on bombs, more on hospitals than the terrible tools of war, more on decent houses than military aircraft. -- Robert Kennedy March 24, 1968 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Axel Braun wrote:

On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more user friendly.

Please post your suggestions. Or even open a ticket at https://progress.opensuse.org/ -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward wrote:

On 19/06/17 03:34 AM, Axel Braun wrote:

...

On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more user friendly.

At the very least, the 'advanced' search is not doing a good job!

https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/4314 https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/17604 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon 19 Jun 2017 07:35:43 AM CDT, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 06/19/2017 12:34 AM, Axel Braun wrote:

...

Although Email - like Newsgroups - may sound old fashioned, they still have advantages over forums - low bandwidth requirements, the option to download mails and work offline (yes, I'm travelling every now and then), to apply filters....just to mention some.

For me the big difference is push vs pull. Forums require effort on my part to search for and "pull" information into my work context. Email information is "pushed" to me from multiple accounts and is available for easy processing and archiving with the help of Thunderbird. I literally couldn't do my user support work if I was limited to forums. That being said, I also use forums for various kinds of off-line work. It's nice to have choice!

Regards, Lew

Hi I use claws-mail for the forums via nntp and don't use the openSUSE mailing list instead subscribe to no-mail and use gmane instead. If a group doesn't exist on gmane it's a simple process to ask for it to be added.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE Leap 42.2 | GNOME 3.20.2 | 4.4.62-18.6-default HP 255 G4 Notebook | A6-6310 X4 @ 1.80 GHz | AMD Radeon R4 up 16 days 13:09, 2 users, load average: 0.38, 0.70, 0.74 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon 19 Jun 2017 05:08:53 PM CDT, Andreas Schwab wrote:

On Jun 19 2017, Malcolm wrote:

...

group doesn't exist on gmane it's a simple process to ask for it to be added....

Not any more, unfortunately.

Andreas.

Hi It was handed off to new maintainers and is alive and well.... http://home.gmane.org/ -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE Leap 42.2 | GNOME 3.20.2 | 4.4.62-18.6-default HP 255 G4 Notebook | A6-6310 X4 @ 1.80 GHz | AMD Radeon R4 up 16 days 14:37, 2 users, load average: 0.81, 0.42, 0.29 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andreas Schwab wrote:

On Jun 19 2017, Malcolm wrote:

...

It was handed off to new maintainers and is alive and well.... http://home.gmane.org/

As alive as a zombie.

It does appear to be a little more alive than that - the news-server is running, I just retrieved a list of some 31000 groups. gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.announce seems to be alive and well, for instance. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (24.9°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andreas Schwab wrote:

On Jun 20 2017, Per Jessen wrote:

...

It does appear to be a little more alive than that - the news-server is running, I just retrieved a list of some 31000 groups.

The news server is still independently operated by Lars.

Oh, I was not aware, I had the impression Lars had pulled out altogether. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.6°C) http://www.cloudsuisse.com/ - your owncloud, hosted in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-06-18 20:04, Larx wrote:

Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail client.

Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at any forum.

Then why don't you use the forum? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 19:43 (UTC+0200):

This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself to sign in to a mailing list one again.. You didn't have to: https://forums.opensuse.org/forum.php

Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces . Email offers a tried and true interface. Consistent interface, lack of change, is one of its attractions. Subscribers are here by their own choices, not forced. We get to have legible black on white, or any other color schemes of our own choosing, and optimally sized text, without jumping through hoops to get them. And, we need not be online, or load a bloated web application, to read our email.

Unwanted line wrapping of log files is avoided by either attaching to email, or pastebinning, the latter of which doesn't necessarily have to use http://susepaste.org/. In addition to other paste URLs there is the option to use personal web space.

I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k modems into account. . Not everyone can live where broadband or unmetered bandwidth are options. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum since dozens of years is customable, you subscribe only to the subjects you like, you can get tailor made email digests etc. I know the openSUSE forums, yes, but I think they really don't have the quality of support needed, no really good answers are found there. You might just take my comments not as an insult, but as the impression one gets when trying to get more involved in openSUSE. And I use SUSE since 5.x, however I also think that you also have to adapt to the technical standards evolving over the time. SUSE community infrastructure seems not to have done that. Am 18. Juni 2017 20:31:57 MESZ schrieb Felix Miata :

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 19:43 (UTC+0200):

...

This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself to sign in to a mailing list one again.. You didn't have to: https://forums.opensuse.org/forum.php

...

Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces . Email offers a tried and true interface. Consistent interface, lack of change, is one of its attractions. Subscribers are here by their own choices, not forced. We get to have legible black on white, or any other color schemes of our own choosing, and optimally sized text, without jumping through hoops to get them. And, we need not be online, or load a bloated web application, to read our email.

Unwanted line wrapping of log files is avoided by either attaching to email, or pastebinning, the latter of which doesn't necessarily have to use http://susepaste.org/. In addition to other paste URLs there is the option to use personal web space.

...

I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k modems into account. . Not everyone can live where broadband or unmetered bandwidth are options. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:40:55 -0400 Felix Miata wrote:

Larx composed on 2017-06-19 06:06 (UTC+0200):

...

That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum since dozens of years is customable, you subscribe only to the subjects you like, you can get tailor made email digests etc.. Email needs to be customized, if at all, once only.

Each forum has different interfaces for customizing to learn, and *must* be separately customized, without exception, as they're all designed for people who enjoy 85th percentile or better vision, using little browser windows that only fill 1/3 or less of a screen. The need often repeats as each's admin sees fit so replace its "worn" or "obsolete" styles with "new and improved" styles that reduce its site's usability, and obsolete existing ad blocker settings.

Further, state of the art archival and filtering techniques for e-mail allow you to locate the topics you are interested in after the fact. In every single forum I have tried to use the search function is almost useless, due to carelessnes or bad web interface people tend to post to different topics than intended, and without direct access to the database holding the forum posts you are left with big useless pile of text - which you cannot even see at once due to the web interface limiting you to 'pages' of posts. So in my opinion the forums are by far the least useful method of communication in use. People try to use them because they do not know anything better but that's completely backwards. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 2017-06-18 19:43, Larx wrote:

As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry) this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile, [...] I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k modems into account.

Your mobile does become terrible like a 33.6 whenever it shows GPRS/EDGE. (Especially in Neuland Germany.) You don't really get out, do you? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/19/2017 09:21 AM, Adam Majer wrote:

Anyway, back to your Qt issues. Without at least a backtrace, we can all just be guessing at the problem. Is it possible for you to get a backtrace of the crash?

OK, there is a bugreport for this now. https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820 So someone should look at this now I guess. Seems there is something specific to the hardware and the plugin you've identified ;) Cheers, Adam -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 18. Juni 2017 07:15:28 MESZ schrieb Felix Miata :

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 06:25 (UTC+0200):

...

To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput! If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything works as expected.

. Found how exactly?

Well, in all xorg packages only this one made a version jump with 42.3. All others are still at their 42.2 version, only another revision. So the probability was high ;-).

  Glad you found the problem. Did you report it on http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/ (or at least mention it on ircs://freenode/opensuse-factory), so that newer libinput versions might get fixed?

Sigh. I guess I have to revitalize my openSUSE bugzilla account, you're right. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200): .

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820 . No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are (supposedly) openSUSE users: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Larx [06-18-17 23:19]:

Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:

...

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200): .

...

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820

. No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are (supposedly) openSUSE users: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820  

Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process, which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the content seems pretty much the same.

Leap is not SLE but is based upon, just the same as Tumbleweed is not Leap or SLE

(For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure leaves a lot to be improved.)

yes, blame your failures on everyone else. everything can be improved to some degree. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Larx composed on 2017-06-19 05:16 (UTC+0200): .

Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 Felix Miata composed: .

...

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200): .

...

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820 . No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are (supposedly) openSUSE users: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820 . Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process, which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the content seems pretty much the same.. How you got where you wound up is anybody's guess. Its website, with too many different ways to login, and too many needs to login, in order to get anything done, is hardly one of openSUSE's more endearing features.

The difference is one of polite convention, not necessity. Most of us here are openSUSE users, not SLE users. It's an opensuse forum. The bug tracker we use has three aliases: 1-buzilla.suse.com; 2-bugzilla.novell.com; and 3-bugzilla.opensuse.org. Thus, we have the opportunity to bloat our browser histories with 3X as many URLs per bug as other Linux bug tracker users. Sticking to the one that best matches the forum is simply good behavior. .

(For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure leaves a lot to be improved.) . You and I disagree only in degree. Nothing's perfect. openSUSE's positives simply do a better job of outweighing its negatives than other distros. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2017-06-19 05:16, Larx wrote:

Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:

...

Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200): .

...

See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820

. No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are (supposedly) openSUSE users: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820

Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process, which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the content seems pretty much the same.

Our bugzilla system has several "faces". There is one for openSUSE, another for SLE... They are basically the same, but have different colours and probably different options for entering a bug.

(For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure leaves a lot to be improved.)

Well, once you get used to things we don't use the long road anymore, but jump direct to the place - meaning that we seasoned users do not see the route you took or the problems you found. You are in a better position than us to report those problems. Let me see. You went here: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/index.cgi then you hit login. This takes you to a Microfocus page. I suppose that here you clicked on "create an account", which takes you to a SUSE page. I suppose that going through those domain changes is confusing. It asks for: First Name* Last Name* Company* [] I am not associated with a company Country* Email Address* and login info: Username* Password* Repeat Password* Security Question* Security Answer* Repeat Security Answer* I don't find those questions invasive, but as I did not go any further I don't know if there are more questions ahead. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)