[opensuse-factory-mozilla] Re: Firefox + KDE integration: Getting FF to use Dolphin reliably. 12+ years and counting.
(1) I hear & acknowledge your points. (2) It's proving challenging for me to not have it come across as 'Linux is insignificant, why should we bother'. I'm trying, but ... (3) Superior #s do not make a superior species. Take cockroaches vs. people, e.g. Tho, it's arguable ... And truly, with due respect, and intent to simply provide ... feedback and some incentive ... perhaps if Mozilla was a bit more openly cooperative users other than just/primarilyFirefox-on-Windows-desktop, then perhaps there'd be more of those users, no? Spend some time *in* KDE community -- users are giving up on Firefox, with a giant 'Meh'. "Here", we're an enterprise shop that uses Linux on the Desktop, as are some other, rather significant companies. We'd use Mozilla products much more widely if issues like this languishing bug that causes all sorts of confusion for our users, and is easily fixed by siwtching to Chrome across the company, didn't exist. (We won't talk at all about the abandonment of unfinished Thunderbird ... that stung us badly, and still does; guessing we're not alone).
From *our* perspective, which I certainly recognize is different than yours, KDE & Linux are much broader reaching, enterprise imperatives for a company like us, and our users, than "which browser" we use. Particularly with one or more serious alternatives available.
A point to keep in mind is that - there's a community of users who DO want this fixed, including an Opensuse developer who HAS a (hacky) fix - and that the common thread has been, if not is, that -- just can't get any interest at Mozilla. Tought to fix the problem in Mozilla product when there's noone willing to talk AT Mozilla. Or, if what you say is true, and continues to be, that KDE support -- and perhaps Linux, too -- is not a priority, then a clear statement of those missing-priorities would be certainly helpful. If only get 'us' to stop wingeing and focus our minority interest and limited resources elsewhere.
That said, there should probably be a discussion ...
If that's an invitation to the outside world -- Linux & KDE to enter into discussion, great. Provide the name of a point person @ Mozilla and a willingness to have 'this' talk, and I'll do my part to see if I can make some connections. Thanks! On Mon, Jul 7, 2014, at 01:13 PM, Justin Dolske wrote:
On 7/3/14 1:44 PM, grantksupport@operamail.com wrote:
There are LOTS of users that use Firefox on Linux in a KDE environment.
Keep in mind this is is a very relative number -- _All_ Linux usage represents about 3% of Firefox usage. We have 7x more _Windows XP_ users.
It's been reported as a bug in Firefox 12+ years ago & has spawned multiple other bugs.
KDE support hasn't been a priority for Mozilla, nor is it currently a priority. Getting better support for KDE into Firefox will need to be an effort driven and sustained by the KDE community.
There's a fix/workaround in Opensuse (pkg: mozilla-kde4-integration; https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?project=openSUSE%3AFactory&package=mozilla-kde4-integration), although it's not been accepted in current state @Firefox for upstream inclusion.
Afaict, discussion & activity are basically dead.
It appears that way. Of the bugs you listed, only bug 528598 has any patches (from over a year ago), part of which seems to a forked copy of the biggest piece of browser UI (browser.xul). I'd suggest that if someone in the KDE community is interested in getting fixes upstreamed to Mozilla, the first step will be to break things up into small pieces that can be reviewed and committed individually.
That said, there should probably be a discussion if we even want to accept such patches -- 12 years without significant contributors suggests any KDE code in the Mozilla tree would quickly break/bitrot without someone actively maintaining it.
Justin _______________________________________________ firefox-dev mailing list firefox-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+owner@opensuse.org
(2) It's proving challenging for me to not have it come across as 'Linux is insignificant, why should we bother'. I'm trying, but …
Just chiming in briefly to speak to this point, because it's easy to get the wrong end of this particular stick. It's not as simple as "this platform doesn't have many users, so we explicitly won't make efforts to support it". Mozilla is a community, and a collection of communities. Parts of this huge piece of software that don't have an active community around them -- testers, developers, folks who care -- tend to rust. We actively reject "code bomb" features, because those features inevitably become a disproportionate maintenance burden. The only sane standpoints to take are: * Putting in time to this thing will significantly help to achieve our mission. This is why we still support Windows XP, even if few people in the developer community are active XP users. This is a small set with a high bar to entry, and the math doesn't work in KDE's case. * There are enough folks who are invested in this thing that it will be self-supporting. The latter is what Justin is suggesting: if the KDE-using part of the Mozilla community -- which I assume includes you -- considers KDE integration to be important, it needs to step up and own it by investing time. That means a long-term commitment to fixing bugs, maintaining tests, contributing to the integration points in Firefox, etc. If there are enough developers who are interested, starting the process should be straightforward: good patches (with tests!) on bugs, and a commitment to owning that work going forward. The bugs you mention aren't good evidence for this yet, but you can change that.
We'd use Mozilla products much more widely if issues like this languishing bug that causes all sorts of confusion for our users, and is easily fixed by siwtching to Chrome across the company, didn't exist. (We won't talk at all about the abandonment of unfinished Thunderbird ... that stung us badly, and still does; guessing we're not alone).
Mozilla isn't a company that's trying to win the market. It's a community that's trying to change the world. That MoCo doesn't fund the salaries for development of Thunderbird doesn't mean it's abandoned, and that people use Chrome doesn't mean we've failed -- quite the opposite! Chrome is a great browser. A rising tide lifts all ships.
That said, there should probably be a discussion ...
If that's an invitation to the outside world -- Linux & KDE to enter into discussion, great. Provide the name of a point person @ Mozilla and a willingness to have 'this' talk, and I'll do my part to see if I can make some connections.
firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start. But remember: people who care need to own solving the problem. It's not enough to spend time advocating for someone else to fix it. -R-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014, at 06:49 PM, Richard Newman wrote:
* There are enough folks who are invested in this thing that it will be self-supporting.
The latter is what Justin is suggesting: if the KDE-using part of the Mozilla community -- which I assume includes you -- considers KDE integration to be important, it needs to step up and own it by investing time. That means a long-term commitment to fixing bugs, maintaining tests, contributing to the integration points in Firefox, etc.
If there are enough developers who are interested, starting the process should be straightforward: good patches (with tests!) on bugs, and a commitment to owning that work going forward. The bugs you mention aren't good evidence for this yet, but you can change that.
My point that I'm apparently failing to make at all here is that people HAVE invested time -- trying repeatedly over the last 12 years -- and quite frankly feel ignored/rejected. As an outside reading the bugs etc, I can frankly see why. This HAS been run up the flagpole a number of times by !Mozilla. However, for it to succeed it needs input/acceptance/participation FROM Mozilla. "you" after all, are the stewards & gatekeepers of this code.
Mozilla isn't a company that's trying to win the market. It's a community that's trying to change the world.
That world happens to include those of us most likely to early-adopt your products and use them in our companies and technical environments. But I digress ...
That MoCo doesn't fund the salaries for development of Thunderbird doesn't mean it's abandoned
One word. CardDAV. Ok, two. Ensemble. DIfferent discussion ...
and that people use Chrome doesn't mean we've failed -- quite the opposite! Chrome is a great browser.
I agree
A rising tide lifts all ships.
Nice philosohpy, Often the case. Personally, I think there's more to be concerned about here, e.g. http://www.zdnet.com/firefox-web-browser-popularity-wanes-7000031310/ Let me be clear -- I'm a fan. I've been generally surrounded by others, too. Imo, Mozilla could use more users that are fans. Lots of us are still scratching our heads about not providing a mechanism and an umbrella from Mozilla for many to help fund those ^^ devs.
firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start. But remember: people who care need to own solving the problem. It's not enough to spend time advocating for someone else to fix it.
Agreed. Nor is it enough for devs at solid projects like Opensue who've worked on the problem, and posted bugs at Mozilla simply to be ignored by those with the 'keys to the car'. The right people would need to talk. Starting with a mutual interest in openly addressing the problem, it's challenge, and search for a solution. In the end, Firefox devs. That's not me. I'm just a user in this case. There are _clearly_ talented folks interested in this problem scattered across projecs. Are there at Mozilla? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+owner@opensuse.org
On 08/07/14 03:49, Richard Newman wrote:
That said, there should probably be a discussion ...
If that's an invitation to the outside world -- Linux & KDE to enter into discussion, great. Provide the name of a point person @ Mozilla and a willingness to have 'this' talk, and I'll do my part to see if I can make some connections.
firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start. But remember: people who care need to own solving the problem. It's not enough to spend time advocating for someone else to fix it.
Or, said differently: I believe that there is plenty of good will among Mozilla developers to help Firefox + Dolphin along the road (starting with reviewing patches and mentoring newcomers). However, our resources are quite strained at the moment and we clearly cannot kickstart that project. If you have any technical question, feel free to reach out through dev-platform or IRC. Best regards, David -- David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD Performance Team, Mozilla
Hi Grant,
Thanks for your plea for better KDE integration!
I think that all the points that tell you _why_ we haven’t stepped up to spearhead the KDE integration ‘project’ have been mentioned and discussed here. I just wanted to stress a, perhaps, additional point of view:
The KDE project is quite resource constrained at the moment, working hard on KDE 5. Congrats on the first stable release of Frameworks 5, btw! More big milestones are coming up and the future is looking bright, when I look at screenshots/ mockups of versions to come…
This is no different for our ‘little’ project; we need to pick our battles carefully.
If there’d be an opportunity to work more closely with the KDE team, I’m sure we could find the resources for coordination work. KDE desktop has the opportunity, it always had, to make Firefox their own. To submit patches that improves shell integration and more, to make Firefox part of their internal projects and allocate resources to do the work.
Firefox 29 introduced a more uniform look-and-feel, less Gnome-y… I’d say now’s the time to start!
Mike.
On 08 Jul 2014, at 10:48, David Rajchenbach-Teller
On 08/07/14 03:49, Richard Newman wrote:
That said, there should probably be a discussion ...
If that's an invitation to the outside world -- Linux & KDE to enter into discussion, great. Provide the name of a point person @ Mozilla and a willingness to have 'this' talk, and I'll do my part to see if I can make some connections.
firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start. But remember: people who care need to own solving the problem. It's not enough to spend time advocating for someone else to fix it.
Or, said differently: I believe that there is plenty of good will among Mozilla developers to help Firefox + Dolphin along the road (starting with reviewing patches and mentoring newcomers). However, our resources are quite strained at the moment and we clearly cannot kickstart that project.
If you have any technical question, feel free to reach out through dev-platform or IRC.
Best regards, David
-- David Rajchenbach-Teller, PhD Performance Team, Mozilla
_______________________________________________ firefox-dev mailing list firefox-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+owner@opensuse.org
Thanks for the comments. I'm taking you up on the offer that "firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start", and posting the following 'everywhere' I can find. If there really is interest, consolidating it is a needed 1st step. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This issue -- of improving KDE + Firefox integration, generally, and of getting Firefox to use Dolphin, specifically -- has languished for a long time. It has, after all, been percolating, unresolved, for ~ 12 yrs now. Atm, it's basically dead & inactive. I'm hoping that that can be reversed. If "you" are still interested in good/solid KDE+Firefox integration, read-on -- IMO, not getting to a decent solution has not been for lack of trying/interest: Bug 140751 - Integrate Mozilla with KDE https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140751 Bug 528598 - provide a class to check for KDE environment and to interface with kmozillahelper https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528598 Provide better Firefox KDE integration https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/494067 Bug 528510 - [Tracking] Port OpenSUSE KDE Integration for Firefox https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528510 Firefox on KDE https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.platforms.linux/XKyWG8Nw... (I'm sure there are more ...) As of this date, there's still no solution that works consistently well. Opensuse's patches are the closest to it (cref packages: "kmozillahelper", "mozilla-kde4-integration"), & have been intermittently available/functional in Opensuse, as well as ported to Ubuntu, Arch, others. But, even the Opensuse devs say they're not happy with their own, 'hacky' solution. And, unless I've missed it, the "right people" simply aren't talking to one another. A "good" solution will need devs -- at least one each -- from KDE, Mozilla/Firefox & Opensuse/other distro devs, to agree that this should get done, and actually talk/work with one another to do so. I've tried to re-start the discussion about getting a good solution to KDE+Firefox integration. https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/firefox-dev/2014-July/001940.html In that thread I received thoughtful/arguable comments from @Mozilla folks, e.g. "... I believe that there is plenty of good will among Mozilla developers to help Firefox + Dolphin along the road (starting with reviewing patches and mentoring newcomers). ... firefox-dev and bugs are as good a place as any to start. ..." They certainly seem willing to work with KDE & others -- but it will NOT happen alone. So, if "you" are still interested in good/solid KDE+Firefox integration -- pls start by subscribing to "firexfox-dev" mailing list (https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev) and consolidating communication to THIS thread: "Firefox + KDE integration: Getting FF to use Dolphin reliably. 12+ years and counting." https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/firefox-dev/2014-July/001940.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory-mozilla+owner@opensuse.org
I haven't read all the linked bug reports or how previous attempts of integration were done, but it seems to me this is mostly about user preferences regarding default applications, correct? I am asking because this is not something KDE specific anymore, there is a cross-desktop specification covering this: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/mime-apps-spec/ Cheers, Kevin On Monday, 2014-07-07, 15:55:55, grantksupport@operamail.com wrote:
(1) I hear & acknowledge your points. (2) It's proving challenging for me to not have it come across as 'Linux is insignificant, why should we bother'. I'm trying, but ... (3) Superior #s do not make a superior species. Take cockroaches vs. people, e.g. Tho, it's arguable ...
And truly, with due respect, and intent to simply provide ... feedback and some incentive ... perhaps if Mozilla was a bit more openly cooperative users other than just/primarilyFirefox-on-Windows-desktop, then perhaps there'd be more of those users, no? Spend some time *in* KDE community -- users are giving up on Firefox, with a giant 'Meh'. "Here", we're an enterprise shop that uses Linux on the Desktop, as are some other, rather significant companies. We'd use Mozilla products much more widely if issues like this languishing bug that causes all sorts of confusion for our users, and is easily fixed by siwtching to Chrome across the company, didn't exist. (We won't talk at all about the abandonment of unfinished Thunderbird ... that stung us badly, and still does; guessing we're not alone).
From *our* perspective, which I certainly recognize is different than yours, KDE & Linux are much broader reaching, enterprise imperatives for a company like us, and our users, than "which browser" we use. Particularly with one or more serious alternatives available.
A point to keep in mind is that - there's a community of users who DO want this fixed, including an Opensuse developer who HAS a (hacky) fix - and that the common thread has been, if not is, that -- just can't get any interest at Mozilla. Tought to fix the problem in Mozilla product when there's noone willing to talk AT Mozilla.
Or, if what you say is true, and continues to be, that KDE support -- and perhaps Linux, too -- is not a priority, then a clear statement of those missing-priorities would be certainly helpful. If only get 'us' to stop wingeing and focus our minority interest and limited resources elsewhere.
That said, there should probably be a discussion ...
If that's an invitation to the outside world -- Linux & KDE to enter into discussion, great. Provide the name of a point person @ Mozilla and a willingness to have 'this' talk, and I'll do my part to see if I can make some connections.
Thanks!
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014, at 01:13 PM, Justin Dolske wrote:
On 7/3/14 1:44 PM, grantksupport@operamail.com wrote:
There are LOTS of users that use Firefox on Linux in a KDE environment.
Keep in mind this is is a very relative number -- _All_ Linux usage represents about 3% of Firefox usage. We have 7x more _Windows XP_ users.
It's been reported as a bug in Firefox 12+ years ago & has spawned multiple other bugs.
KDE support hasn't been a priority for Mozilla, nor is it currently a priority. Getting better support for KDE into Firefox will need to be an effort driven and sustained by the KDE community.
There's a fix/workaround in Opensuse (pkg: mozilla-kde4-integration; https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?project=openSUSE%3AFactory&packa ge=mozilla-kde4-integration), although it's not been accepted in current state @Firefox for upstream inclusion.
Afaict, discussion & activity are basically dead.
It appears that way. Of the bugs you listed, only bug 528598 has any patches (from over a year ago), part of which seems to a forked copy of the biggest piece of browser UI (browser.xul). I'd suggest that if someone in the KDE community is interested in getting fixes upstreamed to Mozilla, the first step will be to break things up into small pieces that can be reviewed and committed individually.
That said, there should probably be a discussion if we even want to accept such patches -- 12 years without significant contributors suggests any KDE code in the Mozilla tree would quickly break/bitrot without someone actively maintaining it.
Justin _______________________________________________ firefox-dev mailing list firefox-dev@mozilla.org https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/firefox-dev -- Kevin Krammer, KDE developer, xdg-utils developer KDE user support, developer mentoring
participants (5)
-
David Rajchenbach-Teller -
grantksupport＠operamail.com -
Kevin Krammer -
Mike de Boer -
Richard Newman