Richard Smedley wrote:

Apparently LXF readers want to know the buying practices of UK educational institutions; their patterns of OS and software use; what pressures they are under; and what budget restrictions; how they are grouped (in a university's case, whether policy is set across depts, or across the entire institution); what's the budget;

That will vary greatly from school to school, particularly when a school has Specialist status in ICT or Business Studies. There are also the issues of devolved budgets - much is strapped up in SLAs and broadband charges. A figure of £XX,000 isn't much use if you don't know the context of the school and what it's priorities for ICT development are over a number of years. Microsoft continue to slash their prices to the education sector, either through Campus agreements or discounted schemes like the Local Government Authority scheme. Under the LGA scheme, copies of MS Office Pro cost less than £40. That's enough of a discount for school management to prefer it over cheaper offerings like Star or OpenOffice.org.

what versions of MS windows and office are still in use?

We use Windows 2000 and XP, along with Microsoft Office 97 and XP. We use plenty of FLOSS on Windows, and have a mostly Linux server room. <snip>

I'm also interested in what needs to be done to change things? Where can influence be exerted? What can individuals do? The example of the BCS's blessing from the above-mentioned thread was very interesting.

I have found that most of the restrictions come from "higher up", the LEA or DfES. Documents and software distributed in Windows-only format (Fisher Family Trust software distributed as MS Access 2000 files, Assessment tracking software for Windows only), websites that only work in IE or that rely on propriatory plugins, the provision of E-learning credits which can only be spent on propriatory software (and most of it not very good software at that). Another example is the compulsory KS3 "online" testing which requires a Windows client machine to run on. QCA are responsible for commissioning this software and it is propriatory software vendor RM who are implementing it. Schools running Linux thin clients have been told to "get Citrix" at the cost of thousands of pounds. The backend for these tests are either Windows 2000 Server, Windows 2003 Server or RHEL4. So there's no option to run it on a SUSE or Debian or anyone other flavour. Sure, there are issues of support from their perspective, but it requires outlay on behalf of the school. Bringing a network up to meet the specification could set schools back £50k. The large bodies assume the availability of Windows and don't really work to be all inclusive. Until this is changed, FLOSS in education will continue to struggle - and I really think legislation is needed to enforce it. HTH, Tony

On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 20:40 +0100, garry saddington wrote:

...

Another example is the compulsory KS3 "online" testing which requires a Windows client machine to run on. QCA are responsible for commissioning this software and it is propriatory software vendor RM who are implementing it. Schools running Linux thin clients have been told to "get Citrix" at the cost of thousands of pounds.

They have not told me - yet.

Interestingly the server software for the KS3 online testing is written on top of tomcat and postgresql, however we have been told that the Linux server has been scraped now -- Tim Fletcher Learning Technologies Manager - Parrs Wood High School

On Thursday 13 April 2006 08:39, Paul Taylor wrote:

On Wednesday 12 April 2006 23:12, Tim Fletcher wrote:

...

On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 20:40 +0100, garry saddington wrote:

...

...

Another example is the compulsory KS3 "online" testing which requires a Windows client machine to run on. QCA are responsible for commissioning this software and it is propriatory software vendor RM who are implementing it. Schools running Linux thin clients have been told to "get Citrix" at the cost of thousands of pounds.

They have not told me - yet.

Interestingly the server software for the KS3 online testing is written on top of tomcat and postgresql, however we have been told that the Linux server has been scraped now

Are you sure about that Tim? I have just set up the Redhat version at my school that was provided by RM with reasonably good documentation. I set it up just before the holidays and left the technicians to get it going over the holidays so don't know how well it is doing.

I had a long chat with the RM team about three weeks ago. It was still up and running then, however it will only run on Redhat.

Paul

...

-- Tim Fletcher Learning Technologies Manager - Parrs Wood High School

-- Regards Andy Trevor Technical Director Cutter Project Limited -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

Ian Lynch wrote:

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 09:03 +0100, Andy Trevor wrote:

...

I had a long chat with the RM team about three weeks ago. It was still up and running then, however it will only run on Redhat.

Why specifically? It would be interesting to know what the specific dependencies are because if they are simply lack of sensible planning for open standards it needs highlighting. Or is it just its only guaranteed to run on RH?

The installer is generic - reading through it says : ##### not yet properly tested in SUSE or Debian ##### Though it would probably work with some tweaking. There are also other generic instructions in the readme for fedora etc. I don't see a problem with RM only supporting RHEL - There are so many distros around they couldn't support them all.

I was under the impression there were more general problems and a Windows server was required or a Citrix connection to a windows server. It would be useful to get accurate facts on this for dealings with BECTA.

Correct. A windows terminal server is required to run the KS3 software 'on' linux. The application so far only runs on windows. RM are selling it as cross-platform -it isn't.

...

...

I had a long chat with the RM team about three weeks ago. It was still up and running then, however it will only run on Redhat.

Why specifically? It would be interesting to know what the specific dependencies are because if they are simply lack of sensible planning for open standards it needs highlighting. Or is it just its only guaranteed to run on RH?

The installer is generic - reading through it says : ##### not yet properly tested in SUSE or Debian ##### Though it would probably work with some tweaking. There are also other generic instructions in the readme for fedora etc. I don't see a problem with RM only supporting RHEL - There are so many distros around they couldn't support them all.

Why can't they support them all? Multiplatform technology is not rocket science, just common sense. I am writing Apache/PHP/MySQL applications that I know transfer seamlessly from my FreeBSD host with Konqueror clients to Windows hosts with IE clients. -- Christopher Dawkins Garnetts Corner, Braintree Road, Felsted, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3DS cchd@pjcd.org 07816 821659 01371 821076

On Thursday 13 April 2006 12:22, Tim Fletcher wrote:

On Thu, 2006-04-13 at 08:39 +0100, Paul Taylor wrote:

...

On Wednesday 12 April 2006 23:12, Tim Fletcher wrote:

...

On Wed, 2006-04-12 at 20:40 +0100, garry saddington wrote:

...

...

Another example is the compulsory KS3 "online" testing which requires a Windows client machine to run on. QCA are responsible for commissioning this software and it is propriatory software vendor RM who are implementing it. Schools running Linux thin clients have been told to "get Citrix" at the cost of thousands of pounds.

They have not told me - yet.

Interestingly the server software for the KS3 online testing is written on top of tomcat and postgresql, however we have been told that the Linux server has been scraped now

Are you sure about that Tim? I have just set up the Redhat version at my school that was provided by RM with reasonably good documentation. I set it up just before the holidays and left the technicians to get it going over the holidays so don't know how well it is doing.

We where told in no uncertain terms by the RM helpline that the RedHat version of the server would never see the light of day and that we couldn't use it

As I said, we got the pack (which included ES4 and the software etc.) and all the documentation and for RM it is actually quite good. The installation was fairly straight forward. It installs a Tomcat and Postgresql combination and Java to interface with the desktop machines. When I left school at the end of last term I had it running on a server and we were just waiting for the on-line registration to complete so that we could try the tests. This link says that they are supporting it: http://www.rm.com/qca/mainpage.asp?contentref=qcap179065 HTH Paul

-- Tim Fletcher Learning Technologies Manager - Parrs Wood High School

On Thursday 13 April 2006 17:29, Tony Whitmore wrote:

Paul Taylor wrote:

...

As I said, we got the pack (which included ES4 and the software etc.) and all the documentation and for RM it is actually quite good. The installation was fairly straight forward. It installs a Tomcat and Postgresql combination and Java to interface with the desktop machines.

Can you clarify, Paul - "the pack (which included ES4 and the software etc.)". Does this mean that RM are supplying RHEL for schools who don't have a suitable Windows server?

I'll check with the network manager but I'm sure he said he got a full copy of ES4 for 36 quid. I'll e-mail you when I find out for sure.

Tony

--- Richard Smedley wrote:

Ah - thanks for that. The situation seems quite depressing :-( When my contemporaries went off to college, *nix was the default choice. What subject are you reading, and at which university?

I am reading [1] Software Engineering, at Southampton Solent University. I am in my final year, thank God.

Apparently LXF readers want to know the buying practices of UK educational institutions; their patterns of OS and software

I'd be interested to know where and how such ""information"" is sourced and collated, as I fail to believe that to be their primary interest.

use; what pressures they are under; and what budget restrictions; how they are grouped (in a university's case, whether policy is set across depts, or across the entire institution); what's the budget; what versions of MS windows and office are still in use?

I can only speak for the Faculty of Technology. Within that department, there is a number of courses (which oddly enough somehow includes fashion-related course --- don't ask) that are predominently IT-based. Of course, the de fact o OS is MS-Window 2000+ (i.e. 2000 is the minimum, with a majority of the computers running XP where the spec of the PC is enough to handle it). Campus-wide policy is held such that all staff PCs and student PCs will run a windows OS, because external examiner guidelines as well as lecturer's preferences are to use MS-products --- for no other reason that that's what they were "trained" and used to using. But the Faculty of Technology is different in that they do to an extent operate a small subset of the campus network in isolation from it. This has come to be my "home" for the past five years that I have been unlucky enough to be in further/higher/whatever the hell they call it nowadays education. It acts like any other computer in that you wouldn't realise it was separate. All the computer labs have modern PCs running XP, etc. The reason that was done was so that programming languages could be taught up there, specialist software with minimal site-licenses could be used up there, etc. But it is still a very MS-dominant University. A former lecturer (who has now left, alas) and I, were looking into setting up and distributing a VNC-server <--> VNC-clinet infrastucture within this subset. That's still pending -- the results of which were demoed to the BCS at a meeting in October of last year. It looks promising, and it's about *time*. Budget wise...hmm. I couldn't say. What I do know is that each faculty has an injected sum of money per year, and then they have to "bid" for various things, such as PC equipment, etc. I think the Faculty of Technology is releasing two things: 1. That Linux is a consideration for prospective students joining the University. 2. The costs of its use within education as a teaching aid, etc., is a serious viable alternative. I'll ignore point 1., as that's something this list (inculding myself) have covered to death in the past. Point two however is self-explanatory. A report by the vice-chancellor of the University, stated that Linux is being "looked into" (as of last year) to see where it could be used. Open Office is now installed on all PCs around the University -- the first precedented FOSS application to be in wide-spread use, if the student so wishes to use it -- the stronghold, alas, is still with MS-office. But allowing student to see, or use Linux would be an advantage. The government is wanting more and more people to buy into IT as a career. It would be nice if those at University could use it -- or at least see it, to say that have.

I'm also interested in what needs to be done to change things?

Slapping the government around with a wet fish ought to do it. There's not a lot you _can_ do to change things. What is it you're wanting to change, exactly? People don't _like_ change, Richard. They react badly to it; treat it with disdain and contempt. Seemingly switching over to Linux, albeit gradual or otherwise is almost always going to annoy people, such that they'll see it as a ramned-down-your-throat alternative to Microsoft. Whilst having one or two schools doing 'interesting' things is a nice thing to do -- do you really think that's going to change much? Sure, there's the argument of: If you don't try, you'll never know, etc., etc. But ultimately there needs to be more ralling at the Council level (if you're talking about compulsory education) or God only knows where for higher education.

Where can influence be exerted? What can individuals do?

See above.

The example of the BCS's blessing from the above-mentioned thread was very interesting.

That still stands. -- Thomas Adam ___________________________________________________________ 24 FIFA World Cup tickets to be won with Yahoo! Mail http://uk.mail.yahoo.com

--- Richard Smedley wrote:

Sorry - that was subtle sarcasm at the person who commissioned the article. As he isn't subscribed to the list, perhaps I should have begun the sentence "my commission demands that I write about...."

I see. Well, he isn't missing much by not being here; if he has asked someone else to write this up. If he was that interested he would have done so already, I'm sure.

As to what LXF readers want to read about, I imagine that this list contains a fair cross section of Linux SomethingOrOther readers, though admittedly with far more knowledge of FOSS in education ;-)

Well indeed. It just seems a rather specific topic as opposed to the usual rabble most linux magazines print such as "Move Player of the Week" sort of thing. I can well imagine _some_ people might find Linux in education interesting, but I wouldn't have thought the minutiae interested them as much as to say: "Yes, Linux is being used (to an extent) in some schools". Doubtless though whatever you come up with is going to be fairly-well representative.

Reader interests in FOSS use in particular industries tend to be 1. technical (geek) 2. political - why choose Free vs proprietary 3. practical - what worked and what didn't

I don't doubt that, but it's selective purely to the people that both read and purchase this particular edition. Still, can but try.

I'm sure the magazines are interested in hearing more about what readers _actually_ want - at least in theory ;)

I wouldn't presume to tell them, or even try to. I don't read LXF.

At least, if that was the reason, they can be re-trained :-/

Not likely. Have you any idea of the immense scale and cost, not to mention time that would take? You're talking about *academics*. These people have enough to do without retraining. Heck, if you read the news, you'll know most of them have been on daily strikes recently over their pay with respect to their workload. Adding (what I know is conceived as 'unfavourable') additional things like this is only going to buck the whole point and trend of it. I have the fortunate pleasure of working *at* the University in a department there. (I am bound by the Official Secrets Act not to divulge my job, so don't ask). Suffice it to say that there is a limited training scheme in operation that allows those lecturers (and other staff) to undergo some short one-on-one tutorials in MS-Word, etc., for those who want to. The response has been far from great -- and actually the unofficial campus-wide "policy" is that most of the students are assumed to know something, if not everything about Office. You can't just uphaul and retrain people like this. There's a pecking-order involved in it. For instance, there's a training scheme in operation at the moment for an in-house project that has gone campus-wide for all staff. Some of the colleagues I work with have *still* to get training on how to use it, even though they're the people who use it on a daily basis. The red-tape of this organisation is such that nothing ever gets done, and I suspect behind-the-scenes, other Universities experience this. I am not saying it's not possible, but there is never going to be an easy solution to buck the trend away from Microsoft. Not even in split-retraining can this be reachieved. Not easily.

...

But the Faculty of Technology is different in that they do to an extent [snip] etc. But it is still a very MS-dominant University.

Well, many are - but by no means all. And all seem to have some FOSS. In fact I bet Southampton are running /some/ Free Software (eg Exim) somewhere.

They are on the backend of things. They also run Squid on RH servers (I should know, I helped them with a few things in the past concerning it). But that's all very well (and probably expected), but it's not pushing out to where the real people would benefit from it: the students. There is one room in the entire University which has about eight machines with dual-boot functionality to RH Linux. But these are reserved for post-graduate studies where Masters' students learn LaTeX via it in (shudder) EMACS. That's a positive thing, but limited.

...

From speaking to OSS-Watch, it seems that there's a lot to feel reasonably cheerful about :)

Oh?

And as Ian Lynch says elsewhere in this thread, change is a slow process, but it is happening. :-)

Yes, I am aware of that. I am not as naive to assume it isn't, but when you see just how much resistance there is behind the scenes to even *small* things like this, it does get a little disheartening. There are other things to consider. From what I have seen, many schools have their own little projects that seem to be working. I have spoken to a number of people on this list individually (as many of them are sysadmins for schools), and it does seem as though there are numerous success stories. One school inparticular has done wonders both in Linux's use behind the scene, and for the students. What needs to be done is for some unity amongst schools to happen. I know this is being done slowly, and for that I am greatful. It's all very well potentially looking at Linux's use in higher education (University level), but if Linux is to have any impact at all on people, I would surmise it needs to be one at the Primary and Secondary stages of education. (And to this end I know things are happening to try and get that to be the case).

Awareness of FOSS is spreading even to the trailing edge ;-)

Uh huh.

People don't like change for change's sake - the process must be managed properly. In my day job (in the voluntary sector) training is the key part of our successful implementations :-)

The ivory towerists here, would disagree.

Indeed - although BECTa have yet to reply to m questions, and BECTa's website is lamentable when it comes to mentioning FOSS solutions, it seems that BECTa are actually quite taken with FOSS - I hope we see some practical fall-out from this interest soon, but I won't hold my breath, just in case ;-)

Well, do keep us posted as to this.

Thank you for all of your input, Thomas. Nice to see the traffic on this list, too :)

You're welcome, and I agree. Of all the mailing-lists I am on (and have been on) this is one of them where I genuinely feel as though I make a difference. -- Thomas Adam ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com

--- Tony Whitmore wrote:

If your view of Linux magazines is that they are all "Move [sic] Player of the Week" articles, then you obviously haven't read any of them for

Not at all. But from the ones I have read, this seems to be quite popular. And why not? It's informative to a wide-range of people.

some time. In addition to the more run-of-the-mill group roundups, reviews and news, there are tutorials, interviews and discussion articles, as well as run-downs on new technologies (like SOLID). If this isn't heavyweight enough for you, then the more indepth and even philosophical articles of Linux User & Developer might be more your cup of tea.

I wouldn't have said heavy-weight was my "cup of tea" either, but I'll just have to have a more indepth look, I suppose. The last Linux User & Developer issue I read (from last year sometime I suppose) didn't seem that bad, but the actual content seemed a little lacking in comparision to the other Linux magazines available. This might have changed since then, of course. Thanks anyway. Thomas. ___________________________________________________________ Introducing the new Yahoo! Answers Beta – A new place to get answers to your questions – Try it http://uk.answers.yahoo.com