I think the last few posts have been indicative of the kinds of things we in the IT sector have to put up with *because* of the MCSE. Let me clarify what I mean: when I started in IT I worked in a local technical college for £9500 per year, for sometimes 60 hours a week. I liked the job, but the financial strain was too much Of course the network manager at the time was on £17500 a year, and only got the job because he had...guess what...an MCP! What annoyed me more than anything was the fact that he used Microsoft software on the LAN, not because it was better, but because it was part of his next MCP test. It was one big lab to him! As it happens, I had to leave; he is still there, and now has three MCPs and a CCNA--still earning the same amount. He didn't know how to build PCs, couldn't do even basic scripting, didn't know HTML, and had to get me to install Windows NT Workstation 4 for him to test it for wider use. I had to call MS support for him many times, and he wouldn't entertain Linux at all...he didn't know computers, he knew MS. I have considered an MCSE in the past just to get a job in IT, but I literally *hate* MS software I am an open source believer, and always will be. I would really love to take RHCE, but don't think I have the depth of knowledge to do it--otherwise I'd be in there slogging my guts out! There are alternatives to MCSEs, and yet businesses need that sort of knowledge because MS have built up a whole support industry around that certification. That's why I opted for my HND in Network Support. It covered Office, LANs, Data Comms, Hardware, project Management, Databases, Software Development etc., but I was allowed to use Linux as the OS and even Star Office for the office suite! I used MySQL for databases and Linux for Multi User components of the course....yet that wasn't enough for many employers!? I WILL NOT take an MCSE, MCP, MOUS or other MS certification. I love networking, IT, and the industry, but my goals eventually are on some form of Linux certification. Low pay in that case? Maybe. Self respect? Loads. I know LOTS of MCSEs and MCPs, even CCNAs...its just paper in the end..really...a piece of paper that says "you passed one exam". IT support is a lot more than one exam! MCSEs have weakened the market; not only is the exam deemed easy by its users, but its also seen as a fast track entry into IT and higher pay. Yet that has backfired: now MCSEs are wanted for less than £20000 a year whereas before they were averaging £30000pa. That's the way of the market--such skill, yet so much of them out there with it. It really can't be all that hard then. This only serves to reduce the level of computer knowledge needed to not only obtain one but also support an MS LAN. I have MCSE friends who can't tell the difference between a Northbridge and Southbridge chip inside the PC; they can't tell you what the little brown slots are next to a lot of AGP slots on newer motherboards; they can't fix CDROM drive belts that have come loose; they can't grasp SCSI or whatever...and these examples are real! Enough ranting....you get the picture. You guys just keep up the good work, keep learning, keep adapting and maybe even consider Linux certification--Linux is, after all, the future of IT!!! Paul
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 01 Nov 2001 19:45 pm, Paul Munro wrote:
I think the last few posts have been indicative of the kinds of things we in the IT sector have to put up with *because* of the MCSE. Let me clarify what I mean: when I started in IT I worked in a local technical college for £9500 per year, for sometimes 60 hours a week. I liked the job, but the financial strain was too much Of course the network manager at the time was on £17500 a year, and only got the job because he had...guess what...an MCP!
Although I'm not job hunting now, I will be in a couple of years time when I've finished my degree. I find it annoying, however, that a lot of places that want system/network admins want people who have an MCSE-type exam. Apart from the fact that I never want to do a Microsoft exam (unless it's free ;-), I wouldn't be able to afford it. This would then prevent me from getting that particular job. I probably have enough knowledge to do quite a few of the various courses like A+ certifications, etc., just not the money. Still, if companies want to require a piece of paper for a job, rather than experience/competence/willingness to learn, maybe they're not worth working for. Remember, MCSE == Must Consult Someone Experienced.
He didn't know how to build PCs, couldn't do even basic scripting, didn't know HTML, and had to get me to install Windows NT Workstation 4 for him to test it for wider use. I had to call MS support for him many times, and he wouldn't entertain Linux at all...he didn't know computers, he knew MS.
Hence MCP - level 1 MS brainwashing :-) You don't need to be able to build computers, or know HTML to become an MCP or MCSE. Knowing HTML isn't even necessary for a sysadmin, although it would help. Anyway, don't all companies that buy PCs buy ready-built, ready-installed Dells? ;-) No need to build or install computers.
I WILL NOT take an MCSE, MCP, MOUS or other MS certification. I love networking, IT, and the industry, but my goals eventually are on some form of Linux certification. Low pay in that case? Maybe. Self respect? Loads. I know LOTS of MCSEs and MCPs, even CCNAs...its just paper in the end..really...a piece of paper that says "you passed one exam". IT support is a lot more than one exam!
It's experience. You get experience by working. You get work by having experience. It's a circle. But you can get into the circle by having a piece of paper with meaningless scribbles on it.
I have MCSE friends who can't tell the difference between a Northbridge and Southbridge chip inside the PC; they can't tell you what the little brown slots are next to a lot of AGP slots on newer motherboards; they can't fix CDROM drive belts that have come loose; they can't grasp SCSI or whatever...and these examples are real!
Again, that comes from experience and a willingness to learn. And just because you can't fix a CD drive belt doesn't mean you shouldn't have a job. Just not a job in fixing CD drives :)
Enough ranting....you get the picture. You guys just keep up the good work, keep learning, keep adapting and maybe even consider Linux certification--Linux is, after all, the future of IT!!!
I'd like to get one. When/if I can afford it, or a company pays for it. P.S. Whoever admins the list - is there any reason why there's no "Reply-To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com" header set? Being a mailing list, it makes sense to me that replies should automatically go back to the list. Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO+GvGpdDUnce+EgsEQLWqgCeMtkaGXEo5ViwhRb48fkATAvoOSgAoIB5 Fg/pEwa/bq8Unlx4CuQVrm68 =/YLR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Thursday 01 November 2001 7:45 pm, Paul Munro wrote: [snip]
MCSEs have weakened the market; not only is the exam deemed easy by its users, but its also seen as a fast track entry into IT and higher pay. Yet that has backfired: now MCSEs are wanted for less than £20000 a year whereas before they were averaging £30000pa. That's the way of the market--such skill, yet so much of them out there with it. It really can't be all that hard then. This only serves to reduce the level of computer knowledge needed to not only obtain one but also support an MS LAN. I have MCSE friends who can't tell the difference between a Northbridge and Southbridge chip inside the PC; they can't tell you what the little brown
And the difference between a Northbridge and a Southbridge chip is?
slots are next to a lot of AGP slots on newer motherboards; they can't fix CDROM drive belts that have come loose; they can't grasp SCSI or whatever...and these examples are real!
And why would you need to know how to fix a CDROM drive belt? That's what maintenance contracts are there for.
Enough ranting....you get the picture. You guys just keep up the good work, keep learning, keep adapting and maybe even consider Linux certification--Linux is, after all, the future of IT!!!
Paul
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you totally, but I've 14 years experience in the trade, and I've never mended a drive belt once, and I still don't know the difference between a Northbridge and a Southbridge chip. Didn't even know they existed. -- Gary Stainburn This email does not contain private or confidential material as it may be snooped on by interested government parties for unknown and undisclosed purposes - Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, 2000
And the difference between a Northbridge and a Southbridge chip is?
The North Bridge is named because it is the connection between the high speed processor bus (200/133/100/66MHz)and the slower AGP (66MHz) and PCI (33MHz) buses. The North Bridge is what the chipset is named after, meaning that, for example, what we call the 440BX chipset is actually derived fromthe fact that the actual North Bridge chip part number for that set is 82443BX. The south bridge is so named because it is the bridge between the PCI bus (33MHz) and the even slower ISA bus (8MHz). Taken from Scott Muellers upgrading and reparing PC's 12 Edition. Where I first learned of them ;) Regards, Robb Bloomfield
participants (4)
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Dan Kolb
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Gary Stainburn
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Paul Munro
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Robb Bloomfield