All good reasons, but... I'm on considerably more than that, but I manage a team of 8, including developers (Delphi, SQL, PHP/DHTML), and provide support to 2500 users directly and 10,000 indirectly over 40 sites. I'm project managing a team to develop a open source school/LEA ERP system (so much more than SIMS...) in partnership with a private company. I also take care of a lot of ICT purchasing decisions - well over £0.5 million in 18 months. The team locally support 250 PCs and 200 laptops and remotely another 200 PCs and 25 laptops. In addition there are 11 servers locally and 4 remote. There is something on the order of 100 different applications, running on 8 operating systems (a combination which would never be allowed in an enterprise). There is a layer 3 switched network (about 600 ports) with gigabit fibre backbone mixed with wireless. We use enterprise level software and hardware to maintain, manage and secure the systems, for example Fluke Network Inspector/Fluke DSP2000SR, Symantec Ghost Enterprise, Norton AV Corporate, Borderware Firewall, Veritas Backup Exec, etc. The point of this mini-CV? Commercially, my experience/skillset is worth £40k+ even in the local government sector, but schools in their current mindset could never pay a non-teacher that sort of money, or anything close. Their unwillingness to pay a non-teacher more than a teacher, coupled with the lack of professional courtesy given by most teachers to other professionals in schools, leads me along with countless other school IT staff to the verge of leaving. If the team here all gave their contractual 30 day notice and moved on to better-paid, better valued, positions, the associated schools would be stuffed. Without the type of handover you would expect in the commercial sector, a new team would be at a complete standstill for 3 months. A new team made up of the people who are likely to respond to an advert for a position at £12k would probably be at a total loss to even maintain the network. A team of people recruited at more realistic salary levels, with appropriate commercial experience would almost certainly not cope with (a) the lack of respect, (b) the lack of knowledgeable users (c) the numbers of users per PC and (d) the number of users trying to circumvent security measures and vandalise equipment. Present company excepted, there are very few experienced and skilled IT professionals in schools, but a large number in industry who cut their teeth (read "broke stuff") in schools before moving on to industry, leaving patched together undocumented systems to be rebroken by the new recruits. School ICT systems cannot become truly better unless developed by knowledgeable people working to a strategy developed by the knowledgeable people in consultation with the teaching staff over long periods of time. Refusing to consider that IT professionals need to be paid reasonably if they are to stay long enough for strategies to be developed, and also treated as the professionals they are (or should be), will result in much money being wasted over and over again. Our money. Commercially I was always against out-sourcing. In education, maybe an out-sourced education ICT support service is the only way. Any takers? Chris Puttick IT Manager Central Manchester City Learning Centre @ Trinity 0161 212 1972/70 -----Original Message----- From: Robb Bloomfield To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Sent: 10/30/01 11:55 AM Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Techies
Bear in mind that this is a private school - in LEA controlled schools you'd be lucky to get 10K for a part time, term time only position, probably requiring you to do much of that work, manage the entire network and run the MIS system!
Just over actually, I'm on £12,000 for 42 weeks. And yes, I do it all (bar SIMS)...
So, I wonder why we do it? Well, it's experience, it pays the rent, and it was an ideal job for a school leaver, who'd already helped run the network as a student.... so a big thanks to the RLS.
Robb
Hi, I lost the original thread to this "techie" e-mail.
From what I can ascertain, there is a job going at a school?
It sounds interesting. I am now at University (just started), on an HND Computing Course. While at Sixth form, I helped to "maintain" the school network (and helped setup two Linux proxy server), under the guiding hand of "Dave Turnbull". Just out of interest, what qualificarions are you looking for, and what OS's are you looking experience in? Regards, Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ____________________________________________________________ Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd.
Hi all,
Can anyone give me some pointers to sites which contain uptodate information
on linux being used in schools? I have found some but they are not that
useful.
kind regards,
rod
Rod McCall
--- Rod McCall
Can anyone give me some pointers to sites which contain uptodate information on linux being used in schools? I have found some but they are not that useful.
There are a fair few. But a lot of them are not that good. I noticed that the Debian Jr website had a section about Linux in schools....I'd check that out. --Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ____________________________________________________________ Nokia Game is on again. Go to http://uk.yahoo.com/nokiagame/ and join the new all media adventure before November 3rd.
Well, there does seem to be a lot of untapped talent here! ==========================================================
This gave us all a jolly laugh.
You need a GSOH to work here. Indeed, you need a GSOH to work anywhere connected with schools and IT.
All of those requirements and yet only offering £10-16K .. is this serious?
Actually 3K to 18K, depending on all sort of things. The other half of the remuneration is provided in the form of green fields and a relaxed country life: for example, here we rarely work more than 16 hours a day or seven days a week.
I know someone with a similar job.. and he earns twice as much.. (while not having quite so broad a job description) ..in addition to accomodation/food etc at the school (which is also residential).
The written job description is a mere fraction of actuality. Did I mention cleaning cough mixture out of floppy drives? ==================================================================
Unfortunately, that is all the Government deems us worthy to receive.....
But here we value you highly. We know you are worth two or three times what we pay.
I too know MCSEs that wouldn't even get out of bed for that :-O Especially given the job description. Maybe you need to have a word with the boss and get a more realistic wage structure going?
MCSE? What's that? What we need is someone who can fix IT problems.
I'm an CCNA working towards a CCNP
We don't have any Cisco kit - no, I'm wrong, we have two Cisco switches we got as a second-hand bargain. We make routers out of old PCs with multiple network cards running FreeBSD.
and have an HND in Network Support, Diploma in PC Repair
All probably useful, if you can fix computers as well.
presently work in a similar position for over 25k.
You are probably worth 40K, which translates to 15K in our currency ... =======================================================
Hi All,
Welcome to the wonderful world of education!
Bear in mind that this is a private school - in LEA controlled schools you'd be lucky to get 10K for a part time, term time only position, probably requiring you to do much of that work, manage the entire network and run the MIS system!
That's part of it, there's more ...
In all probability a schools entire support and admin department probably earns less in a year than your average Headteacher and two deputies.....
and are ten times more vital. Have you ever noticed when any of the SMT are away for a few days?
So, I wonder why we do it?
It's fun, that's why. ==========================================================
Unfortunately, The government is more interested in pandering to (IMHO whinging) teachers problems/wages than that of support and admin staff
A really annoying thing is LEA surveys on computer use which make no sense since they only acknowledge the existence of teachers (and students). But end up counting computers used exclusively by non teaching staff.
IME it's hardly something restricted to central government.
Much more annoying is having to recompile Netcape, Mozilla & Konqueror over and over again to try and get a version that will co-exist with SO 6.0 and Flash & Java, and getting foiled in a different way each time did I say it was fun? ... time to go bang heads against a brick wall ... =============================================================
Problem being though in areas like Carmarthenshire or Pembrokeshire 10-16k is about average if not above average.
But the fields are even greener there, though with 38" of rain here this year maybe we can compete for once.
Pembs council last year were looking for a part time IT bod to work 16 hours a week for 5.5k. The job was taken.
Exploitation! It's rife in Essex too ...
The average wage in these parts is about 120 squid. I totally agree about all industries forgetting to reward their support staff ......
We do provide coffee and tea free. ==================================================================
Well, it's experience, it pays the rent, and it was an ideal job for a school leaver, who'd already helped run the network as a student
That's life, though the rents round here aren't a joke, only the salaries. ==================================================================
Over here in Ireland, we don't HAVE the luxury of Technicians at all!!!
But the fields are even greener! Slainte! ==================================================================
I think it is obvious that a lot of us are either overworked or underpaid,
Both.
its crazy when you think about the "importance" that the world puts on IT or ICT, yet the people carrying and maintaining the good word are very poorly rewarded for it.
True.
The biggest problem is that there is always someone around the corner who will work for the same money with no complaint, so making a stand just doesn't come into it anymore, we all have to eat humble pie and whinge amongst ourselves.
True.
This is wrong
True. ====================================================================
but schools in their current mindset could never pay a non-teacher that sort of money, or anything close.
Yet they pay Microsoft whatever is demanded. This is the most amazing and inexplicable fact of the lot. ===================================================================
I lost the original thread to this "techie" e-mail. From what I can ascertain, there is a job going at a school?
Yes, http://www.felsted.org/ http://www.felsted.org/vacancies/ict.htm http://www.felsted.essex.sch.uk/ (the second is last year's job description, but is still largely valid)
what qualifications are you looking for, and what OS's are you looking for experience in?
None and all, respectively. But we are realistic, so if you don't have a deep knowledge of COTAN on KDF9 machines it probably doesn't matter. =================================================================== -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
Well put Chris - You cheered me up with the excellent summary! I wish you well in you're technician hunting Alan (Bryngwyn) (not in work but at home this time!) Christopher Dawkins wrote:
Well, there does seem to be a lot of untapped talent here! ==========================================================
This gave us all a jolly laugh.
You need a GSOH to work here. Indeed, you need a GSOH to work anywhere connected with schools and IT.
All of those requirements and yet only offering £10-16K .. is this serious?
Actually 3K to 18K, depending on all sort of things. The other half of the remuneration is provided in the form of green fields and a relaxed country life: for example, here we rarely work more than 16 hours a day or seven days a week.
I know someone with a similar job.. and he earns twice as much.. (while not having quite so broad a job description) ..in addition to accomodation/food etc at the school (which is also residential).
The written job description is a mere fraction of actuality. Did I mention cleaning cough mixture out of floppy drives?
==================================================================
Unfortunately, that is all the Government deems us worthy to receive.....
But here we value you highly. We know you are worth two or three times what we pay.
I too know MCSEs that wouldn't even get out of bed for that :-O Especially given the job description. Maybe you need to have a word with the boss and get a more realistic wage structure going?
MCSE? What's that? What we need is someone who can fix IT problems.
I'm an CCNA working towards a CCNP
We don't have any Cisco kit - no, I'm wrong, we have two Cisco switches we got as a second-hand bargain. We make routers out of old PCs with multiple network cards running FreeBSD.
and have an HND in Network Support, Diploma in PC Repair
All probably useful, if you can fix computers as well.
presently work in a similar position for over 25k.
You are probably worth 40K, which translates to 15K in our currency ...
=======================================================
Hi All,
Welcome to the wonderful world of education!
Bear in mind that this is a private school - in LEA controlled schools you'd be lucky to get 10K for a part time, term time only position, probably requiring you to do much of that work, manage the entire network and run the MIS system!
That's part of it, there's more ...
In all probability a schools entire support and admin department probably earns less in a year than your average Headteacher and two deputies.....
and are ten times more vital. Have you ever noticed when any of the SMT are away for a few days?
So, I wonder why we do it?
It's fun, that's why.
==========================================================
Unfortunately, The government is more interested in pandering to (IMHO whinging) teachers problems/wages than that of support and admin staff
A really annoying thing is LEA surveys on computer use which make no sense since they only acknowledge the existence of teachers (and students). But end up counting computers used exclusively by non teaching staff.
IME it's hardly something restricted to central government.
Much more annoying is having to recompile Netcape, Mozilla & Konqueror over and over again to try and get a version that will co-exist with SO 6.0 and Flash & Java, and getting foiled in a different way each time did I say it was fun? ... time to go bang heads against a brick wall ...
=============================================================
Problem being though in areas like Carmarthenshire or Pembrokeshire 10-16k is about average if not above average.
But the fields are even greener there, though with 38" of rain here this year maybe we can compete for once.
Pembs council last year were looking for a part time IT bod to work 16 hours a week for 5.5k. The job was taken.
Exploitation! It's rife in Essex too ...
The average wage in these parts is about 120 squid. I totally agree about all industries forgetting to reward their support staff ......
We do provide coffee and tea free.
==================================================================
Well, it's experience, it pays the rent, and it was an ideal job for a school leaver, who'd already helped run the network as a student
That's life, though the rents round here aren't a joke, only the salaries.
==================================================================
Over here in Ireland, we don't HAVE the luxury of Technicians at all!!!
But the fields are even greener! Slainte!
==================================================================
I think it is obvious that a lot of us are either overworked or underpaid,
Both.
its crazy when you think about the "importance" that the world puts on IT or ICT, yet the people carrying and maintaining the good word are very poorly rewarded for it.
True.
The biggest problem is that there is always someone around the corner who will work for the same money with no complaint, so making a stand just doesn't come into it anymore, we all have to eat humble pie and whinge amongst ourselves.
True.
This is wrong
True.
====================================================================
but schools in their current mindset could never pay a non-teacher that sort of money, or anything close.
Yet they pay Microsoft whatever is demanded. This is the most amazing and inexplicable fact of the lot.
===================================================================
I lost the original thread to this "techie" e-mail. From what I can ascertain, there is a job going at a school?
Yes, http://www.felsted.org/ http://www.felsted.org/vacancies/ict.htm http://www.felsted.essex.sch.uk/
(the second is last year's job description, but is still largely valid)
what qualifications are you looking for, and what OS's are you looking for experience in?
None and all, respectively. But we are realistic, so if you don't have a deep knowledge of COTAN on KDF9 machines it probably doesn't matter.
===================================================================
-- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-820527 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
====================================================================
but schools in their current mindset could never pay a non-teacher that sort of money, or anything close.
Yet they pay Microsoft whatever is demanded. This is the most amazing and inexplicable fact of the lot.
Not just Microsoft, one of our staff has just ordered a piece of software which is nearly 200 pounds per machine. Problem is we are not even sure that it will work on our machines in the first place.
===================================================================
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
i have read the replies on this subject and i have come to the
conclusion that it's true we are underpaid and over worked but on
the other hand the fun with have and some of the benefits like free
computers, granted they are cast off's but i set these up for people
who have nothing and pass them on, it's a great feeling.
i work in one of the departments at leeds uni as a techy, when i
started i got £10,500 i am now on £11,800 after nearly two years
which i think is quite a good rise but i still have to have a second
job to pay the bills and get a bit of spending money which i think is
wrong, but hey what can i do! you shouldn't have to have two jobs
when you are a techy it's just not right or am i wrong in thinking
this?
i have always wanted to work in a school as a techy although most
people tell me that it's a thankless job and i would be better off not,
the only thing is i don't have the qualifications to do much which is
really depressing because i consider myself to be very good as a
techy i may not be too hot on the network side at the moment but
in my last job i ran a novel 3.1 network for 6 months on my own
when the network manager went of on sick! i have experience with
NT workstation/server, novel 3.1/3.12/4.11, dos, windows
3.1/95/98/me/2000 and xp, linux, office 95,97,2000. i also have a
good knowledge in electronics so i do allot of soldering and things
like that. basically i can fix most things that go wrong with a pc.
ok sorry just realized that i went into selling mode then but you get
the idea, i am only 21 which does go against me but i think i get a
rough deal with my pay and workload.
how come everyone asks for mcse's now and things like that, it's
not giving the people without them a fair chance like me, i could
apply for a job now that i know i could do very well and not even be
considered for it because of my qualifications which i think is
wrong, granted i think they have to be taken into account
sometimes but not as much as people are at the moment, what
ever happened to just being able to do the job and getting on with
it, i personally think that people with more qualifications may not
be the best people for the job as sometimes they may be more
interested in bettering them self than bettering the system which
they are supposed to be supporting.
ok enough of my rambling now, i would like to here other people's
views on this, and i don't mean to offend anyone if i have.
cheers
Tom
On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:59, Mark Evans wrote:
From: "Mark Evans"
====================================================================
but schools in their current mindset could never pay a non-teacher that sort of money, or anything close.
Yet they pay Microsoft whatever is demanded. This is the most amazing and inexplicable fact of the lot.
Not just Microsoft, one of our staff has just ordered a piece of software which is nearly 200 pounds per machine. Problem is we are not even sure that it will work on our machines in the first place.
===================================================================
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
+========================================+ Leeds University Business School e-mail: Tom@lubs.leeds.ac.uk ext: 4490 direct line: 0113 2334490 room: 2.20
On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 04:15:00PM -0000, Tom Davison wrote:
i have read the replies on this subject and i have come to the conclusion that it's true we are underpaid and over worked but on the other hand the fun with have and some of the benefits like free computers, granted they are cast off's but i set these up for people who have nothing and pass them on, it's a great feeling.
i work in one of the departments at leeds uni as a techy, when i started i got £10,500 i am now on £11,800 after nearly two years which i think is quite a good rise but i still have to have a second job to pay the bills and get a bit of spending money which i think is wrong, but hey what can i do! you shouldn't have to have two jobs when you are a techy it's just not right or am i wrong in thinking this?
i have always wanted to work in a school as a techy although most people tell me that it's a thankless job and i would be better off not, the only thing is i don't have the qualifications to do much which is really depressing because i consider myself to be very good as a techy i may not be too hot on the network side at the moment but in my last job i ran a novel 3.1 network for 6 months on my own when the network manager went of on sick! i have experience with NT workstation/server, novel 3.1/3.12/4.11, dos, windows 3.1/95/98/me/2000 and xp, linux, office 95,97,2000. i also have a good knowledge in electronics so i do allot of soldering and things like that. basically i can fix most things that go wrong with a pc.
IMO, you'd be best off staying in a university environment but push yourself over to the unix/linux side - there's more money there & you'll enjoy the work more.
ok sorry just realized that i went into selling mode then but you get the idea, i am only 21 which does go against me but i think i get a rough deal with my pay and workload.
Hey, I'm near 40 which really works against me!
how come everyone asks for mcse's now and things like that, it's not giving the people without them a fair chance like me, i could apply for a job now that i know i could do very well and not even be considered for it because of my qualifications which i think is wrong, granted i think they have to be taken into account sometimes but not as much as people are at the moment, what ever happened to just being able to do the job and getting on with it, i personally think that people with more qualifications may not be the best people for the job as sometimes they may be more interested in bettering them self than bettering the system which they are supposed to be supporting.
Forget MCSEs, they're not worth the paper they're written on & anybody who employs you on the basis of having an MCSE is not worth working for. Go for a Diploma/Degree which really count in the education field - the people who interview you will after all have a degree/diploma & they know that they are worth something. I did my Diploma in Computing with the Open University & am now doing my Hons in mathematical sciences & computing. Because I'm doing it part-time it allows me to work also (not that I'm doing much of that ATM :( But with my Diploma I'm looking at jobs where I'd be earning the same as an MCSE - but this is the kicker - I've got the potential to go on and earn a lot more whether it be on the technical or managerial side. After all, I've learnt how to program (in proper languages!) doing my diploma yet if I did an MCSE it wouldn't necessarily mean that I can even mark-up a page of HTML let alone write anything in a platform specific language like VB. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
I did my Diploma in Computing with the Open University & am now doing my Hons in mathematical sciences & computing. Because I'm doing it part-time it allows me to work also (not that I'm doing much of that ATM :(
Wow... which means you did M206 which I've just finished..... and I hope I've passed..... I've actually thinking of Changing my DipComp to a DipIT, as I prefer the courses, but you never know, I mayend up doing both.... As far as the MCSE debate goes, I want one. I have slogged long and hard to learn what I know, and I'd like the paper to say so. I don't agree that MCSE's or MCP's don't know what they're doing. They should know what the learned for the exam, and they aren't as easy as everyone thinks. As far as Linux being the way.... we shall see. I won't start a war, but I've used Linux for a while now, and I'm still not convinced it can compete. This is what i was talking about in my earlier post about specialising. I don't intend to get a job as a Unix admin, so I am concentrating on what I know and love best, which is MS. Linux is a necessary distraction, and a welcome component on the network. But I couldn't work with it alone. Regards, Robb Bloomfield
On Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:41:09AM -0000, Robb Bloomfield wrote:
I did my Diploma in Computing with the Open University & am now doing my Hons in mathematical sciences & computing. Because I'm doing it part-time it allows me to work also (not that I'm doing much of that ATM :(
Wow... which means you did M206 which I've just finished..... and I hope I've passed..... I've actually thinking of Changing my DipComp to a DipIT, as I prefer the courses, but you never know, I mayend up doing both....
M206,T223,M261,M358....etc. M206 gives you a good understanding of OO programming; T223 of C, assembly and architecture; M261 algorithms; M358 relational databases... MCSE gives you? None of the above only a decent indoctrination into `MS-think' and FUD.
As far as the MCSE debate goes, I want one. I have slogged long and hard to learn what I know, and I'd like the paper to say so. I don't agree that MCSE's or MCP's don't know what they're doing. They should know what the learned for the exam, and they aren't as easy as everyone thinks.
IMO the exams for MCSE are little more than parroting a load of `facts' with no requirement of knowing any basic computing principles. Whether it's easy to recall stuff parrot fashion or not is irrelevant as to the net worth of a MCSE/MCP. After all crawling naked across broken glass isn't easy but does that mean it's worth doing? It seems that I'm not the only one who thinks these paid for qualifications run by computer co's are absolutely no indicator of whether the person with the qualification actually knows anything useful. If that's the case, are they worth doing at all? The whole thing is just another money making scam IMO - some more so than others.
As far as Linux being the way.... we shall see. I won't start a war, but I've used Linux for a while now, and I'm still not convinced it can compete.
Compete against what? and where? Why do IBM not agree with you?
This is what i was talking about in my earlier post about specialising. I don't intend to get a job as a Unix admin, so I am concentrating on what I know and love best, which is MS.
Good luck to you - you'll need it ;-)
Linux is a necessary distraction, and a welcome component on the network. But I couldn't work with it alone.
Fair enough but your unix/linux skills will come in useful whatever you decide to do so I hope you carry on developing them. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ The universe is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering. -- Chinese proverb
participants (9)
-
aeh1962 -
Chris Puttick -
Christopher Dawkins -
Frank Shute -
Mark Evans -
Robb Bloomfield -
Rod McCall -
Thomas Adam -
Tom Davison