That will certainly help, but it isn't the only factor. Entrenched views make change difficult and I wouldn't under-estimate the politics. After all, if it

With Windows being very much an entrenched viewpoint...

was just about quality, DOS would never have got off the ground. Linux in schools makes a lot of sense in a variety of situations at the desktop. In fact as a server its a bit of a "no brainer" its just lack of expertise that is slowing things down. At the desktop, it requires a targeting of technologies by application where the most used applications are served by low cost solutions freeing up money for specialist things that might well run on legacy Windows systems (Ok or new ones in some cases). With Star Office and a good web browser you have coverage of what most schools do 80% of the time in IT - I have OFSTEDed enough of them to provide a reliable sample. Most schools have machines that can do many other things but they get tied up with office and web browsing most of the time so the fact that they can run a million and 1 applications isn't actually that useful. Its just simple

Depends some of the other applications do get used fairly regularly, others of them might get a few hours usage a year. Problem is teaching staff can be very attached to certain programs... Some have functionally identical opensource replacements e.g. graph drawing and electronics stuff. But some such as Kudos don't have obvious alternatives. Whilst you can run most things with Win4Lin that costs money. And one notable thing which causes problems is the Thomas Telford GNVQ course, since it requires real player plugins and codecs (Not sure if these will work with Linux and the version of realplayer bundled with the couse dosn't work with Win4Lin because it is direct-X based. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:31:23AM +0000, Mark Evans wrote:

...

<snip>

...

Some have functionally identical opensource replacements e.g. graph drawing and electronics stuff. But some such as Kudos don't have obvious alternatives. Whilst you can run most things with Win4Lin that costs money. And one notable thing which causes problems is the Thomas Telford GNVQ course, since it requires real player plugins and codecs (Not sure if these will work with Linux and the version of realplayer bundled with the couse dosn't work with Win4Lin because it is direct-X based.

I downloaded Realplayer for linux from www.realplay.com(?) the other day and it works nicely under the linux `emulator' in FreeBSD & I suppose it must therefore work well under linux. Whether you can plug it into Mozilla or whatever I've no idea & anyway it probably wouldn't help you much in the situation you describe.

The Thomas Telford stuff comes with two additional files called Plugins.exe and Codecs.exe. Both of which are self extracting zip files which contain a large number of Windows DLL files. Which end up under c:\Program Files\Common Files\real Without these some of the video/audio won't work. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:26:37PM +0000, Roger Whittaker wrote:

There's been an interesting exchange of views and I'd like to take this opportunity to summarise and possibly caricature some of them, and at the same time make some comments.

I'd like to pick up on some of the points you made Roger, as I guess some of them were addressed to me in particular with regards my replies to Robb Broomfield.

1) "This is a technical list and 'political' views are out of place here."

When I set up the list, there was no manifesto - all were welcome to join and talk about whatever interested them. However it was understood that the purpose of the list was connected with Linux and Education. Government policies on software procurement are quite clearly closely related to this purpose and in my view very valid subjects for discussion.

This was my original gripe with Robb's posting. I felt he was trying to stifle debate in what IMO is an important area.

2) "Microsoft is totally and uniquely evil: anyone who says anything remotely favourable about Microsoft is equally evil and should be flamed, strung-up, shot, expelled from the list etc."

This has never been my position. Personally I think Microsoft makes some good desktop software (e.g. Excel) and some appallingly bad operating systems.

However, Microsoft's business practices have been and continue to be seriously worrying to anyone who values fairness and decency in business. Linux is uniquely threatening to Microsoft because it is hard to see how their traditional weapons ("embrace and extend", "buy out and incorporate") can be applied to fighting against it. It is because of this that people who value Linux have to be on their guard against some novel and disturbing developments such as attempts to use the law in the US against open source software as such.

My position is that Microsoft are gangsters and criminals and people shouldn't do business with them if they can possibly help it. I'm afraid they're my views and they're honestly held.

On the other hand, anyone who wants to make points about the superiority of open source software, the iniquity of Microsoft's business practices (and much else) would be well advised to read the Advocacy-Howto. Telling someone who has not had the information or the time to think things through to a logical conclusion that he is an idiot, in the pay of a particular company, or deliberately trying to create dissent is not the best way of winning him round to your point of view.

My apologies to Robb for suggesting that he might have some sort of `relationship' with Microsoft - the suggestion is of course in hindsight ludicrous. I tend to have a bit of a short fuse about this particular matter and I hope Robb didn't feel too personally offended by my rather curt and angry postings. I've emailed him and apologised FWIW.

3) "People who don't agree with the majority opinions on this list should get lost - why did they join in the first place if they think x, y or z?"

I felt that Robb was trying to use his continuing subscription to this list as a `big stick' to force his own agenda. My opinion has always been that if you don't like the content of a newsgroup or mailing list then don't subscribe. Or if you don't like a particular persons postings then don't read them but whatever you do don't try to stifle debate.

The list is failing in its purpose if it is not

a) inclusive of all who want to join, lurk, contribute or argue, whatever their opinions.

b) aiming through dialogue and discussion to educate and inform all who participate in it.

Fair enough. Myself, I like to debate the more controversial issues pertaining to linux use - not to cause annoyance to others but to get people to perhaps think about issues that they haven't thought about or to get them to approach issues from another angle. I know that sometimes I can get a bit `over-eager', if I do, just ignore me and I'll drop it.

4) Linux will soon be the only operating system that matters.

This is true and all the rest is ephemeral on any reasonable historical time scale. Linux began in August 1991. In ten years it has come from nowhere to the point where it is the major threat to Microsoft and at the same time moving into the space previously occupied by the commercial forms of Unix. Not to mention the desktop, handhelds, embedded systems and more.

It's historical inevitability that Linux will come to dominate all areas IMO. Linus Torvalds went into some of the reasons why it's so on the kernel mailing list the other day: http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

Please continue to 'have a lot of fun ...'

Try to, and I'll try to lighten up a bit.

There are good reasons to suppose that the 'Bill and Tony show' which I predicted would take place tomorrow has been cancelled precisely because of the leaks to the Register and elsewhere which happened last week. If so, although it may not make a great difference to the outcome in terms of what the Government actually buys in due course, I think it is still something about which we can do just a little bit of 'Rejoice, Rejoice'.

What about the `Alan Milburn, NHS Bigwigs and BG' show? I hope that goes ahead and then we'll hopefully have the unedifying site of Alan Milburn squirming in embarrasment whilst the Chief Software Architect gives them the hard sell :) -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ Eat as much as you like -- just don't swallow it. -- Harry Secombe's diet

This has never been my position. Personally I think Microsoft makes some good desktop software (e.g. Excel) and some appallingly

Problem is that even where the software may be reasonable the single user assumptions (in either application or OS) can let things down a lot.

bad operating systems.

However, Microsoft's business practices have been and continue to be seriously worrying to anyone who values fairness and decency in business. Linux is uniquely threatening to Microsoft because it is hard to see how their traditional weapons ("embrace and extend", "buy out and incorporate") can be applied to fighting against it. It is because of this that people who value Linux have to be on their guard against some novel and disturbing developments such as attempts to use the law in the US against open source software as such.

I don't think that things such as extending copyright and digital rights management are primarily Microsoft attempting to bash open source. (Though if they are offered a weapon they will take it.) They are really the attempts of publishing companies trying to protect a business model which is obsolete. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763