Schools Linux distro
I have been experimenting with a copy of Mandrake that I downloaded from their site a couple of weeks ago. When you install, it gives you a dozen options - network server, network client, games machine, office machine etc etc. I can't say that the server client set-up that I am running on a pair of old K6's is doing that well. I like the potential idea and haven't given up yet. The Sun website is keen to tell us that are releasing Gnome ver 2 and Star Office ver 6 in the Spring. I think Chris's idea is excellent and been toying with the idea of approaching Mandrake about similar myself, anyway. I don't have any experience of Red Hat but they seem to have a good record for corporate support. What are Suse thinking Roger? Not being too negative though, I think, we will probably look to be installing XP because of the number of existing Windows based licences that we have and the resident level of staff training that we possess throughout. I include in this, all the staff nervously working through their NOF courses on their new machines that their spent hard earnt cash upon as well as our gap filling KS3 part timers. Additionally, There are quite a few killer apps that I don't think we could live without and quite a few departments have invested large amounts of budget into resource CD's and windows based curriculum support software. We have been using XP on standalones for a while now. It represents a big move forward and so far is a very solid platform. I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either. Now, start to resist the urge to flame me at this point, please. I am on your side, really. I would love for Linux to succeed at a school level but I don't mind paying Bill Gates if it makes my life easier. If I sweat and work against the flow, upset staff and departments, all I will get for showing the LEA and the Head that we can survive on less money is a budget reduction. Not much incentive really, is it. Pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work and we might find some people prepared to get Linux moving. Chris, you have already said that you are not going to work full time on this. Is anyone? Will a slick system arrive in time for me not to install XP. I have my doubts. If I can help in a small way, though, I am happy to help you.
On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:36:12PM -0000, Bruce Miller wrote:
<snip>
I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either.
I'm not too sure where you get the idea that Sun will monopolise your network. Gnome is GPL (but going to be used by Sun as their standard Solaris desktop), StarOffice is a Sun thing but freely available; OpenOffice on the other hand is GPL AFAIK. NFS was developed by Sun as was Java & they've got a pretty good track record of publishing the specs and allowing others to re-implement. Microsoft on the other hand don't publish specs & don't allow others to re-implement which is why you're now locked-in & your XP network will cost you an arm and a leg in licensing costs and maintenance. I quite understand your desire to go with the flow though, not upset the apple-cart etc. and spend the budget. I guess we'll just have to keep pressing until our Stalinist Leader T.B wheels out another 10 yr plan with instructions for schools to stop wasting money on proprietary software & use open source. The depressing probability is that they'll do it just to cut the schools budget & not make the money saved available to hire/train people to make best use of the software. Somebody should tell him that 10 yr plans never work. Although I guess he already knows that and really works to a 4 yr plan: re-election at all costs. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ What a misfortune to be a woman! And yet, the worst misfortune is not to understand what a misfortune it is. -- Kierkegaard, 1813-1855.
On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 10:36:12PM -0000, Bruce Miller wrote:
<snip>
I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either.
I'm not too sure where you get the idea that Sun will monopolise your network. Gnome is GPL (but going to be used by Sun as their standard Solaris desktop), StarOffice is a Sun thing but freely available; OpenOffice on the other hand is GPL AFAIK.
Sun's primary business is selling hardware, software is just something they need to throw in to make their hardware work.
NFS was developed by Sun as was Java & they've got a pretty good track record of publishing the specs and allowing others to re-implement.
As was NIS, even though BT forced them to change the name all the files kept their original names :)
Microsoft on the other hand don't publish specs & don't allow others to re-implement which is why you're now locked-in & your XP network
Where they do publish specs they may be incomplete or slanted to migrate something else to Microsoft stuff. e.g. IIRC the specification of the Word format is aimed at being able to produce something word can read, rather than being able to read something Word has written...
will cost you an arm and a leg in licensing costs and maintenance.
I quite understand your desire to go with the flow though, not upset the apple-cart etc. and spend the budget.
I guess we'll just have to keep pressing until our Stalinist Leader T.B wheels out another 10 yr plan with instructions for schools to
He's probably too busy planning his next trip somewhere else in the world...
stop wasting money on proprietary software & use open source.
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
This is flame free Bruce :)
--- Bruce Miller
I have been experimenting with a copy of Mandrake that I downloaded from their site a couple of weeks ago. When you install, it gives you a dozen options - network server, network client, games machine, office machine etc etc.
I can't say that the server client set-up that I am running on a pair of old K6's is doing that well. I like the potential idea and haven't given up yet. The Sun website is keen to tell us that are releasing Gnome ver 2 and Star Office ver 6 in the Spring.
Hmm. But you wouldn't try XP on a couple of old dodgy boxes and XPect much. Linux _will_ run on an old machine. It will turn a redundant box into a very useful bit of backend kit very happily (router, print server, file server ect). Linux on the desktop, at least in the sense that me and you want, will run on something a little more up to date. I know exactly what you are saying, BUT I no longer have a Windows installation at home - which for me is very significant. KDE is _so_ much better than the Windows desktop.
I think Chris's idea is excellent and been toying with the idea of approaching Mandrake about similar myself, anyway. I don't have any experience of Red Hat but they seem to have a good record for corporate support. What are Suse thinking Roger?
(I tried Mandrake, and have come back to RedHat. Mandrake messed me about with it's control centre trying to set up my cable modem. It was probably me, but the whole point of the control centre was that it would be easy. I'm ordering SuSE 7.3 because it has some very strong reviews, and I liked 7.1.)
Not being too negative though, I think, we will probably look to be installing XP because of the number of existing Windows based licences that we have and the resident level of staff training that we possess throughout. I include in this, all the staff nervously working through their NOF courses on their new machines that their spent hard earnt cash upon as well as our gap filling KS3 part timers.
A lot of us are in similar positions. There's no instant fix. Perseverance, and following up ideas such as Chris', or working on projects such as Michael Brown's. I'm locked into RM Connect here - so this discussion could yield some results for me!
Additionally, There are quite a few killer apps that I don't think we could live without and quite a few departments have invested large amounts of budget into resource CD's and windows based curriculum support software. We have been using XP on standalones for a while now. It represents a big move forward and so far is a very solid platform.
I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either.
Fair point. OpenOffice.org is making good progress. That's more exciting than SO6, although SO6 is fairly exciting to be honest. I _really_ like the beta.
Now, start to resist the urge to flame me at this point, please. I am on your side, really. I would love for Linux to succeed at a school level but I don't mind paying Bill Gates if it makes my life easier. If I sweat and work against the flow, upset staff and departments, all I will get for showing the LEA and the Head that we can survive on less money is a budget reduction. Not much incentive really, is it.
Nope. You show them the kit you can get into school on the budget you have. Reallocate. Whiteboards? Boxes? And I like to think I have a choice about software, based on a number of factors. Choice. By your rationalle, you'd buy the most expensive product you could get away with, to get more cash from the budget. That money comes from somewhere (eventually our pockets).
Pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work and we might find some people prepared to get Linux moving.
I know it was a throw away phrase, but to be fair Linux is moving very quickly. If you come away from the linux news for a couple of months, then return, there's been a whole load of significant improvements in the software that we all use. The updates are quite cheap too! The beauty is, that it's _not_ company dependant. It _will_ happen. Chris, you have
already said that you are not going to work full time on this. Is anyone? Will a slick system arrive in time for me not to install XP. I have my doubts.
If you mean Chris' idea - then of course not! Chris has just mentioned it on a mailing list as an idea. If you mean are there any slick distro's, then yes. And they really are slick. Put the latest SuSE, RedHat or Mandrake on a good box.
If I can help in a small way, though, I am happy to help you.
I'm similar - willing to help - but I'm fairly incompetent :)
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Hmm. But you wouldn't try XP on a couple of old dodgy boxes and XPect much. Linux _will_ run on an old machine. It will turn a redundant box into a very useful bit of backend kit very happily (router, print server, file server ect). Linux on the desktop, at least in the sense that me and you want, will run on something a little more up to date. I know exactly what you are saying, BUT I no longer have a Windows installation at home - which for me is very significant. KDE is _so_ much better than the Windows desktop.
We have a Windows 2000 network with a pretty high spec server - dual processors, 512 meg, SCSI RAID etc. As a bit of an experiment we gashed together an AMD 450 with 256 meg using LTSP set up and stuck it on the network using cygwin for a login. The perception was that it was quicker than the main server! Ok lot's of issues about like with like but it just goes to show you can prove just about anything about anything if you want to.
I think Chris's idea is excellent and been toying with the idea of approaching Mandrake about similar myself, anyway. I don't have any experience of Red Hat but they seem to have a good record for corporate support. What are Suse thinking Roger?
(I tried Mandrake, and have come back to RedHat. Mandrake messed me about with it's control centre trying to set up my cable modem.
You must have been unlucky because my NTL conection worked frst time from the basic set up on installation without doing anything in control centre AFAIR. There are some issues with Mandrake but then at least there is a choice!
It was probably me,
Nah, if it doesn't work its the suppliers fault by definition for not making it fool proof :-)
Not being too negative though, I think, we will probably look to be installing XP because of the number of existing Windows based licences that we have and the resident level of staff training that we possess throughout. I include in this, all the staff nervously working through their NOF courses on their new machines that their spent hard earnt cash upon as well as our gap filling KS3 part timers.
A lot of us are in similar positions. There's no instant fix. Perseverance, and following up ideas such as Chris', or working on projects such as Michael Brown's. I'm locked into RM Connect here - so this discussion could yield some results for me!
It doesn't have to be all or nothing. My line of argument goes like this. If Open Source continues to be taken up world wide at the current rate its only a matter of time, therefore those with no experience of it are putting themselves in a very dangerous position (Scare them! MS, RM et. al do it all the time. Its just part of the marketing game) It costs very little to set up a thin client server, put it on the network and give access to those older machines you were going to throw out. Put them in say English and give them Word processing and Internet access which is mainly what they will want. If they would have had nothing this is definitely better. We are not claiming perfection, only improvement.
Additionally, There are quite a few killer apps that I don't think we could live without and quite a few departments have invested large amounts of budget into resource CD's and windows based curriculum support software.
But they already have machines running these so when they are needed you don't want them blocked by kids doing a bit of WP. So you put lots of thin clients around to do the basic WP Internet stuff on Linux and leave the rest to do the other bits. Its bad management practice not to target resources at the applications and there is an opportunity cost in using an expensive machine for a trivial task.
have been using XP on standalones for a while now. It represents a big move forward and so far is a very solid platform.
XP is not so different from 2000 - more expensive and the lower cost versions can't be networked. My advice would be to use 2000 where you need MS stuff.
I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either.
Fair point. OpenOffice.org is making good progress. That's more exciting than SO6, although SO6 is fairly exciting to be honest. I _really_ like the beta.
Even if Sun charge for this it will have to be substantially less expensive than MS Office, in the longer term there is Open Office and with XML and improved filters there will be many free or very low cost alternatives to choose from. The key is breaking the current monopoly.
Now, start to resist the urge to flame me at this point, please. I am on your side, really. I would love for Linux to succeed at a school level but I don't mind paying Bill Gates if it makes my life easier. If I sweat and work against the flow, upset staff and departments, all I will get for showing the LEA and the Head that we can survive on less money is a budget reduction. Not much incentive really, is it.
Look at it the other way round. If you had al your software free and someone came a long and said I have a product that you can buy with loads of strings attached and I'm sure your school will increase your budget to pay for it, would you go for it :-) More like call the menin white coats.
Pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work and we might find some people prepared to get Linux moving.
Commercially for my company Linux is a far better bet than Windows. (We have installed some pretty big Windows 2000 networks) Hopefully it will be a little while before all the others cotton on and we will maintain our competitive advantage ;-) If it was very obvious and easy everyone would have done it, but you get competitive advantage by doing the things others can't or won't.
I know it was a throw away phrase, but to be fair Linux is moving very quickly. If you come away from the linux news for a couple of months, then return, there's been a whole load of significant improvements in the software that we all use. The updates are quite cheap too! The beauty is, that it's _not_ company dependant. It _will_ happen.
Chris, you have
already said that you are not going to work full time on this. Is anyone?
Probably not on that particular project, but on getting Linux at the desktop into schools in general, its pretty full-time for me at present. You don't have to go entirely for one operating system and around 400 secondary schools already use Linux alongside Windows in various capacities. Regards, -- IanL
Ian, what you are saying seems to make good sense to me. For my part, though, I have only managed peer to peer Win98 to Linux via Samba so far. This was a venture into a strange land in itself. Now linking upto an RM/NT domain with global user logins starts to become a different game. I have been reading all the technical posts on this site and thinking that I want to to get stuck into this nightmare like I want a hole in my head! Maybe the way forward that we are looking for is a distro that can autoconnect you to the RM server. The option of easily connecting either OS could keep a lot of people happy and appeals greatly. What do you and people think? Is this possible? Could it be an easier option than a full blown setup like www.bluelinux.org are working on? -----Original Message----- From: Ian [mailto:ian.lynch2@ntlworld.com] Sent: 02 February 2002 11:08 To: SuSe Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Schools Linux distro
Hmm. But you wouldn't try XP on a couple of old dodgy boxes and XPect much. Linux _will_ run on an old machine. It will turn a redundant box into a very useful bit of backend kit very happily (router, print server, file server ect). Linux on the desktop, at least in the sense that me and you want, will run on something a little more up to date. I know exactly what you are saying, BUT I no longer have a Windows installation at home - which for me is very significant. KDE is _so_ much better than the Windows desktop.
We have a Windows 2000 network with a pretty high spec server - dual processors, 512 meg, SCSI RAID etc. As a bit of an experiment we gashed together an AMD 450 with 256 meg using LTSP set up and stuck it on the network using cygwin for a login. The perception was that it was quicker than the main server! Ok lot's of issues about like with like but it just goes to show you can prove just about anything about anything if you want to.
I think Chris's idea is excellent and been toying with the idea of approaching Mandrake about similar myself, anyway. I don't have any experience of Red Hat but they seem to have a good record for corporate support. What are Suse thinking Roger?
(I tried Mandrake, and have come back to RedHat. Mandrake messed me about with it's control centre trying to set up my cable modem.
You must have been unlucky because my NTL conection worked frst time from the basic set up on installation without doing anything in control centre AFAIR. There are some issues with Mandrake but then at least there is a choice!
It was probably me,
Nah, if it doesn't work its the suppliers fault by definition for not making it fool proof :-)
Not being too negative though, I think, we will probably look to be installing XP because of the number of existing Windows based licences that we have and the resident level of staff training that we possess throughout. I include in this, all the staff nervously working through their NOF courses on their new machines that their spent hard earnt cash upon as well as our gap filling KS3 part timers.
A lot of us are in similar positions. There's no instant fix. Perseverance, and following up ideas such as Chris', or working on projects such as Michael Brown's. I'm locked into RM Connect here - so this discussion could yield some results for me!
It doesn't have to be all or nothing. My line of argument goes like this. If Open Source continues to be taken up world wide at the current rate its only a matter of time, therefore those with no experience of it are putting themselves in a very dangerous position (Scare them! MS, RM et. al do it all the time. Its just part of the marketing game) It costs very little to set up a thin client server, put it on the network and give access to those older machines you were going to throw out. Put them in say English and give them Word processing and Internet access which is mainly what they will want. If they would have had nothing this is definitely better. We are not claiming perfection, only improvement.
Additionally, There are quite a few killer apps that I don't think we could live without and quite a few departments have invested large amounts of budget into resource CD's and windows based curriculum support software.
But they already have machines running these so when they are needed you don't want them blocked by kids doing a bit of WP. So you put lots of thin clients around to do the basic WP Internet stuff on Linux and leave the rest to do the other bits. Its bad management practice not to target resources at the applications and there is an opportunity cost in using an expensive machine for a trivial task.
have been using XP on standalones for a while now. It represents a big move forward and so far is a very solid platform.
XP is not so different from 2000 - more expensive and the lower cost versions can't be networked. My advice would be to use 2000 where you need MS stuff.
I have reservations too, about Sun Microsystems making a monoploly of my network and taking over where Microsoft left off either. I wouldn't want to invest curriculum development and good time into possibly buggy and soley office based moves forwards either.
Fair point. OpenOffice.org is making good progress. That's more exciting than SO6, although SO6 is fairly exciting to be honest. I _really_ like the beta.
Even if Sun charge for this it will have to be substantially less expensive than MS Office, in the longer term there is Open Office and with XML and improved filters there will be many free or very low cost alternatives to choose from. The key is breaking the current monopoly.
Now, start to resist the urge to flame me at this point, please. I am on your side, really. I would love for Linux to succeed at a school level but I don't mind paying Bill Gates if it makes my life easier. If I sweat and work against the flow, upset staff and departments, all I will get for showing the LEA and the Head that we can survive on less money is a budget reduction. Not much incentive really, is it.
Look at it the other way round. If you had al your software free and someone came a long and said I have a product that you can buy with loads of strings attached and I'm sure your school will increase your budget to pay for it, would you go for it :-) More like call the menin white coats.
Pay a fair day's wage for a fair day's work and we might find some people prepared to get Linux moving.
Commercially for my company Linux is a far better bet than Windows. (We have installed some pretty big Windows 2000 networks) Hopefully it will be a little while before all the others cotton on and we will maintain our competitive advantage ;-) If it was very obvious and easy everyone would have done it, but you get competitive advantage by doing the things others can't or won't.
I know it was a throw away phrase, but to be fair Linux is moving very quickly. If you come away from the linux news for a couple of months, then return, there's been a whole load of significant improvements in the software that we all use. The updates are quite cheap too! The beauty is, that it's _not_ company dependant. It _will_ happen.
Chris, you have
already said that you are not going to work full time on this. Is anyone?
Probably not on that particular project, but on getting Linux at the desktop into schools in general, its pretty full-time for me at present. You don't have to go entirely for one operating system and around 400 secondary schools already use Linux alongside Windows in various capacities. Regards, -- IanL -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
On Sat, 2 Feb 2002, Bruce Miller wrote:
For my part, though, I have only managed peer to peer Win98 to Linux via Samba so far. This was a venture into a strange land in itself. Now linking upto an RM/NT domain with global user logins starts to become a different game. I have been reading all the technical posts on this site and thinking that I want to to get stuck into this nightmare like I want a hole in my head! Maybe the way forward that we are looking for is a distro that can autoconnect you to the RM server. The option of easily connecting either OS could keep a lot of people happy and appeals greatly. What do you and people think? Is this possible? Could it be an easier option than a full blown setup like www.bluelinux.org are working on?
We have linked up Linux and RM/NT networks before, complete with global user logins. We are planning to build this in as a standard feature at some point. How much interest would there be in some kind of Linux/Windows integration workshop? I'm thinking of a one-day event covering topics like Samba, unified authentication, Cygwin/XFree86, rdesktop etc. Michael
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses. TIA Tim Jones ICT Techniction Manor High School
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 07 Feb 2002 14:11 pm, tjones wrote:
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
PuTTY. 'nuff said. I think it's something like www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty If not, then do a google search for "putty download" and click 'I'm feeling lucky'. Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBPGKMjJdDUnce+EgsEQKBvACgg+09ozTD5xaTm5R02PR4/mHDBo4An1b3 gWhjnvYt/czvuIyLePHzLvnp =OH7b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
http://www.mindbright.se/mindterm/ You'll also need to install the Sun Java runtime -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
www.ssh.com was (is?) free for non commercial, educational use. This is the best one I've tried. Use it here with suse 7.3 no problem m:
Several options but Cygwin is the best IMHO, because it gives you a load of other Linux tools: http://sources.redhat.com/cygwin/ All the best, Nial. At 14:11 07/02/2002 +0000, you wrote:
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
TIA
Tim Jones ICT Techniction Manor High School
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com
Hi, There is a Windows version of OpenSSH (DOS interface) which works well.
it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
Errm??? The protocols that SSH uses are generic and ubiquitous across all the releases of SSH. They are standard. You can have SSH running on SunSPARC OS and it would still work if connecting from a Windows machine for example..... Regards, Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com
"tjones"
Anyone know where i can get a decent /free/ SSH client for windows?? it needs to be compatible with whatever protocals the standard SSH server that comes with SuSE 7.3 Personal uses.
Look here: http://www.freessh.org/windows.html Cheers, Phil. -- Say no to software patents! http://petition.eurolinux.org/ |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND
participants (12)
-
'Frank Shute' -
Bruce Miller -
Dan Kolb -
Ian -
Mark Evans -
Matt Johnson -
Matt Williams -
Michael Brown -
Nial -
Philip Hands -
Thomas Adam -
tjones