Hi, What did I think of BETT? The only open-source was SuSE (thanks Roger) and TurboLinux that I found although I understand I might have missed a stand. Texas Instruments are looking actively at producing a version of their TIinteractive for Linux and IBM via-voice is available in Ameringlish and in the US. They were good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it." So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes. I want to develop an entirely open-source learning environment to demonstrate to the school that we can lose MS products for a great deal of the curriculum, particularly business studies and CDT - any suggestions of good software and, especially, any replacements for SIMS which have at least as much functionality? -- Best wishes, Derek Harding, (BA MIAP) ICT & Network Manager hardingd@warlingham.surrey.sch.uk
hi Derek (et al) i agree with a lot of what Derek says, there was little in the way of Open Source / Linux at BETT, but to add a couple of points:- 1. That much of the learning environment stuff is now web-based and Intel's new Skool solution, developed with Pearson's is entirely web-based (and therefore platform independent). It's flexible enough to be hosted anywhere, school/LEA/ISP. 2. There were a number of Linux-based Internet Appliances, incl the Netpilot (Centerprise/Time) and Inty (Viglen), however general a bit thin on the ground, thinner than previous years. i'd be interested in the process of developing SIMS, Capita's have considered going web-based but are concerned about the user-interface from a browser given the amount of upload required, they even said that it's gone downhill since DOS ! Malcolm ------------------------------- Dr Malcolm Herbert Head of Technology R&D, Becta 02476 847126 Mob: 07801 612438 -------------------------------
-----Original Message----- From: suse-linux-uk-schools-return-1247-malc=ngfl.gov.uk@ns2.SuSE.com [mailto:suse-linux-uk-schools-return-1247-malc=ngfl.gov.uk@ns2.SuSE.com] On Behalf Of Derek Harding Sent: 15 January 2001 08:26 To: SuSe-Linux-UK-Schools Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT comments
Hi, What did I think of BETT?
The only open-source was SuSE (thanks Roger) and TurboLinux that I found although I understand I might have missed a stand. Texas Instruments are looking actively at producing a version of their TIinteractive for Linux and IBM via-voice is available in Ameringlish and in the US. They were good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it."
So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes.
I want to develop an entirely open-source learning environment to demonstrate to the school that we can lose MS products for a great deal of the curriculum, particularly business studies and CDT - any suggestions of good software and, especially, any replacements for SIMS which have at least as much functionality?
-- Best wishes, Derek Harding, (BA MIAP) ICT & Network Manager hardingd@warlingham.surrey.sch.uk
i'd be interested in the process of developing SIMS, Capita's have considered going web-based but are concerned about the user-interface from a browser given the amount of upload required, they even said that it's gone
I'm not sure this makes sense. Since the obvious way to do this is via CGI forms (to an SSL enabled version of Apache, if they have half a brain. But they'd probably think IIS is up to the job.)
downhill since DOS !
Many of our staff would agree with the latter. Whilst the Windows based modules may look nicer they appear to take considerably longer to do anything with. Notably such things as adding new intake and arranging exam cover. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Hi, What did I think of BETT?
The only open-source was SuSE (thanks Roger) and TurboLinux that I found although I understand I might have missed a stand. Texas
Maybe that's why Roger was standing in front with a cuddly Tux :)
Instruments are looking actively at producing a version of their TIinteractive for Linux and IBM via-voice is available in Ameringlish and in the US. They were good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it."
Often a lot of the Windows stuff is a pig to deploy on networks too. i.e. you get told things to the effect of "we don't know what needs changing in C:\WINDOWS to get the program to work, but it's *easy* to just run the install program on every machine". (Let alone such stupidity as programs which need write access to files to be able to open them.) However good the program if it takes literally weeks to get installed then it's rather pointless. Since Linux applications don't have anything like the Windows registry and don't tend to want to overwrite /lib and /usr/lib this kind of hassle is far less likely to happen in the first place. Thus you can simply put the program somewhere on the file server which is shared to all workstations and fully expect it to work. This is possible with a few Windows programs, some more will work if you copy the appropriate DLL's through a login script but the time consuming ones require individual configuration of each workstation. (IME with the latter catagory often the software vendor dosn't have much of a clue about how Windows works in the first place.)
So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes.
That's interesting. When did you ask them this? Since I spoke to them of Thursday complaining about their effectivly forcing the use of Windows NT for the next version of SIMS. The idea that the "S in "SQL" is "standard" appears to be beyond people... (Managed to get them to admit that their being a "Microsoft Solutions Provider" might render them less that impartial.) -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Hi, Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we are a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way...... Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few ideas for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions. 1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why? 2. Using MySQL as the database server. 3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any). 5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved. 7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc. Basically I need as much information as I can get to see if the development of a Linux SIMS package would be a worthwhile venture. I hope that you can help. Regards Tim Woodcock. Technical Director. Fisher CAD Services Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 15 January 2001 09:35 To: hardingd@warlingham.surrey.sch.uk Cc: SuSe-Linux-UK-Schools Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT comments
Hi, What did I think of BETT?
The only open-source was SuSE (thanks Roger) and TurboLinux that I found although I understand I might have missed a stand. Texas
Maybe that's why Roger was standing in front with a cuddly Tux :)
Instruments are looking actively at producing a version of their TIinteractive for Linux and IBM via-voice is available in Ameringlish and in the US. They were good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it."
Often a lot of the Windows stuff is a pig to deploy on networks too. i.e. you get told things to the effect of "we don't know what needs changing in C:\WINDOWS to get the program to work, but it's *easy* to just run the install program on every machine". (Let alone such stupidity as programs which need write access to files to be able to open them.) However good the program if it takes literally weeks to get installed then it's rather pointless. Since Linux applications don't have anything like the Windows registry and don't tend to want to overwrite /lib and /usr/lib this kind of hassle is far less likely to happen in the first place. Thus you can simply put the program somewhere on the file server which is shared to all workstations and fully expect it to work. This is possible with a few Windows programs, some more will work if you copy the appropriate DLL's through a login script but the time consuming ones require individual configuration of each workstation. (IME with the latter catagory often the software vendor dosn't have much of a clue about how Windows works in the first place.)
So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes.
That's interesting. When did you ask them this? Since I spoke to them of Thursday complaining about their effectivly forcing the use of Windows NT for the next version of SIMS. The idea that the "S in "SQL" is "standard" appears to be beyond people... (Managed to get them to admit that their being a "Microsoft Solutions Provider" might render them less that impartial.) -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we
are
a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way......
Are these separate servers? I found the load on our Netscape Proxy (running on NT) very low even when its really busy. Apart from lots of RAM 256MB, a fast SCSI system is installed. Processor load less than 10%, and its not Disk IO bound. The result is that we use it as a multimedia (CD) server as well serving CD images off the separate IDE bus using two UDMA drives in 'RAID' configuration.
Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few
ideas
for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions.
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why? 2. Using MySQL as the database server. 3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any). 5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved. 7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc.
Basically I need as much information as I can get to see if the development of a Linux SIMS package would be a worthwhile venture.
I can't see them rushing to convert to a LINUX platform. We didn't like SIMS - and went for something called Phoenix as well- a company who use an 'standard' database with a 5GL generated front end. They have proved to be very 'flexible' supplier writing extra bits for us. Although like SIMS its a Windows package (completely windows - not just the front end...) we use thin client (CITRIX) to access it from any stations - Acorn, Linux, and PC (without installing it on every PC). Management system thro a browser would seem to the way to go - and could provide staff access to data off-site, assuming the security could be be made tight.
Alan, Thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions: 1. Yes they are separate servers as the school suggested that with the 1:5 student access ratio to be imposed by the government the servers should handle up to 240 workstations (future proofing their investment). As they run Linux they still worked out a lot cheaper than RM (used a lot in Staffordshire). So in answer to your question the proxy is overkill but cost them only £1800 installed and will last for a long time. It handles up to 14 million objects a day and is good for 1200 concurrent users with a 4Mb leased line (or whatever). We have developed a lovely administration interface with rich auditing features. Track thoose violating students live or access the easy to use reports etc. 2. No I don't think that any Windows software developer likes moving to Linux (probably because they find it hard to charge money for software). Pheonix sounds like something we want to develop but with Linux as the Server OS. Regards Tim Woodcock. Technical Director. Fisher CAD Services Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: Alan Davies [mailto:staff.asd@birkenhead.wirral.sch.uk] Sent: 15 January 2001 11:31 To: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT comments
Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we
are
a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way......
Are these separate servers? I found the load on our Netscape Proxy (running on NT) very low even when its really busy. Apart from lots of RAM 256MB, a fast SCSI system is installed. Processor load less than 10%, and its not Disk IO bound. The result is that we use it as a multimedia (CD) server as well serving CD images off the separate IDE bus using two UDMA drives in 'RAID' configuration.
Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few
ideas
for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions.
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why? 2. Using MySQL as the database server. 3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any). 5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved. 7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc.
Basically I need as much information as I can get to see if the development of a Linux SIMS package would be a worthwhile venture.
I can't see them rushing to convert to a LINUX platform. We didn't like SIMS - and went for something called Phoenix as well- a company who use an 'standard' database with a 5GL generated front end. They have proved to be very 'flexible' supplier writing extra bits for us. Although like SIMS its a Windows package (completely windows - not just the front end...) we use thin client (CITRIX) to access it from any stations - Acorn, Linux, and PC (without installing it on every PC). Management system thro a browser would seem to the way to go - and could provide staff access to data off-site, assuming the security could be be made tight.
Thanks for your reply. In answer to your questions:
1. Yes they are separate servers as the school suggested that with the 1:5 student access ratio to be imposed by the government the servers should handle up to 240 workstations (future proofing their investment). As they run Linux they still worked out a lot cheaper than RM (used a lot in
Though you might like to check out what Netcraft has to say about www.rmplc.co.uk Looks like RM might be one of the "we don't support Linux", but use it themselves kind of companies. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:19:11 -0000, you wrote: re proxy:
We have developed a lovely administration interface with rich auditing features. Track thoose violating students live or access the easy to use reports etc.
I'm in the process of setting up a proxy for a local school and am very interested in what you have used / written. Simon.
Hi Simon, Why not call me or give me your number and we can discuss your requirements. My Office Number: 01543 504543 Regards Tim Woodcock. Technical Director. Fisher CAD Services Ltd.
-----Original Message----- From: Simon Kelsall [mailto:simon@kelsall.net] Sent: 15 January 2001 15:04 To: tim@fishercad.co.uk Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT comments
On Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:19:11 -0000, you wrote: re proxy:
We have developed a lovely administration interface with rich auditing features. Track thoose violating students live or access the easy to use reports etc.
I'm in the process of setting up a proxy for a local school and am very interested in what you have used / written.
Simon.
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
Hi,
Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we are a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way......
Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few ideas for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions.
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why?
It had better be one which can do high grade SSL "out of the box", e.g. Konquerer or Opera, the latest version of Netscape, possibly Mozilla (IIRC) no idea about MSIE.
2. Using MySQL as the database server.
Or Postgres...
3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any).
Certainly not more than SIMS costs at present :)
5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved.
This is a major issue, can't see SMC being happy without LEA support
7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc.
Allow the copying of timetables (which, of course, can include chunks of teacher and student databases) to a stand alone machine. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Mark, Thanks for your reply. In answer to your comments:
-----Original Message----- From: Mark Evans [mailto:mpe@st-peters-high.devon.sch.uk] Sent: 15 January 2001 11:35 To: tim@fishercad.co.uk Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools@suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT comments
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
Hi,
Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we are a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way......
Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few ideas for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions.
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why?
It had better be one which can do high grade SSL "out of the box", e.g. Konquerer or Opera, the latest version of Netscape, possibly Mozilla (IIRC) no idea about MSIE.
As a company we run a medium sized Internet server farm, Oooh yes security is an issue but I think our Security Engineers are pretty good so strong cryptography would be "out of the box".
2. Using MySQL as the database server.
Or Postgres...
Yes!
3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any).
Certainly not more than SIMS costs at present :)
5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved.
This is a major issue, can't see SMC being happy without LEA support
How does this work at the moment?
7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc.
Allow the copying of timetables (which, of course, can include chunks of teacher and student databases) to a stand alone machine.
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Regards Tim Woodcock. Technical Director. Fisher CAD Services Ltd.
5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved.
This is a major issue, can't see SMC being happy without LEA support
How does this work at the moment?
Contact the LEA based people, they chase Capita, if necessary. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
Tim,
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why?
Why does everyone assume access would be best through a browser? I know it would be platform independent, but I dont think you could provide the speed or rich user interface that you can through a specialist client side application.
2. Using MySQL as the database server.
For speed, one needs to make as much as possible execute on the server in stored procedures. I thought MySQL does not currently support this. What about Interbase? regards Richard richard@tortoise.demon.co.uk
Didn't get to BETT, I had (real?) work to do!
(Since I'm a bit of a sceptic?) I voted against purchasing SIMs on the
grounds that it was fragmented, spawned it's own sub databases and was
nothing more than a collection of ill fitting modules. It just didn't come
across as very professional (it looked like what it was, written by people
who didn't know what they doing for people who didn't know any better). The
use of the spawned databases meant that we could not update it from our
dolphin (now capita (who now own SIMS!)) database, since any changes in the
sub-databases would be wiped!
In discussion with SIMs (prior to purchase :-) ) they told us that if I
wrote a routine to provide the required output from dolphin then they would
write a routine for the input. As we saw no point in maintaining two
databases. As a boarding school, SIMs was no good for billing (although they
told use that they would have a module soon :-) ). Anyway, we bought SIMs
and guess what, they couldn't support regular updates!
The point to this waffle is that it has evolved from some home-grown beast
that was never thought out. Like so many of it's ilk, it is assumed that the
user will only ever use their product. This produces a product that ties the
user to the company and prevents it's full capability from ever being
reached.
Incidentally I wrote a similar package for one of our feeder schools and I
think it took a couple of weeks in the evening (access/VB), it even has the
ability to handle fingerprints if you want! (the local police HQ were very
interested). But it's written specifically for them. That's easy, The
problem is writing a database that will allow multiple users/sites/schools
as well as i/p from other databases, palmtops (we have a reader and have
never plugged it in!) etc, be fast (I haven't seen any professional software
that's used by professionals that uses browsers), connect to proprietary
reporting software and ODBC, provide professional accounting capabilities
that can be drilled into and reported properly, be expandable, not fall over
every five minutes and be simple enough for teachers to use without knowing
that they are using it (ever tried showing a teacher something new? They
always have a hundred reasons why it doesn't apply to them, and they really
don't have time for this anyway!).
Creating a open-ended, versatile database will be hard enough, but that's
simple when considered against selling anything new into schools (did I say
I was a sceptic?) :-)
So, if your going to do this then first think big, say galactic, then think
bigger, unless of course you're only looking to produce your own money
making rut :-)
Okay, I'm done now.
Adrian
Kind Regards
Adrian Wells
P.S. Please use
adrian-wells@175-nbr.freeserve.co.uk
as the preferred address.
---------------------------------------------------------
Contact me on...
adrian-wells@175-nbr.freeserve.co.uk
adrian.wells@sidcot.org.uk
awells@1way.co.uk
ICQ 10436503
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Woodcock"
Hi,
Intro (a bit of background): I am from a company in Staffordshire and we are a (friendly) Linux provider, developer we have installed Linux into Weston Road High School, Stafford. We have installed 1 fileserver, 1 Multimedia and 1 powerful Proxy Caching Server. Now that's out of the way......
Reason for post: I have spoken to a few people about SIMS and its current situation, it seems that nobody is happy with its installation, fragmented DOS/ Windows interface and its functionality. I have already had a few ideas for improvement from Weston Road and I was wondering if the lovely people on this mailing list could help answer the following questions.
1. Would it be a problem to run SIMS through a web browser. Why? 2. Using MySQL as the database server. 3. Using Linux as the OS. 4. How should it be priced (if any). 5. Can anyone help with the development (not necessarily programming). 6. Which government bodies would be involved. 7. Would there need to be a protocol for things like hand held devices, laptops to dump marking info, register info etc.
Basically I need as much information as I can get to see if the development of a Linux SIMS package would be a worthwhile venture.
I hope that you can help.
Regards
Tim Woodcock. Technical Director. Fisher CAD Services Ltd.
I'd like to take issue if I may, let's be fair!
good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it." That's the commercial world for you only supplying what people ask for! :-)
Often a lot of the Windows stuff is a pig to deploy on networks too. i.e. you get told things to the effect of "we don't know what needs changing in C:\WINDOWS to get the program to work, but it's *easy* to just run the install program on every machine". Yep! you just run setup and off it goes. sometimes you need to restart the computer afterwards. Too easy by far. I suppose that you could write a batch file, as I did on our Novell server, and low, every machine that needed the program to be loaded got it, I only had to switch it on. Wow, that was hard!
(Let alone such stupidity as programs which need write access to files to be able to open them.) That IS silly! :-)
However good the program if it takes literally weeks to get installed then it's rather pointless. Can't fault that, Applix took me weeks to load, then I found I'd waisted my time anyway. So, yep I have to agree there!
Since Linux applications don't have anything like the Windows registry and don't tend to want to overwrite /lib and /usr/lib this kind of hassle is far less likely to happen in the first place. I hated the registry when it appeared, lots of ini files dotted all over the place was much nicer, you knew were you stood! So sticking them all together in /lib is different in what way (other than not having a uniform layout and a natty little editor)?
Thus you can simply put the program somewhere on the file server which is shared to all workstations and fully expect it to work. This is possible with a few Windows programs, some more will work if you copy the appropriate DLL's through a login script but the time consuming ones require individual configuration of each workstation. Surly this is due to the far sighted idea (although it didnt really work out that way in the end) of using DLLs, just a few of them that everyone used for common procedures, instead they became so widly used that they are almost pointless. But don't you need a complete LINUX progam for it to work? There is nothing to stop you compiling a single file program, it's just gives flexibility to software houses.
(IME with the latter catagory often the software vendor dosn't have much of a clue about how Windows works in the first place.) Don't know what IME means but... I bet your wife makes sure that you have a nice crisp white shirt ready to wear every morning and yet has no idea how the washing machine works, what chemicals are in the soap or what that triangle sign in the collar of the shirt really means. The workings SHOULD be transparent, that's progress.
So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes.
That's interesting. When did you ask them this? Since I spoke to them of Thursday complaining about their effectivly forcing the use of Windows NT for the next version of SIMS. The idea that the "S in "SQL" is "standard" appears to be beyond people... (Managed to get them to admit that their being a "Microsoft Solutions Provider" might render them less that impartial.) They also ACTUALLY force one to use NT for mentor3 and capita are very keen on Fox Pro and have no idea what SQL is 'cus they don't use it! Also (by the way), Capita will not support 98 workstations but do support 95! even though they're more stable, and tell customers all sorts of scare stories (we've never had any probs.)
okay that's enough ranting, off to hear my boy read now. Oh, sorry, there was a point, LINUX and windows ARE different, but as far as non technical users are concerned, LINUX has miles to go before it is easy to use, it's moving fast, but still has a way to go.
Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
I'd like to take issue if I may, let's be fair!
good enough to share a corner with SuSE so I suppose we can say they support the concept! So where was Applix even if it does only seem to spell in Ameriglish; the only Corel Office was for 'doze, virtually nothing was web-based and many stands said, "the government don't specify it and none of the schools are asking for it."
That's the commercial world for you only supplying what people ask for! :-)
Or maybe people only ask for something they know a supplier supplys, or suppliers only keep records of equiries of things they supply.
Often a lot of the Windows stuff is a pig to deploy on networks too. i.e. you get told things to the effect of "we don't know what needs changing in C:\WINDOWS to get the program to work, but it's *easy* to just run the install program on every machine". Yep! you just run setup and off it goes. sometimes you need to restart the computer afterwards. Too easy by far. I suppose that you could write a batch file, as I did on our Novell server, and low, every machine that needed the program to be loaded got it, I only had to switch it on. Wow, that was hard!
So how do you get a batch file to supply the user input which SETUP.EXE is now sat there waiting for? The basic assumption of Windows setup programs is that someone, who knows what they are doing, is sat in front of the machine...
(Let alone such stupidity as programs which need write access to files to be able to open them.) That IS silly! :-)
It's a consequence of software producers only testing their software on stand alone machines. Remember that with commercial software, especially where there is some kind of "captive market", quality control isn't high on the list of priorities.
(IME with the latter catagory often the software vendor dosn't have much of a clue about how Windows works in the first place.) Don't know what IME means but... I bet your wife makes sure that you have a nice crisp white shirt ready to
I'm not married, so your bigoted analogy breaks anyway.
wear every morning and yet has no idea how the washing machine works, what chemicals are in the soap or what that triangle sign in the collar of the shirt really means. The workings SHOULD be transparent, that's progress.
A better analogy would be a car (or for that matter washing machine) manufacture who didn't supply service manuals.
So, how about making a point of enquiring loudly if the stands are supporting open-source (they often haven't got a clue!) when some piece of useful software catches your eye? Becta was encouraging in their support for multi-platform approaches but Capita (SIMS/EMS) 1) didn't know what I was talking about and then 2) when someone did they don't expect to make any changes.
That's interesting. When did you ask them this? Since I spoke to them of Thursday complaining about their effectivly forcing the use of Windows NT for the next version of SIMS. The idea that the "S in "SQL" is "standard" appears to be beyond people... (Managed to get them to admit that their being a "Microsoft Solutions Provider" might render them less that impartial.) They also ACTUALLY force one to use NT for mentor3 and capita are very keen on Fox Pro and have no idea what SQL is 'cus they don't use it! Also (by the way), Capita will not support 98 workstations but do support 95! even though they're more stable, and tell customers all sorts of scare stories (we've never had any probs.)
okay that's enough ranting, off to hear my boy read now.
Oh, sorry, there was a point, LINUX and windows ARE different, but as far as non technical users are concerned, LINUX has miles to go before it is easy to use, it's moving fast, but still has a way to go.
So far as *SYSTEM ADMINISTRATORS* are concerned (which is what the original post was about) Windows has light years to go before it is as simple and straightforward as Linux. Even the oft repeated claim about Windows being easier to use, is suspect. Since Windows allows (even expects) non technical users to perform system administration tasks. (As well as doing a great many things which baffle the same people who which it is supposedly "easy to use". e.g. forgetting about network printers at random, remembering old passwords afther they have been changed, spewing up CPU registers in hex, etc.) Whilst Windows might be a good choice for the average, end user administered, "home" machine. Put it on a network with a system administrator and it becomes less than ideal. Indeed abilities such as the easy end user install of software then become a liability. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
participants (8)
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Adrian Wells -
Alan Davies -
Derek Harding -
Malcolm Herbert -
Mark Evans -
richard＠tortoise.demon.co.uk -
Simon Kelsall -
Tim Woodcock