--- Colin McQueen wrote:

Hi

Interesting debate

"Grainge, Derek" wrote:

...

Sadly, programming isn't on the agenda in any part of the national curriculum in UK school - unless you do A-level Computing as opposed to ICT - which means Computing is therefore the preserve of geekdom in schools.

There is a little in the KS3 Strategy sample teaching units 7.6, 8.5 and the year 9 case studies.

When I was in infant school, I did LOGO as a programming exercise. As a result of that, I am now doing a BSC(Hons) Software Engineering. I cannot help but marvel at the end product of how I managed to think about: repeat 4 [fd 90 rt 90]

<snip>

...

National Curriculum and GCSE ICT make me sad in many ways: the former is largely tick-list mentality (can he do bold, can he do italic?)

Absolutely not! Many teachers fall back on this because to nteach and assess capability is harder and needs someone who themselves is capable. But the drive is NOT to tick off skills. As a Key Stage 3 Consultant for Hampshire LEA I can guarauntee you that schools that accept the ICT support available will be coaching ICT staff away from skills tick lists to a greater depth of knowledge and understanding. An example of this can be seen in the push of really understanding the difference between bitmap and vector graphics and the consequences for online learning. Another is in the recent web technologies training that teaches the advantages and disadvantages of using a text editor, word processor and HTML editor for making web pages.

One of the problems here though is that there is no standardising of *how* and what we are taught computer-wise in schools. [..snip shite..] -- Thomas Adam ===== "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net "TAG Editor" -- http://linuxgazette.net ________________________________________________________________________ Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs http://www.yahoo.co.uk/robbiewilliams

--- Paul Hornshaw wrote: > On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 18:07, Thomas Adam wrote:

...

One of the problems here though is that there is no standardising of

*how*

...

and what we are taught computer-wise in schools.

[..snip shite..]

You know, TA, you really are a wonderful advert for Linux.

Such a shame that if I KF you I'll be going against everything that OSS stands for.

KF? MWUAET? (Must We Use Acronyms Each Time?) :) Sorry, it was a bit harsh.... One of things problems you have to realise is that there is a lack of qualified people to adequately teach school children. Most computer-based subjects in schools are centred around the use of MS-Office, why? Because it is supposedly easy. Children are not getting enough exposure to Linux, and it is a shame since Linux is up and coming FAST in the computing world -- some exposure to it would be a good thing for school children. Just a thought... -- Thomas Adam ===== "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net "TAG Editor" -- http://linuxgazette.net ________________________________________________________________________ Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs http://www.yahoo.co.uk/robbiewilliams

On Sunday 30 November 2003 21:56, Paul Hornshaw wrote:

On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 18:07, Thomas Adam wrote:

...

One of the problems here though is that there is no standardising of *how* and what we are taught computer-wise in schools.

[..snip shite..]

You know, TA, you really are a wonderful advert for Linux.

Such a shame that if I KF you I'll be going against everything that OSS stands for.

What does this mean, KF? regards garry

Paul Hornshaw

On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:47:00PM +0000, garry saddington wrote:

On Sunday 30 November 2003 21:56, Paul Hornshaw wrote:

...

On Sun, 2003-11-30 at 18:07, Thomas Adam wrote:

...

One of the problems here though is that there is no standardising of *how* and what we are taught computer-wise in schools.

[..snip shite..]

You know, TA, you really are a wonderful advert for Linux.

Such a shame that if I KF you I'll be going against everything that OSS stands for.

What does this mean, KF?

"Kill File" originally from usenet. Though on some groups you will find alternative synonyms. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

Nothing so far has impressed me here in UK as far as ICT is concerned. Definition of ICT should be revised for schools. On the one hand staff and students use ICT facilities to aid their core subjects. There are many examples of this. In science, there is so called data logging facilities. Without computers they cannot record their data analysis. Should all Physics students learn how to program. Well, I think not. They do however need the necessary skills to use computers, and various software applications. We have secretarial and Business studies. Students doing these courses also need to use various applications to aid their core learning. So the point I am trying to make here is that ICT is just a set of tools and learning to use such tools should be integrated into their core learning. A mechanic cannot repair an engine without tools...which brings me to my second point (or ..on the other hand bit). Currently, most schools in UK appear to be stuck with Microsoft products. Mostly the reasons for this is negative and quite frankly that is how the tax payers money is wasted. A mechanic can pick and choose whatever tools he needs to get the job done and not necessarily the most expensive or elegant tool. Schools however seem to choose the most expensive software tools. Most of the time the argument is that, that is what the standard is in industry. Microsoft does not set standards, they sell goods. In many cases they completely ignore International standards (in my opinion). Not everyone drives BMWs or Mercedes's. Computing, as it was called in the old days should be a branch of ICT as computer studies where students are taught how to program, whether it's web programming, databases, spreadsheets etc. This however does not appear to be the norm as I read all postings here. ICT departments should be lead by people who have through knowledge of all aspects of computing. Currently there are very few such people in schools. It's like having, say a pilot, running the ENT department of a hospital. I know my example is a bit extreme but you get the drift. What can we do to correct this situation....Well, that is the real question, isn't it?? M Gural Network Manager Canon Palmer Catholic School

On Sunday 30 November 2003 20:28, ICT Support Officer wrote:

Nothing so far has impressed me here in UK as far as ICT is concerned. There is little impressing me.

Definition of ICT should be revised for schools. On the one hand staff and students use ICT facilities to aid their core subjects. There are many examples of this. In science, there is so called data logging facilities. Without computers they cannot record their data analysis. Should all Physics students learn how to program. Well, I think not. They do however need the necessary skills to use computers, and various software applications. We have secretarial and Business studies. Students doing these courses also need to use various applications to aid their core learning. So the point I am trying to make here is that ICT is just a set of tools and learning to use such tools should be integrated into their core learning. A mechanic cannot repair an engine without tools...which brings me to my second point (or ..on the other hand bit). Currently, most schools in UK appear to be stuck with Microsoft products. Mostly the reasons for this is negative and quite frankly that is how the tax payers money is wasted. A mechanic can pick and choose whatever tools he needs to get the job done and not necessarily the most expensive or elegant tool. Schools however seem to choose the most expensive software tools. Most of the time the argument is that, that is what the standard is in industry. Microsoft does not set standards, they sell goods. In many cases they completely ignore International standards (in my opinion). Not everyone drives BMWs or Mercedes's.

Computing, as it was called in the old days should be a branch of ICT as computer studies where students are taught how to program, whether it's web programming, databases, spreadsheets etc. This however does not appear to be the norm as I read all postings here. ICT departments should be lead by people who have through knowledge of all aspects of computing. Currently there are very few such people in schools. It's like having, say a pilot, running the ENT department of a hospital. I know my example is a bit extreme but you get the drift.

What can we do to correct this situation....Well, that is the real question, isn't it??

M Gural

Network Manager

Canon Palmer Catholic School

I am an ICT co-ordinator struggling to come to terms with what I am being told is the correct way to teach ICT (by the government - do they know what they are doing). Here is an example from the KS3 sample lessons provided by the DFES. On one page there was a table, it had about 6 rows and 2 columns, it had been constructed in MS Word by drawing the lines in???? I am becoming more and more uneasy with this school ICT thing. It seems to me that the ICT curriculum has been drawn up around the tools that most schools have or can provide. Consequently all we get is MS application focussed modules of work with resources supplied in MS formats (against the policies of the e-Envoy apparently). I was converting the whole KS3 thing to OO but when my teachers began to complain about the banality of it, and with my growing uneasiness about it have stopped. We use Open Source almost exclusively to teach ICT and I have the idea that an alternative Open Source National Curriculum would be a good thing, what do others feel? regards garry

Nothing so far has impressed me here in UK as far as ICT is concerned. Definition of ICT should be revised for schools. On the one hand staff and students use ICT facilities to aid their core subjects. There are many examples of this. In science, there is so called data logging facilities. Without computers they cannot record their data analysis. Should all Physics students learn how to program. Well, I think not. They do however need the necessary skills to use computers, and various software applications. I think that most students are now quite compentent with the use and application of Office type software, be that OO or M$, but they are also growing up with the powerful message that computers are tools for leisure. Whatever else nasty might be said about BG and his evil empire the fact remains that computers are not in schools to help children learn. They are

We have secretarial and Business studies. Students doing these courses also need to use various applications to aid their core learning. So the point I am trying to make here is that ICT is just a set of tools and learning to use such tools should be integrated into their core learning. A mechanic cannot repair an engine without tools...which brings me to my second point (or ..on the other hand bit). Currently, most schools in UK appear to be stuck with Microsoft products. Mostly the reasons for this is negative and quite frankly that is how the tax payers money is wasted. A mechanic can pick and choose whatever tools he needs to get the job done and not necessarily the most expensive or elegant tool. Schools however seem to choose the most expensive software tools. Most of the time the argument is that, that is what the standard is in industry. I disagree with this to some extent. The reason that schools "choose" M$ stuff is because there is little real marketing of anything else. The people who make the decidions are not "expert" in computers and therefore go with

On Sunday 30 Nov 2003 8:28 pm, ICT Support Officer wrote: there to make someone money. They are a commodity, nothing more, nothing less. Learning is merely a useful adjunct to this that some students use and some don't. The one thing that takes up most of my lessons is fighting a rear guard action against on-line games. Students have zero interest in creating another business letter or "project" as it distracts from their games. This reinforces the fact that computers are marketed as games devices and also that the content of the ICT curriculum is dull. the safe bet. When I show my management OO and other open source solutions they smile at me and look nervously at the door. They barely comprehend what M$ does so how can they make reasoned judgements on alternatives. For me, in line with what I said above, the issue is related to money, but not for the usual reasons. My school (I just started there this year so it was not on my watch) has just spent £30,000 or so "up-dating" the school's computers to XP and Office XP. Last week I did a cover lesson for a year 9 physics class. One student pointed out that what he was reading was rubbish. I had to agree but when I flipped to the front of the book I noted that the book was published in 1983! That to me is criminal and throwing endless money at computers is not the solution.

Microsoft does not set standards, they sell goods. In many cases they completely ignore International standards (in my opinion). Not everyone drives BMWs or Mercedes's.

Computing, as it was called in the old days should be a branch of ICT as computer studies where students are taught how to program, whether it's web programming, databases, spreadsheets etc. This however does not appear to be the norm as I read all postings here. ICT departments should be lead by people who have through knowledge of all aspects of computing. This is surely an obvious one. We live in a market economy. I posted a question about some help with a PHP site here and was told the going rate was £70/hour. Very few people would sacrifice that sort of income for the abuse of a classroom and the relatively poor pay it exacts. Currently there are very few such people in schools. It's like having, say a pilot, running the ENT department of a hospital. I know my example is a bit extreme but you get the drift.

What can we do to correct this situation....Well, that is the real question, isn't it??

We correct it I suppose by broadening out this type of forum and engaging people with challenging ideas related to computers. I have introduced many of my students to Linux and it challenge and excites them as it is open. My network manager spends his man hours locking down every little nook and cranny of the network so that students have a sterile environment, how can they possibly think learning about this is good?

M Gural

Network Manager

Canon Palmer Catholic School

Hi ----- Original Message ----- From: "ICT Support Officer" To: "'Colin McQueen'" ; Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 8:28 PM Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Re: Open file formats and idiology

Nothing so far has impressed me here in UK as far as ICT is concerned. Definition of ICT should be revised for schools. On the one hand staff and students use ICT facilities to aid their core subjects. There are many examples of this. In science, there is so called data logging facilities. Without computers they cannot record their data analysis. Should all Physics students learn how to program. Well, I think not. They do however need the necessary skills to use computers, and various software applications. We have secretarial and Business studies. Students doing these courses also need to use various applications to aid their core learning. So the point I am trying to make here is that ICT is just a set of tools and learning to use such tools should be integrated into their core learning. A mechanic cannot repair an engine without tools...which brings me to my second point (or ..on the other hand bit). Currently, most schools in UK appear to be stuck with Microsoft products. Mostly the reasons for this is negative and quite frankly that is how the tax payers money is wasted. A mechanic can pick and choose whatever tools he needs to get the job done and not necessarily the most expensive or elegant tool. Schools however seem to choose the most expensive software tools. Most of the time the argument is that, that is what the standard is in industry. Microsoft does not set standards, they sell goods. In many cases they completely ignore International standards (in my opinion). Not everyone drives BMWs or Mercedes's.

Up to this point I totally agree

Computing, as it was called in the old days should be a branch of ICT as computer studies where students are taught how to program, whether it's web programming, databases, spreadsheets etc.

What do you mean by "web programming"? I doubt very much if Perl (yuck), PHP, Coldfusion. Miva Mia, Python, C, etc CGI is taught in schools. So what are we left with? WYSIWYG, drag and drop, HTML editors like FrontPage. Now that could hardly be described as "web programming". Wordprocessing, Presentations, etc are definitely the realm of Business Studies and/or Secretarial. ICT has absolutely no relationship with Computer Studies, except that a computer may used as a tool.

This however does not appear to be the norm as I read all postings here. ICT departments should be lead by people who have through knowledge of all aspects of computing. Currently there are very few such people in schools. It's like having, say a pilot, running the ENT department of a hospital. I know my example is a bit extreme but you get the drift.

What can we do to correct this situation....Well, that is the real question, isn't it??

M Gural

Network Manager

Canon Palmer Catholic School

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe@suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help@suse.com

Regards John

On Monday 01 December 2003 07:38, Darren Smith wrote:

--snip-

...

What do you mean by "web programming"? I doubt very much if Perl (yuck), PHP, Coldfusion. Miva Mia, Python, C, etc CGI is taught in schools.

Why do you doubt it? I teach PHP and if they kids want to use python or CGI then we have the resources for them to do that. I am getting a little disshearterend by this thread. It seems people have read the nat strat and have misunderstood 2 things.

a) It's not compulsary b) if you do teach it you can teach it a different way.

Agreed but I have two points: a) Can you justify not using the sample materials when Ofsted comes knocking? b) How hard is your ICT advisor pushing the nat strat?

...

So what are we left with? WYSIWYG, drag and drop, HTML editors like FrontPage.

At key stage 3 in the nat strat involves the kids producing a webpage using a text editor.

...

Now that could hardly be described as "web programming". Wordprocessing, Presentations, etc are definitely the realm of Business Studies and/or Secretarial.

Agreed to a large extend. These *tools* take up very little time in my lessons.

However, I am sure that the majority of nat strat teaching does involve these tools and the pupils do not have the advantage of a teacher such as yourself. I think people on the list are suggesting the norm is not what you do.

...

ICT has absolutely no relationship with Computer Studies, except that a computer may used as a tool.

The suggestions seem to me to be pointing to a revival of some sort of computer studies in the nat strat. regards garry

Darren Smith

On 2003-11-30 17:51:46 +0000 Colin McQueen wrote:

Absolutely not! Many teachers fall back on this because to nteach and assess capability is harder and needs someone who themselves is capable. But the drive is NOT to tick off skills. As a Key Stage 3 Consultant for Hampshire LEA I can guarauntee

How can you guarantee that? The "Quality System" that gives most education authority information seems an exercise in creative form-filling for staff. The summary achievement statistics in the league table have become the bottom line. The pressure is to be seen to be fulfilling the skills requirements for the assessment and to be able to defend a position if the target is missed. If there's some miracle cure for tick-list-ism, please describe it. The training you describe sounds helpful, yet detached from teaching and assessment pressures.

the recent web technologies training that teaches the advantages and disadvantages of using a text editor, word processor and HTML editor for making web pages.

HTML is gone. xhtml and CSS are what should be taught now. Why just different editing? Where's format conversion, xml transformations, string templating systems, retemplaters and the other concepts that are really used in the wild today?

...

and the latter purports to create mini software engineers: 15 year olds doing system analysis - get real. They have to start somewhere in learning the vocabularly and process even if they don't have the K+U or maturity to really attempt this.

Excuse my naive opinion of this, but doesn't software engineering basically combine a little computing knowledge with a lot of communication work (should be taught in native language subject lessons) and a design process (should be taught in Art and Design)?

...

Tests like CLAIT and ECDL don't provide any guarantees that those who pass them can use IT effectively. I agree but no qualifications or lessons in ICT guarantees even less.

No qualifications guarantee anything about ability. All they do is take a snapshot of student knowledge and we hope that it's correlated. I don't understand why that is even debated. I think the OP was suggesting that they're distractions from learning.

...

So how do you teach IT? : We should not forget its ICT the communication aspect is vital IMHO.

Communication technology, eh? Do you teach them how to work telephones and faxes properly too? ICT is such a fuzzy cross-subject topic. Who killed computing and gave its time to all these other subjects?

But you're missing out the vital bit. We are pushing that you cannot just assess the quality of the work done but MUST assess the process pupils have gone through.

How do you assess process? Teachers can't be everywhere at once. Are extra assessors used in Hampshire?

...

Knowing which button to press to produce bullets is irrelevant; or should be. So you could theoretically assess ICT via a theory exam only? Q1. Describe the process you would go through to ....

You can theoretically assess computing via a theory exam only.

...

You can do the Times crossword? Can this be taught or is it a function of IQ?

No, you can teach a lot of the skills. Different methods of pattern matching with good English vocab and grammar will go a long way. There's still another aspect to them, though.

When do girls get encouraged to be software engineers?

I have never understood all this sexual discrimination. When do boys get encouraged to be programmers? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

MJ Ray wrote:

On 2003-11-30 17:51:46 +0000 Colin McQueen wrote:

...

Absolutely not! Many teachers fall back on this because to nteach and assess capability is harder and needs someone who themselves is capable. But the drive is NOT to tick off skills. As a Key Stage 3 Consultant for Hampshire LEA I can guarauntee

How can you guarantee that?

I meant guarantee that consultants are working at changing this practise. Don't you applaud the effort? or should we just submit? <snip>

...

the recent web technologies training that teaches the advantages and disadvantages of using a text editor, word processor and HTML editor for making web pages.

HTML is gone. xhtml and CSS are what should be taught now. Why just different editing? Where's format conversion, xml transformations, string templating systems, retemplaters and the other concepts that are really used in the wild today?

ROTFL. Everyone starts somewhere. Anyway CSS ARE in the latest training module for teachers. HTML is not gone. Its still in use. As are RISC OS computers for example. You don't just immediately switch to the latest version in schools that is ridiculous. Who's going to pay to train staff?

...

...

and the latter purports to create mini software engineers: 15 year olds doing system analysis - get real. They have to start somewhere in learning the vocabularly and process even if they don't have the K+U or maturity to really attempt this.

Excuse my naive opinion of this, but doesn't software engineering basically combine a little computing knowledge with a lot of communication work (should be taught in native language subject lessons) and a design process (should be taught in Art and Design)?

Sorry I don't understand your point? Unless its about ICT doing the job of the English teacher. The point is the pupils need somewhere to put this together. Technology teachers are too busy with design and making to deal with the "computer technology" in most cases. English teachers don't have the time to have pupils doing "computing" projects in their lessons. Or may I can't work out what you are saying at all?

...

...

Tests like CLAIT and ECDL don't provide any guarantees that those who pass them can use IT effectively. I agree but no qualifications or lessons in ICT guarantees even less.

No qualifications guarantee anything about ability. All they do is take a snapshot of student knowledge and we hope that it's correlated. I don't understand why that is even debated. I think the OP was suggesting that they're distractions from learning.

...

...

So how do you teach IT? : We should not forget its ICT the communication aspect is vital IMHO.

Communication technology, eh? Do you teach them how to work telephones and faxes properly too? ICT is such a fuzzy cross-subject topic. Who

No because its not about skills but yes I do cover the "appropriateness" of the telephone/fax/email/chat room/letter/signal light etc. etc.

killed computing and gave its time to all these other subjects?

Who was supposed to get trained up enough to teach the use of ICT in their own subject when they barely have time to do their own syllabus?

...

But you're missing out the vital bit. We are pushing that you cannot just assess the quality of the work done but MUST assess the process pupils have gone through.

How do you assess process? Teachers can't be everywhere at once. Are extra assessors used in Hampshire?

You get pupils to annotate the work as they go. You talk to pupils, you target the top and bottom because yopu know the rest are coping at the level of process you are teaching. these are basic teaching skills that we lost because we were so preoccupied with getting pupils one to a computer and giving them time working with applications. Skilling them up. The emphasis now is on them UNDERSTANDING what they are doing so they can transfer skills and develop them faster.

...

...

Knowing which button to press to produce bullets is irrelevant; or should be. So you could theoretically assess ICT via a theory exam only? Q1. Describe the process you would go through to ....

You can theoretically assess computing via a theory exam only.

But where is the fun in that?

...

...

You can do the Times crossword? Can this be taught or is it a function of IQ?

No, you can teach a lot of the skills. Different methods of pattern matching with good English vocab and grammar will go a long way. There's still another aspect to them, though.

...

When do girls get encouraged to be software engineers?

I have never understood all this sexual discrimination. When do boys get encouraged to be programmers?

Dunno but there atre far more male programmers than female. -- Colin McQueen

On 2003-12-01 21:36:11 +0000 Colin McQueen wrote:

I meant guarantee that consultants are working at changing this practise. Don't you applaud the effort? or should we just submit?

I had a relevant fortune cookie from one of my projects today: "Don't tell me how hard you work. Tell me how much you get done." -- James J Ling. Sorry if that's harsh, but I'm pessimistic about mere training being able to overcome the effects of the reporting systems. If we see glowing reports about Hampshire in the future, I will heap you with praise.

ROTFL. Everyone starts somewhere. Anyway CSS ARE in the latest training module for teachers. HTML is not gone. Its still in use.

HTML is obsoleted in favour of xhtml. Today, no-one should teach new learners HTML in the first instance.

You don't just immediately switch to the latest version in schools that is ridiculous. Who's going to pay to train staff?

Who's going to pay to retrain everyone who is taught known-obsolete material? Do you normally continue teaching towards old exam versions because it costs to train staff for the new one?

Sorry I don't understand your point? Unless its about ICT doing the job of the English teacher. The point is the pupils need somewhere to put this together.

Basically, yes. Put it in cross-subject time. It can't be that computing teachers should have a shortage of material to teach in these times in which we live.

...

How do you assess process? Teachers can't be everywhere at once. Are extra assessors used in Hampshire? You get pupils to annotate the work as they go.

Do you give them the benefit of the doubt, or do you refer them when they fail to do this? In the first case, there's pressure from the senior assessors; in the second, the heads criticise the reduced progress. I don't think it's from a loss of basic teaching skills. Although the basic idea ("explain your reasoning") is sound, this does not seem a practical assessment method with declining staff levels.

...

I have never understood all this sexual discrimination. When do boys get encouraged to be programmers? Dunno but there atre far more male programmers than female.

Do you think that social engineering should be done by the education system? -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. Please http://remember.to/edit_messages on lists to be sure I read http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/