RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Costs of RM vs "other" options - advo cating a case for open source?
Essentially - RM provide everything they seem to think they want (though how much they know about what they want is an open question, IYSWIM) and a single point of support.
Sorry, this is not an answer to your question, but a comment on RM et al. You will find a number of schools that swear by RM, and others who have used them and moved on. Reasons for RM: managed support for servers; you can pay for workstation installs; their standard install covers many of the things schools want. (office apps plus internet access and admin tools for example). If you don't have the technical skills in-house this is a very good way to go. (I had better add Viglen as well there, as it also provides similar services to the WIndows schools market) Reasons against RM: you have to do things the RM way, and if you want to do something different you could end up with an inflexible solution. Last time I looked at it, RM wasn't able to support the 100+ CDs we run across our network. They also tweak M$ networking in proprietary ways. Documented? Re your scare story: a long time ago we started with RM. We installed the cabling, they supplied the server and stations. In those days they were happy to sell Novell to schools. Within weeks it was obvious they'd screwed up the server installation, and they had simultaneously made a decision to restrict support to universities, and to stop selling it to schools. The concept of continuing to support what they had already sold eluded them: their Novell people were removed from the schools department. Therefore responses to support calls would take days as I was shuffled round the RM empire. I became pretty expert on Netware 2 and 3 installation as a result. The school also uses a Mentor database from Capita. I know we have logged at least one support call which has not been properly addressed in approx 2 months. The reason I mention this is not to whinge about the companies concerned (all right it was...), but to point out that when you buy a commercial service you cannot take support for granted. And why was this technician allowed to produce his complicated system without documenting it? That sounds like bad management. -- ******************************************************************************** All mail sent and received may be examined to prevent transmission of unacceptable material. Wellington College does not accept responsibility for email contents. Problems to postmaster@wellington-college.berks.sch.uk. Website: http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk ********************************************************************************
An RM story... We went RM big style here (before I arrived - justify, justify). We get 'support' (!) from county. If I ring RM, they say 'erm, no, you're in Herts, we cannot help you'. So I ring Herts (well I've rung them twice in two years). Hmm. A managed service from RM is a _lot_ of money. I listened to them at BETT, and they were talking �10,000 to �18,000 - but that was for a fully managed service. I don't know exactly what you get for that, but I'd want to be a damn happy ICT co-ordinator _all_ year round. RM value?... �99 for a Community Connect licence. *choke* Of course, almost the same again for Office and Publisher licences. *choke* Per box. *choke* I'm not going to go into the 'super value' that is 'WindowBox'. Luckily, we _didn't_ go that way before I arrived. Check out the cost of that stuff. Unbelievable. And, RM assure me that we need it, and tried to make me justify how we covered the curriculum without it - in a meeting, in front of my boss! Not very proffesional now was it. I replied by asking them to justify us spending our money on it, as it was them who wanted our money, not us who wanted there product. Waffle waffle. We said "No, thanks". The community connect licence includes a client access licence for NT, but an NT client access licence isn't anything like �99 for education (is it �11? I think). Putting in 20 boxes? You do the maths on the licences - then, erm, *choke*. Have RM heard of educational rates? Even if folks insist on Windows for a desktop (with a linux file server), then you can grab a Windows 98 licence from your LEA (probably) for maybe �30? (I think? check it out), and put StarOffice 6 on in a month or so (when it comes out) for �150 _site_ licence. Now that sort of money, is at least 'reasonable' on �500 of hardware. At least the proportions (software:hardware) are not completely insane. --- Incidently, the RM stand at BETT mentioned that one of the _big_ advantages of going to XP with there new Connect 3, was the much more reasonable log on times. I pointed out that that clearly implied that the current system they've been selling has unreasonable log on times. "Well," the man explained, "sometimes logons could be slow under certain conditions." I pointed out that those certain conditions were, erm, "the use of, erm, 'TOPICS'!" He half smiled, and nodded. I continued, "We did away with topics two years ago, and we have had 'reasonable' logons ever since." So what other benefits would it give? We never really got round to that. I'm not anti-RM. The hardware is reliable, and at a reasonable cost. The boxes turn up on time, and it's good kit. But, I don't feel I need to say more about what to avoid. -- Matt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/
Essentially - RM provide everything they seem to think they want (though how much they know about what they want is an open question, IYSWIM) and a single point of support.
Sorry, this is not an answer to your question, but a comment on RM et al. You will find a number of schools that swear by RM, and others who have used them and moved on.
Some have been known to swear *at* RM too.
Reasons for RM: managed support for servers; you can pay for workstation installs; their standard install covers many of the things schools want. (office apps plus internet access and admin tools for example). If you don't have the technical skills in-house this is a very good way to go. (I had better add Viglen as well there, as it also provides similar services to the WIndows schools market)
Reasons against RM: you have to do things the RM way, and if you want to do something different you could end up with an inflexible solution. Last
You might also wind up paying for "features" you have no need of, but are part of the standard "solution". This is a critisism I have of many of the NGFL "managed services" they appear more supplier than customer lead.
time I looked at it, RM wasn't able to support the 100+ CDs we run across our network. They also tweak M$ networking in proprietary ways. Documented?
Re your scare story: a long time ago we started with RM. We installed the cabling, they supplied the server and stations. In those days they were happy to sell Novell to schools. Within weeks it was obvious they'd screwed up the server installation, and they had simultaneously made a decision to restrict support to universities, and to stop selling it to schools. The concept of continuing to support what they had already sold eluded them: their Novell people were removed from the schools department. Therefore responses to support calls would take days as I was shuffled round the RM empire. I became pretty expert on Netware 2 and 3 installation as a result.
The school also uses a Mentor database from Capita. I know we have logged at least one support call which has not been properly addressed in approx 2 months.
The reason I mention this is not to whinge about the companies concerned (all right it was...), but to point out that when you buy a commercial
Capita and RM in one go :)
service you cannot take support for granted. And why was this technician allowed to produce his complicated system without documenting it? That sounds like bad management.
With a closed source system part of the basic idea appears to be the withholding of documentation. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
participants (3)
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Grainge, Derek -
Mark Evans -
Matt Johnson