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Chris Puttick

25 Sep 2003 25 Sep '03

21:17

Hi As a result of a core network failure on a scale I hope none of you ever have to face, I've only just had the delightful experience of reading today's developments of "wont run as root". I have to say some of it appalled me. Andrew (Nix, not Ray!) has made it clear a number of times that he is new to Linux; he joined this list on my suggestion as it is intended to help those trying to make Linux a solution in the UK schools environment, and I do not have either enough time or enough knowledge to resolve all the problems he comes across by being both a Linux "newbie" and supporting a cutting edge environment. To give some background, the Linux thin client network that faces our Mr Nix every working day is one of the biggest in the world (no exaggeration); it is also one of the only large-scale Linux deployments in an English school. Because of the realities of the British education system, there has been neither enough time or money to provide Andrew and his colleague with the training that they ideally would have had to support such a solution. This list provides them with access to essential front-line knowledge to make their position vaguely tenable. Those that are helped tend to become the helpers of the future; this is the primary advantage to me of utilising open source solutions - there's always someone slightly ahead of you who can help you the next step up the ladder, empowering you to then help those below. Don't take this personally, Thomas, but your answers have become increasingly complex, difficult to understand and are often not the simplest solution. Occam's razor is a simple tool for simple people like myself; please think about using it. In the thread in question, Garry gave a simple and effective answer which I personally was unaware of and have stored away for future use. While your discussion with our Mr Ray has been enlightening in parts, if I had read it 2 years ago it would have made very little sense and been of no use. And that's the point; on this list, unlike some others, answers need to be of use and preferably immediate. That's why people join, to ask for help. Moreover, by its very nature, many people joining will be very new to Linux, and possibly have little general technical understanding; those of us who can help do. When we can't help, we look forward to answers from those with more knowledge. As always, this is just IMNSHO (in my not so humble opinion!). Chris

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Richard Rothwell

26 Sep 26 Sep

09:23

New subject: Winbind and NT Server Authentication

Hi All, I'm having a nightmare configuring LTSP, winbind and pam authentication to authenticate against an NT server. I've followed all the instructions and howto's, had it working once on one machine and then it stopped for no obvious reason. If there is an expert out there who would be prepared to help (there are funds avaiable!) please contacts me. I will publish the results / advice on the list. ===== rgds, Richard Rothwell -------------------------------------------------------------------- Don't teach pigs to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pigs. Robert Kiyosaki ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

Thomas Adam

12:01

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

--- Chris Puttick wrote:

...

Hi

Hello.

...

As a result of a core network failure on a scale I hope none of you ever have to face, I've only just had the delightful experience of reading today's developments of "wont run as root". I have to say some of it appalled me. Andrew (Nix, not Ray!) has made it clear a number of times that he is new to Linux; he joined this list on my suggestion as it is intended to help those trying to make Linux a solution in the UK schools environment,

Yes, primarily that is what this list aims to provide support for. Although, more often than not, the questions posed here can easily be answered by RTFM, in my opinion :)

...

and I do not have either enough time or enough knowledge to resolve all the problems he comes across by being both a Linux "newbie" and supporting a cutting edge environment.

It is not a sole cruisade, Chris -- no one expects you alone to.

...

To give some background, the Linux thin client network that faces our Mr Nix every working day is one of the biggest in the world (no exaggeration); it is also one of the only large-scale Linux deployments in an English school. Because of the realities of the British education system, there has been neither enough time or money to provide Andrew and his colleague with the training that they ideally would have had to support such a solution.

Well then, that begs the question why the hell people who are *new* to Linux should have to maintain such a system -- good grief, I find that quite funny.

...

This list provides them with access to essential front-line knowledge to make their position vaguely tenable.

Yes, but that is hardly a means to an end. Sure, if one asks a question on this list, the answer is more or less resolved. But what happens when something major fails?

...

Those that are helped tend to become the helpers of the future; this is the primary advantage to me of utilising open source solutions - there's always someone slightly ahead of you who can help you the next step up the ladder, empowering you to then help those below.

Aye, that is true.

...

Don't take this personally, Thomas, but your answers have become increasingly complex, difficult to understand and are often not the simplest solution.

I do take that a little personal, as I'm sure you would had I have said that to you, Chris. How simple *should* the answers be? How *should* I answer the questions posed to me. As for their complexity, I refute that. My answers are *based* on the complexity of the question. If you get hot under the collar, just because I might offer a simple shell one-liner, then I suggest you go away and learn some simple shell programming basics. I answer the questions in the manner I see fit. Difficult to read? How do you mean? If you're referring to a semantical point of view, then tough -- I speak English just like you. If there were any parts that you do not understand, you should ask me. I also assume that when I answer questions on this list that the person/people reading them have a very simple understanding of what/where they should be typing the commands, etc. It's a trade-off between answering the question and patronising them with "At the console, move your fingers over the keyboard, etc.......". Maybe I will answer my questions like that.

...

Occam's razor is a simple tool for simple people like myself; please think about using it. In the thread in question, Garry gave a simple and effective answer which I personally was unaware of and have stored away for future use. While your discussion with our Mr Ray has been enlightening in parts, if I had read it 2 years ago it would have made very little sense and been of no use.

I disagree with that. And also, you shoot yourself in the foot somewhat. By a really odd coincidence, this mailing list is archived. I have noticed of late that there seems to be a number of questions that have *already* been asked. With regards to that particular thread, I will say it now, as I did then, that ALL the suggestions mentioned by Mr. Ray and myself *WILL* work, had the instructions been followed. I find it a little unnerving that a simple command: ssh -X etc... can cause so much mis-understanding, all because the "-X" switch was in lower case.

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And that's the point; on this list, unlike some others, answers need to be of use and preferably immediate. That's why people join, to ask for help.

And I like to think that over the years, I have *tried* to provide that.

...

Moreover, by its very nature, many people joining will be very new to Linux, and possibly have little general technical understanding;

I can cope with that.

...

those of us who can help do. When we can't help, we look forward to answers from those with more knowledge.

Are you saying that my replies are not worthy of an answer? -- Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

Christopher Dawkins

12:21

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

...

--- Chris Puttick wrote:

...
As a result of a core network failure on a scale I hope none of you ever have to face,

We'd all be very interested to know the details. Power cuts? Floods? Loose SCSI cable? rm -Rf *? Or just Cisco? -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698, mobile 07816 821659 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk

Mark Evans

12:30

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 01:20:08PM +0100, Christopher Dawkins wrote:

...

...
--- Chris Puttick wrote:

...
As a result of a core network failure on a scale I hope none of you ever have to face,

We'd all be very interested to know the details. Power cuts? Floods?

We've had the opposite, too many volts on the mains :)

...

Loose SCSI cable? rm -Rf *? Or just Cisco?

What about RM... -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

ian

12:47

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

On Fri, 2003-09-26 at 13:30, Mark Evans wrote:

...

On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 01:20:08PM +0100, Christopher Dawkins wrote:

...
...
--- Chris Puttick wrote:

...
As a result of a core network failure on a scale I hope none of you ever have to face,

We'd all be very interested to know the details. Power cuts? Floods?

We've had the opposite, too many volts on the mains :)

...
Loose SCSI cable? rm -Rf *? Or just Cisco?

What about RM...

We got struck by lightening a couple of weeks back. Wrecked the phone system, my TV, all the switches and a few network cards. Strangely the NTL settop box survived but the cable modem and TV and Video perished. Quite spectacular. -- ian

MJ Ray

2 Oct 2 Oct

12:23

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

On 2003-09-26 13:01:37 +0100 Thomas Adam wrote:

...

Yes, primarily that is what this list aims to provide support for. Although, more often than not, the questions posed here can easily be answered by RTFM, in my opinion :)

It's often a case of knowing which FM to R. There are other information sources, but Google isn't that much of a help for this group, as it normally has answers from unknown people. The reputations on this list help, but here is also peer-review and the delphi effect, as you have found. If Chris answers a question, some of us know who Chris is, his track record and will trust his answer accordingly. These aren't home systems and a higher level of care is required. "I typed a command in from IRC and it deleted my system" isn't an explanation that a school wants to hear. OK, identities can be spoofed and more people should sign their emails to the list, but it's a step up from IRC and the web.

...

Well then, that begs the question why the hell people who are *new* to Linux should have to maintain such a system -- good grief, I find that quite funny.

We all start somewhere. Often, these systems will be the best for the schools, but IME education is good at capital costs but lacks on small training and support. Major support incidents will see people like Chris riding to the rescue, I hope, or no worse than the action of Norfolk primary schools earlier this month: switch off and wait for help. Most of these new sysadmins will do just fine most of the time, given the support of the community. They're bright people.

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I do take that a little personal, as I'm sure you would had I have said that to you, Chris.

I think that this is all getting a little personal. Chris isn't always the most tactful (my opinion only) and some of his message should have been sent off-list, but there's no need to go nova in response. I am sure Chris knows the basics of a common shell, for example. That's just not fair. Another thing worth remembering is that this isn't a spoken conversation, but a written one, like an exchange of letters. You use words like "speak" and "say" which suggests you may be forgetting that. In writing, intonation is mostly lost and people can read something entirely different to what you meant. I am aware that I am the pot here, advising against "getting personal" but I am mellowing in my old age, as I understand more.

...

With regards to that particular thread, I will say it now, as I did then, that ALL the suggestions mentioned by Mr. Ray and myself *WILL* work, had

Please make it clear which "Mr Ray" you are referring to... ;-)

...

...
those of us who can help do. When we can't help, we look forward to answers from those with more knowledge.

Are you saying that my replies are not worthy of an answer?

Logical disconnect here? I can't see how you can draw that conclusion. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

Thomas Adam

14:24

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

--- MJ Ray wrote:

...

On 2003-09-26 13:01:37 +0100 Thomas Adam wrote:

...
Yes, primarily that is what this list aims to provide support for. Although, more often than not, the questions posed here can easily be answered by RTFM, in my opinion :)

It's often a case of knowing which FM to R. There are other information sources, but Google isn't that much of a help for this group, as it normally has answers from unknown people. The reputations on this list help, but here is also peer-review and the delphi effect, as you have found. If Chris answers a question, some of us know who Chris is, his track record and will trust his answer accordingly. These aren't home systems and a higher level of care is required. "I typed a command in from IRC and it deleted my system" isn't an explanation that a school wants to hear. OK, identities can be spoofed and more people should sign their emails to the list, but it's a step up from IRC and the web.

You're taking my initial response nova yourself. My suggestion was that the question being answered here were rather simple, which could easily have been solved, usually with an option to the said program, *had* one read the man page initially.

...

...
Well then, that begs the question why the hell people who are *new* to Linux should have to maintain such a system -- good grief, I find that quite funny.

...

We all start somewhere.

Even with such a demanding system as the one Andrew has to maintain? Given Andrew's own level of competence (he says -- sorry, writes, that he is a Linux newbie)? [..snip..]

...

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I do take that a little personal, as I'm sure you would had I have said that to you, Chris.

...

Another thing worth remembering is that this isn't a spoken conversation, but a written one, like an exchange of letters. You use words like "speak" and "say" which suggests you may be forgetting that. In writing, intonation is mostly lost and people can read something entirely different to what you meant.

You took my statement too literally. As you correctly note "speak" and "say" suggests spoken work, I apologise for the implication of that. I did indeed mean what Chris had "wrote". As for the ambiguity (inherent with the loss of intonation in written prose), it can indeed cause a problem.

...

I am aware that I am the pot here, advising against "getting personal" but I am mellowing in my old age, as I understand more.

Old age? :)

...

...
With regards to that particular thread, I will say it now, as I did then, that ALL the suggestions mentioned by Mr. Ray and myself *WILL* work, had

Please make it clear which "Mr Ray" you are referring to... ;-)

Sorry. I had forgotton that. I meant Andrew Ray :)

...

...
...
those of us who can help do. When we can't help, we look forward to answers from those with more knowledge.

Are you saying that my replies are not worthy of an answer?

Logical disconnect here? I can't see how you can draw that conclusion.

I took Chris' sentence: "When we can't help, we look forward to answers from those with more knowledge." and abstracted his meaning -- no, wait, I meant his sentence was ambiguous..... or was it lack of intonation that caused it??? :) -- Thomas Adam ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

MJ Ray

14:44

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

On 2003-10-02 15:24:04 +0100 Thomas Adam wrote:

...

You're taking my initial response nova yourself.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be. Maybe I've not mellowed as much as I need. I'll nip off and steep myself in red wine after this email.

...

My suggestion was that the question being answered here were rather simple, which could easily have been solved, usually with an option to the said program, *had* one read the man page initially.

My comment was that if the right man page were that obvious, then Andrew would probably have done that. I'm not sure it would have been that clear. Hell, I still can get myself in a right muddle with a cocktail of su, xauth, ssh X forwarding and ssh-agent after all these years! Now we've both restated our positions, are you happy? Go on, give us a smile. I'm happy :) -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only and possibly not of any group I know. http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ gopher://g.towers.org.uk/ slef@jabber.at Creative copyleft computing services via http://www.ttllp.co.uk/

Thomas Adam

14:48

New subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] This list

--- MJ Ray wrote: > On 2003-10-02 15:24:04 +0100 Thomas Adam

...

wrote:

...
You're taking my initial response nova yourself.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be. Maybe I've not mellowed as much as I need. I'll nip off and steep myself in red wine after this email.

...
My suggestion was that the question being answered here were rather simple, which could easily have been solved, usually with an option to the said program, *had* one read the man page initially.

My comment was that if the right man page were that obvious, then Andrew would probably have done that. I'm not sure it would have been that clear. Hell, I still can get myself in a right muddle with a cocktail of su, xauth, ssh X forwarding and ssh-agent after all these years!

Now we've both restated our positions, are you happy? Go on, give us a smile. I'm happy :)

:) <-- that's me. ===== Thomas Adam "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- www.linuxgazette.com ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

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Chris Puttick
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ian
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Richard Rothwell
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