We are looking to deploy CCM's Facility timetable / scheduler next September which uses M$ SQL 7 as standard. Does any one out there use this software with a Linux DB, DB2 and Oracle are the most obvious. My manager is not keen on MYSQL, but if some one is using it for this successfully it might change his mind! Any information would be useful. Thanks in advance. Mike Elliott IT System Eng. James Allen's Girls' School (Registered Charity Number 312750) East Dulwich Grove London SE22 8TE Telephone: +44 (0) 20 8693 1181 Fax: +44 (0) 20 8693 7842 Web site: http://www.jags.org.uk/ This e-mail is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee. Any other distribution, use or reproduction without our prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by telephone immediately. No engagements are entered into by the School except by a letter or fax bearing an authorised employee's or governor's signature.
We are looking to deploy CCM's Facility timetable / scheduler next September which uses M$ SQL 7 as standard. Does any one out there use this software with a Linux DB, DB2 and Oracle are the most obvious. My manager is not keen on MYSQL, but if some one is using it for this successfully it might change his mind!
We had some arguments with them last year. They said it would run on any database back end, it's only a front end. So we asked about PostgreSQL & MySQL. Eventually they said it would run on Oracle, Access or MS SQL. It's not worth their while, they said, to convert it for any other SQL engine cos no-one uses them. So we bought a machine with MS SQL 2000 on it, and the database, and then it turned out that no-one had yet tried MS SQL 2000. So we got new instructions for that, then it turned out we'd need Access as well for the transfer process, so we bought and installed Office Pro. But the real killer was that where they had said they'd "transfer our data" for us, that meant that if we converted our data ourselves into a fixed format Excel spreadsheet, then they'd convert that spreadsheet into a database. Needless to say, there were a lot of issues in trying to squeeze our data (free format addreses, for example) into the format of their spreadsheet. But we've done it, we have a CCM database running. No further comment, yet, we've had it five months and have not yet got it working. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698/821076 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
We are looking to deploy CCM's Facility timetable / scheduler next September which uses M$ SQL 7 as standard. Does any one out there use this software with a Linux DB, DB2 and Oracle are the most obvious. My manager is not keen on MYSQL, but if some one is using it for this successfully it might change his mind!
We had some arguments with them last year. They said it would run on any database back end, it's only a front end. So we asked about PostgreSQL &
Quite a few people (in all sorts of situations) just don't appear to understand the meaning of the world "any"...
MySQL. Eventually they said it would run on Oracle, Access or MS SQL. It's not worth their while, they said, to convert it for any other SQL engine cos no-one uses them. So we bought a machine with MS SQL 2000 on
Chicken/Egg... Anyway isn't one of the meanings of SQL "Standard Query Language" :)
it, and the database, and then it turned out that no-one had yet tried MS SQL 2000. So we got new instructions for that, then it turned out we'd
This kind of thing dosn't sound exactly unfamiliar.
need Access as well for the transfer process, so we bought and installed Office Pro. But the real killer was that where they had said they'd "transfer our data" for us, that meant that if we converted our data ourselves into a fixed format Excel spreadsheet, then they'd convert that spreadsheet into a database. Needless to say, there were a lot of issues in trying to squeeze our data (free format addreses, for example) into the format of their spreadsheet. But we've done it, we have a CCM database running. No further comment, yet, we've had it five months and have not yet got it working.
-- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 21 Jan 2002 09:35 am, Mark Evans wrote:
Chicken/Egg... Anyway isn't one of the meanings of SQL "Standard Query Language" :)
I thought it was Structured Query Language. But it should be pretty much the same whatever SQL database you use. However, opening a connection to a database isn't necessarily the same - you use different commands to open an PostgreSQL database compared to a MySQL database (at least I gather that from reading various Perl/PHP scripts) Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBPEvirpdDUnce+EgsEQLc5QCfXLerpcOWQkmP4K3JdKZUz2dOaqYAnA6N 3lfiCFfgpyg4AqDBirgMPNJ2 =K0O0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
I thought it was Structured Query Language.
Writing SQL so it works on all SQL servers is like writing HTML so it works on all browsers. The CCM SQL is yet another case of "what, aren't you using IE, all our customers use IE, just click here to download". You may have been puzzled by me saying "we have it running ... but have not yet got it working". It's true, though it would be equally true, looking at it another way, to say "we have it working but have not yet got it running". If you aren't confused, you don't understand. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698/821076 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
I thought it was Structured Query Language.
Writing SQL so it works on all SQL servers is like writing HTML so it works on all browsers. The CCM SQL is yet another case of "what, aren't you using IE, all our customers use IE, just click here to download".
Except with HTML there is the difference between "works" meaning "it will render in a meaningful way" and "works" meaning "we though HTML was a desktop publishing language". -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 09:43:09AM +0000, Dan Kolb wrote:
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On Monday 21 Jan 2002 09:35 am, Mark Evans wrote:
Chicken/Egg... Anyway isn't one of the meanings of SQL "Standard Query Language" :)
I thought it was Structured Query Language. But it should be pretty much the same whatever SQL database you use. However, opening a connection to a database isn't necessarily the same - you use different commands to open an PostgreSQL database compared to a MySQL database (at least I gather that from reading various Perl/PHP scripts)
With perl there is what's called a DBD/DBI (database dependent/database independent) interface to accessing SQL databases. You have one module (the DBD) that lies directly next to the database which implements the calls supported by the database & on top of that the more abstract DBI module through which you pass your SQL queries. This makes it easy to migrate your code from one database to another or write another DBI for some yet unsupported database. This is how these people should have designed their system so that it doesn't suck and customers can then use whatever SQL database they like with minimal coding effort required by the company. If they'd also then made the interface open then customers/db companies could even write the database dependent bit themselves. Different databases all implement the SQL'92 standard a bit differently (it's abstract in parts) which is why you can have these problems. I don't know if the standard has been updated lately or is likely to be. I don't know what the licensing terms for Oracle on Linux are but it could be worth looking into for an educational establishment. As I understand it, Oracle most completely implements the SQL standard & is meant to be a good (though expensive) bit of software. Of the free relational databases then postgresql supports more of the standard & implements important things like transactions (although MySQL might do these too now) then the others last time I looked. As for application software that's equivalent to this stuff you're looking into, I don't know off-hand. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look.
Christopher, I am in the early stages (6 months or so) of implementing a CMIS system.
But we've done it, we have a CCM database running. No further comment, yet, we've had it five months and have not yet got it working.
Whats not working? I have it running against an MS-SQL 6.5 backend and am having various problems with tempdb filling up. I had thought that when a given client terminates, any structures in tempdb associated with it would be dropped, but this seems not to be the case. Currently, with two clients accessing it, the server consumes its (enormous) tempdb space and I have to stop and re-start it after a mornings work. Have you anything similar? It may of course be some setting I've got wrong. There do seem to be some very bizarre design decisions that the designers have made. For example, at the end of an academic year, when pupils are rolled up, a fresh copy of every student is made. So, a given student may appear in 5 or more distinct records in the main pupil table, each with sex, ethnic group etc fields. How often to students change their ethnic group on transition from one year group to the next? Also, some details seem saved multiple times across many tables, rather than just being saved once in a single table. Having said this, the help-desk staff do seem eager to resolve issues that arise, although some are outstanding. regards Richard richard@tortoise.demon.co.uk
There do seem to be some very bizarre design decisions that the designers have made. For example, at the end of an academic year, when pupils are rolled up, a fresh copy of every student is made. So, a given student may appear in 5 or more distinct records in the main pupil table, each with sex, ethnic group etc fields. How often to students change their ethnic group on transition from one year group to the next? Also, some details
Well it's possible for ethnic group to change, especially if the definitions for ethnic groups change. But that's could happen at any time.
seem saved multiple times across many tables, rather than just being saved once in a single table.
Sounds like someone missed that one of the primary points of a database is not to have multiple copies of the same data. -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
On Tue, Jan 22, 2002 at 09:12:28AM +0000, Mark Evans wrote:
There do seem to be some very bizarre design decisions that the designers have made. For example, at the end of an academic year, when pupils are rolled up, a fresh copy of every student is made. So, a given student may appear in 5 or more distinct records in the main pupil table, each with sex, ethnic group etc fields. How often to students change their ethnic group on transition from one year group to the next? Also, some details
Well it's possible for ethnic group to change, especially if the definitions for ethnic groups change. But that's could happen at any time.
That's right: Pupil Name: Wacko Jacko Ethnic Origin: Changeable Sex: Yes please. With young boys ;)
seem saved multiple times across many tables, rather than just being saved once in a single table.
Sounds like someone missed that one of the primary points of a database is not to have multiple copies of the same data.
The proper way to design a database when you're dealing with personal records is to introduce a primary key ie. a personal identifier. This then allows you to break the data down pretty much as you see fit & you should never get duplication of data in tables except for the key of course. I can't imagine that this database front-end doesn't make use of a personal identifier otherwise it would truly be useless. It's also worth investigating what the tables look like by running a SQL query directly on the DB itself. There may be large tables which is generally a bad sign as you straightaway start running into performance issues although with a data set the size of a school it will hardly matter initially but it can come back and bite you. Also when you come to buy a management system such as this always ask for a copy of the ER (entity/relationship) diagram. It could be that the salesman doesn't know what you're on about but tell him to ask the designers for one if that's the case. If they can't provide you with one then tell them to sling their hooks. An ER diagram is an essential tool for database design & if it's properly prosecuted, when the time comes that you need to add a field say, you can look at the ER diagram & see where you can slot it in. Most DB's will produce one but you want one drawn out by hand by the designers using an appropriate graphics tool. I should have one kicking around in which case I'll stick it up on my site so that people on this list will then know what they're looking for. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/ The gent who wakes up and finds himself a success hasn't been asleep.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 11:49:50PM -0000, richard@tortoise.demon.co.uk wrote:
<snip>
There do seem to be some very bizarre design decisions that the designers have made. For example, at the end of an academic year, when pupils are rolled up, a fresh copy of every student is made. So, a given student may appear in 5 or more distinct records in the main pupil table, each with sex, ethnic group etc fields. How often to students change their ethnic group on transition from one year group to the next? Also, some details seem saved multiple times across many tables, rather than just being saved once in a single table.
It could be that these are derived tables so it would make sense to derive the same data year on year. If they're not then they have failed to normalise the tables which will mean poor performance and data inconsistency and numerous headaches. To test whether this is the case, change the ethnic group in one year for a particular pupil and see if it changes in the other records. If it does then the data is derived or there's a stored procedure at work. It's possible that you might not be able to change this data though because it's locked.
Having said this, the help-desk staff do seem eager to resolve issues that arise, although some are outstanding.
That's a good sign. But IMHO you should get good support if you've spent a lot of money on a piece of software. What support do you get with MS SQL, client licences and an outlay of thousands?...... -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/
We are looking to deploy CCM's Facility timetable / scheduler next September which uses M$ SQL 7 as standard. Does any one out there use this software with a Linux DB, DB2 and Oracle are the most obvious. My manager is not keen on MYSQL, but if some one is using it for this successfully it might change his mind!
Before doing so, ask them "will it run on any database?" because that's what their literature says, then ask them "why won't it run on PostgreSQL" (ditto MySQL): they told me that's because no-one wants it ("we've only ever had one request for this"). For political reasons I've had to install it here. It's our only Windows server. We've managed today to make a connection from our Apache/PHP to the CMIS database, which should prove very useful. We can now write our own lookup scripts, which look as if they'll be a lot faster and certainly more platform-independent than theirs. But hard work ... As they said after we'd bought it "this is only a front end. You need to go on some training courses to learn about managing NT and about SQL Server". But if it wasn't only a front end, we wouldn't be able to get at the data. -- Christopher Dawkins, Felsted School, Dunmow, Essex CM6 3JG 01371-822698/821076 or 07798 636725 cchd@felsted.essex.sch.uk
We are looking to deploy CCM's Facility timetable / scheduler next September which uses M$ SQL 7 as standard. Does any one out there use this software with a Linux DB, DB2 and Oracle are the most obvious. My manager is not keen on MYSQL, but if some one is using it for this successfully it might change his mind!
Before doing so, ask them "will it run on any database?" because that's what their literature says, then ask them "why won't it run on PostgreSQL" (ditto MySQL): they told me that's because no-one wants it ("we've only ever had one request for this").
For political reasons I've had to install it here. It's our only Windows
Ditto, well not quite for the same thing, but it was the only way we could get FMS6 available on more than one machine (I hesitate to use the "W" word.)
server. We've managed today to make a connection from our Apache/PHP to the CMIS database, which should prove very useful. We can now write our own lookup scripts, which look as if they'll be a lot faster and certainly more platform-independent than theirs. But hard work ...
This sounds a bit like the Dutch train website story. http://linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5767 -- Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763
participants (6)
-
'Frank Shute' -
Christopher Dawkins -
Dan Kolb -
Mark Evans -
Mike Elliott -
richard＠tortoise.demon.co.uk