January 2005 - openSUSE Edu - openSUSE Mailing Lists

Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Re: The BETT Show & A Computer on Tottenham Court Road
by Thomas Adam 18 Jan '05

18 Jan '05

--- linuxgirlie <linuxgirlie(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks, No problem. It's about time I did something constructive for a change. > I have been doing PHP and MySQL for about 2 1/2 years now,but still > don't know much. It's often the case that time using a language is disproportional to the knowledge gained -- especially when one only dables in one particular area. I'm no expert, of course. > Just download sids from www.linuxgfx.co.uk/sids and have a play around > you may think it needs a complete redo, then just be honest with me > ....lol :) Well, that is something I certainly am good at -- perhaps overly so. I'll take a look at it sometime next week. I'm upto my eyeballs in University work at the moment. > The reason why I have chosen Moodle/PHP/Mysql is that in the end > captia has said they are going for a web based version of SIMS. > So....I thought I would beat them to it!! lol It's worth a try, but there are associated costs that go with it. Being hasty might not be the best option. :) [..snip rest of top-post..] -- Thomas Adam ===== "The Linux Weekend Mechanic" -- http://linuxgazette.net "TAG Editor" -- http://linuxgazette.net "<shrug> We'll just save up your sins, Thomas, and punish you for all of them at once when you get better. The experience will probably kill you. :)" -- Benjamin A. Okopnik (Linux Gazette Technical Editor) ___________________________________________________________ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Re: The BETT Show & A Computer on Tottenham Court Road
by Grainge, Derek 18 Jan '05

18 Jan '05

The point isn't just cost. The administration of many of these systems takes significant time - usernames and passwords, groups and memberships, access rights. Many of these web solutions are hosted externally and cannot therefore integrate easily with existing school or user databases. If you're interested in a cheap solution and things like mysql integration, you could start by looking at moodle. If you use sharepoint then you're into MS servers and IIS/ISA servers, and you still have a lot of work to do to get a 'school' structure up and running. You'd have similarly to work on moodle to produce a structure which is acceptable, but if you have pupil and staff data in existing databases you will be able to customise moodle more. It depends on how large the site might become. Moodle would be good on a relatively small scale, and you are trading off costs: developers costs money by the hour as well, and even if that's you or existing staff you should cost it. I'm installing a product called 'firefly' which originated from St Paul's School, and is now being managed by a separate small company. Why? We use MS servers. Firefly authenticates to NT/200* servers, and integrates with active directory, where we can store pupil/staff/group data. Minimal administration costs therefore. It's written in c# .net and though the code belongs to the company, it's possible to customise page content to integrate with any external database (and you can run PHP/mysql on an IIS server if you feel so inclined). Page editing happens online - less hassle, less skills needed. Much easier to impose consistency over content generated by others, and no need to learn how to use editing packaged unless you're into technical stuff. Because it sits on our server, we have the opportunity to roll out various media formats for internal use - with an external server, you wouldn't really want to put up too much movie content for example. We are going to take data from SIMS to active directory to define groups and access rights. We can script this but I'm thinking how we can do this live. After all, SIMS is just an SQL database. Once up and running robustly, we will make the server available externally, and it will probably run the school's 'official' website as well; that depends on bandwidth requirements and costs. This is not a sales pitch, but an attempt to explain the logic behind a decision which I think will suit our specific requirements and setup. I think you have to define what you want from your website first, and only then how to deliver it. AT which point you will eliminate a lot of products, and I suspect the solution will find itself. Derek -----Original Message----- From: linuxgirlie [mailto:linuxgirlie@gmail.com] Sent: 17 January 2005 12:12 To: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Re: The BETT Show & A Computer on Tottenham Court Road Have we got all those things? Though in seperate packages??!?? If so surely its just a case of putting on a frontend for all the systems so its intergrated. I'm pretty sure its easy enough to get PHP to talk to all of the different MySql Databases provided. Has anyone got any ideas to what we can use instead?? This sort of thing really annoys me!! ARGH!! :) Jo On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 11:56:38 +0000, Colin McQueen <cmcqueen(a)mcqueen.uk.net> wrote: > linuxgirlie <linuxgirlie(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I was interested in RM who seemed to be showing off a VMWare clone > > and M$ who seemed to be showing some kind of Online Classroom system > > like Moodle. > > > > This may be the Learning Gateway. It is essentially Sharepoint Portal > Server 2003 (SPS) configured for LEA/Schools with web parts for Class > Server, Exchange Server and LIVE Comms server (Messenger) and some > integrating web parts that bring assignment deadlines, school events > and personal calendars into a planner view. There are attempts to > integrate SIMS as well. All held together by MSSQL server and > protected by ISA-SERVER. Very expensive solution but quite good at > sharing and indexing information. Moodle has far more learning tools > and isn't trying to be all things. RM has Kaleidos as a VLE and CMS > and may be releasing a complete MLE/LMS in Autumn which licences SPS from MS. > Connect 3 schools only at first. Other similar things on show, > NetMedia's MyGrid4Learning and Capita's Learning Platform. All very > expensive. > > -- > Colin McQueen > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com > For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com > > -- Spread FireFox: http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=user/register&r=32751 Get FireFox: http://www.getfirefox.com OpenOffice: http://www.openoffice.org Mandrake: http://www.mandrakelinux.com Karoshi: http://www.karoshi.org.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com -- ******************************************************************************** All mail sent and received may be examined to prevent transmission of unacceptable material. Wellington College does not accept responsibility for email contents. Problems to postmaster(a)wellington-college.berks.sch.uk. Website: http://www.wellington-college.berks.sch.uk ********************************************************************************

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] SchoolTool
by Chris Puttick 17 Jan '05

17 Jan '05

SchoolTool has been actively pursued by schools from other countries, and as such is not ready for UK use. However, handling the data input from SIMS would be childs play - all that is needed is to request the primary schools or LEA to output the transfer as CSV or some other open format, writing a script to input that into SchoolTool (or some other school MIS system). It would not take a lot of input to move SchoolTool towards UK readiness. The backing of an LEA would be nice, that of a trail-blazing school district possibly even better. Having it support Cymraeg would be very little work... -----Original Message----- From: Gareth Edmondson [mailto:gareth@indigo-cube.co.uk] Sent: Sat 1/8/2005 7:22 PM To: ian.lynch(a)zmsl.com Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] SchoolTool Hi, I usually lurk on this list, but I have just read a mail where Ian Lynch mentions School Tool. Our school uses SIMS.Net - and we have had tremendous bad luck with it since it was implemented several weeks ago. Unfortunately, even though I am the Head of ICT, and the Network Infrastructure manager, I have no input into the admin side of things. Shame. My question is simple - does anyone here use School Tool, or has anyone managed to convince their SMT to adopt this open source installation? I could push all I want in my school, but unless it was able to import from SIMS, which is still used by our feeder primaries, I cannot see our school move. Best wishes Gareth Edmondson Head of ICT Ysgol Gyfun Gwyr Swansea -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com This message may contain information and/or data that is confidential and legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any use, publication, reproduction or dissemination is strictly prohibited and may violate certain laws. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy this and all copies of this message and/or data. The content of this message has been scanned by MailPatrol for unacceptable language and inappropriate content. European Electronique limited thanks you in anticipation of your co-operation. MailPatrol is a fully managed service that offers your organisation the ability to monitor and enforce your Acceptable Usage Policy. For further information regarding the MailPatrol services contact the European Electronique Sales Enquiry line on 0845 345 8340 (local rate) or email sales(a)euroele.com

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Re learning gateway
by Steve Douglas 17 Jan '05

17 Jan '05

As well as a unified front end to lots of packages the other missing product on a linux platform seems to me to be a secure way of allowing pupils access to their filestores from home. The Microsoft solution allows the users to browse to their filestore and download files and then upload them again later. It implements a filelocking system for shared files. Not that I am saying the Microsoft solution is secure but that I would expect any solution I implement to be secure! Steve Douglas Central Manchester CLC/Trinity High School

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT
by David Selby 10 Jan '05

10 Jan '05

Schools should be educating children to be honest citizens, that's all. A school should not be unwittingly complicit in illegal things. Well all I can say to this is As with all schools we teach the kids the laws on data protection, copy write and event the new freedom of information act but... You can take a horse to water but you can not make it drink. If you standardise on OOo the probelme evaporates. And to this I say yes but until we teach all the kids how to set up a mysql database we first need to teach the teachers and to do that we need to explain why to the senior management team which as stated do not see OO meeting its requirements for the school at present. As for Government would say that education is the school's responsibility ;-) We have been teaching pupils to follow the law for many years and the crimes by people of the 11 to 19 age group are still on the increase and other crimes are given a much high priority at school surely parents must have some of the responsibility to educate there children in the right and wrong's both morally and law. Dave Selby (B.Sc. Hons Dunelm) Network manager St Leonards R C Comprehensive School Tel: 0191 3755204 Fax: 0191 3755248 E-mail: IT(a)st-leonards.durham.sch.uk Web Site: www.st-leonards.durham.sch.uk Any one else remember the good days when pupils where encouraged to thing outside the box! -----Original Message----- From: Ian Lynch [mailto:ian.lynch@zmsl.com] Sent: 10 January 2005 10:55 To: David Selby Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 10:03, David Selby wrote: > Are they all legal? > Well I can only speak for the one we have soled and as to weathered or not > students have legal copies is down to them as it is not part of the school > not my problem or my business Schools should be educating children to be honest citizens, that's all. A school should not be unwittingly complicit in illegal things. > we do informed our year 12 and 13 about copy > right and software piracy but there is little we can do to stop them doing > stuff at home. If you standardise on OOo the probelme evaporates. > Unfortunate most parents see coping software the same as copying tapes in > the 60s and 70s and I really thing that the government is doing little or > nothing to change their minds. Government would say that education is the school's responsibility ;-) > For our part we do provide a recommend spec and provider for PC and software > when asked. > > What about those who can't afford it? > For the puples who do not have a system at home we have school laptops that > can be taken home by pupiles if it is nessessary. But to be hounest most of > the pubiles have one PC per home most of wich are Windows XP or ME and form > the iformatin we have been able to gather most have a ver of MS Office or MS > works Must be in a well off catchment! In any case they can run OOo on Windows. OOo is more compatible with MSO than MS Works is. All those with works should upgrade to OOo - its free so there is no reason not to. > > Dave Selby (B.Sc. Hons Dunelm) > Network manager > St Leonards R C Comprehensive School > Tel: 0191 3755204 > Fax: 0191 3755248 > E-mail: IT(a)st-leonards.durham.sch.uk > Web Site: www.st-leonards.durham.sch.uk > > > Any one else remember the good days when pupils where encouraged to thing > outside the box! > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Lynch [mailto:ian.lynch@zmsl.com] > Sent: 10 January 2005 09:36 > To: David Selby > Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT > > On Mon, 2005-01-10 at 08:56, David Selby wrote: > > Well the main reason for trying to use MS type clone is that most of my > > students have MS Office with Access at home > > Are they all legal? > What about those who can't afford it? > > > and so far is what is used at > > school as for "educate that minority to use what you use at school and use > a > > proper database like most professional database people use?" > > Its just amusing that that is usually the marketing guff given to > justify paying for MS products in schools. "Its what they will use in > industry" > > > Most parents > > would not know and do not what to know about what a Professional database > is > > all they care about is that there children have access to a database that > > enables them to get the best grade the can get with the least amount of > > hassle for the child and them and given that the national strategy and the > > leave of database knowledge required to complete a cause makes most of the > > professional databases over the top > > I don't doubt it, but then being a professional educator means knowing > more than the average parent and guiding them accordingly. If you are > not a teacher, its probably not your problem and most teachers of IT > like the title and kudos but often lack the professional knowledge to > back it up. > > In any case I'm an OpenOffice.org advocate so I'm biased :-) -- Ian Lynch <ian.lynch(a)zmsl.com> ZMS Ltd

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] SchoolTool
by Chris Puttick 10 Jan '05

10 Jan '05

Having spent some time looking at the problem, both in and out of schooltool (remember Hobarte?), it is a lot more tricky than it looks at first sight, particularly things like registration and pupil report generation. The continual change in required data, exam codes etc. are also an issue. On the other hand, Capita do not have a highly productive tech team by industry standards... Of course, an open source solution would allow all these problems to resolved much faster. For example, changes in base data could be provided directly by the DfES team responsible for deciding the changes! -----Original Message----- From: Tony Whitmore [mailto:tonywhitmore@users.sourceforge.net] Sent: 10 January 2005 06:47 Cc: suse-linux-uk-schools(a)suse.com Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] SchoolTool Ian Lynch wrote: > To be honest, I have been far too busy with OpenOffice.org and the > INGOT scheme to do much else FLOSS-wise. To me school admin packages > are just databases, I can't see how they cause so many problems! Ok, > time tabling software could be a bit complex but the basic data things > should be just data files, surely. Why it takes Capita years to design > a new version is beyond me but maybe I'm missing something. I don't > really have the time or desire to get into school admin systems. > As ever, the problem with these systems is not the database, but the GUI that is tacked on top so that the admin staff don't know that they're using a database. I sometimes think that it'd be easier to teach people SQL than have to cope with the instabilities and idiosynchrasies of each new generation of GUI... One of the biggest problems in deploying SIMS .Net is the move from the software being distributed via a network share (which allowed it to be hosted on a Samba server) to a central MS SQL database. So, although the system of file locks could be a PITA to work with in the old version, the reliance on a single system to perform the processing that every workstation in the school did previously means that most schools are having to upgrade their SIMS servers. Our LEA recommended that every secondary school spend £5k on a new server to run SIMS .Net. That's a lot of cash that could have been spent elsewhere. As far as the complexities of the software go, you're right in that most of the functions are relatively simple, but there are some more advanced features like talking to OMRs. Cheers, Tony -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com This message may contain information and/or data that is confidential and legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any use, publication, reproduction or dissemination is strictly prohibited and may violate certain laws. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy this and all copies of this message and/or data. The content of this message has been scanned by MailPatrol for unacceptable language and inappropriate content. European Electronique limited thanks you in anticipation of your co-operation. MailPatrol is a fully managed service that offers your organisation the ability to monitor and enforce your Acceptable Usage Policy. For further information regarding the MailPatrol services contact the European Electronique Sales Enquiry line on 0845 345 8340 (local rate) or email sales(a)euroele.com

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT
by Chris Puttick 10 Jan '05

10 Jan '05

Point by point rebuttal for your school management... (1) *Only* by using OpenOffice can you satisfy the file transfer requirement. Given the price of MS Office, it is inappropriate to assume that all households have access, particularly to the latest version. While de facto most do, it is common in less well off households for the copy of MS Office (and indeed Windows) to be illegal. By adopting an office suite that is free to use, and moreover uses a published file format, you ensure all students can have easy file transfer i.e. those who do not already have an (licenced) office suite that can read the OpenOffice file formats can be simply given a copy of OpenOffice. (2) To assume a permanent commitment to SIMS as the school management system is, to say the least, unrealistic. Limited at best, it is written on a proprietary backend which locks the organisation into additional expenditure. To get a glimpse of one possible future, go see http://schooltool.org. (3) Most schools demonstrate very limited skills in the use of ICT i.e. what they do know is immediately transferrable to OpenOffice/KDE with only minimal training (30 minutes plus a cheat sheet). Industry reviewers concluded only advanced users Of MS Office would be penalised as the more complex functions are harder to reproduce in OpenOffice etc.. Conversely advanced users adapted easier as they were often the people prepared to try things out! Tests on KDE (3.2 from memory) found with careful setup, many users failed to even notice they were not on Windows. (4) As you say, Karoshi, or for those who need commercial involvement to be comfortable, Novell do a very nice line in config tools. Further, managing a modern, complex MS setup requires skills most schools choose not to pay for, and either struggle along with a system that is either full of holes, unchanged since a company installed it (and thus no longer meeting the real ICT needs of the school) or has a third party software package managing the configuration. Many schools still working with NT4 and 2k at the backend are going to be shocked to find running 2k3 needs support staff to be retrained. The current issue in schools is that they are protected from proper ICT audits. Were a non-education IT consulting firm charged with evaluating the average school's implementations, I assure you they would be less than complimentary ;-). Cheers Chris -----Original Message----- From: David Selby [mailto:IT@st-leonards.durham.sch.uk] Sent: Fri 1/7/2005 12:13 PM To: 'Thomas Dyer' Cc: 'SuSe' Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT Well me and by ITC coordinator tried to go MS free 3 years ago and was shot down in flames by the county and senior management team we thing it's the only way forward for schools and school budgets but they came back with the following requirements that we need to meet before they would even consider It 1. you must be able to covert files easily between home and school i.e. MS office 2. sims must work on the system. 3. no loss of present skills 4. ease of set up so the skills required can be easily be found in other people. IE should the present Network team leave Now star office has most of the MS office problem solved Karoshi has 4 sorted with some not tec written how to's if I should leave And works with a sims server not sure how yet but am looking at this That leaves access and no lose of skills if star gets access sorted my team can soon show how present skills are not lost but enhanced with the migration we are going to try and get them to go MS free in our next up date faze which is In 3 years. So I am starting to but together the information I need. It would be nice if some people in my county would let us know if they are even looking in to the feasibility of Durham schools going Linux but our support team has just lost its only real Linux champion to RM -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Dyer [mailto:dyert@xdevelopment.co.uk] Sent: 07 January 2005 09:55 To: David Selby Cc: 'SuSe' Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT David, I'd suggest that Rekall is actually a better "database" teaching tool than MS Access, and might fit with the requirements of the AS / A2 courses. I've done quite a lot of testing of it with a highly customised linux distro (based loosely on SuSE 9.2) which we're using for some office desktop installations. Alternatively, OpenOffice 1.9x has some interesting ideas at "database" in the latest beta, which show some promise. >From a "commercial" point of view, I'm interested in finding out how many schools are actually currently rolling out Linux onto their desktops. Thomas Dyer Xdevelopment llp On Fri, 7 Jan 2005, David Selby wrote: > Karoshi is grate where were you 3 years ago before we went down the > Microcost line. > > The only thing missing is an Microsoft access clone to do the database > section of the AS and A2 courses > > You would still need some Linux knowledge to set up a relational database > which is simple to use. > > I will be upgrading the whole school again in between 3 and 4 years funds > depending and will be watching this project with interest > > > -----Original Message----- > From: linuxgirlie [mailto:linuxgirlie@gmail.com] > Sent: 06 January 2005 13:51 > To: SuSe > Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] BETT > > linuxschools.com will be there, paul and I haven't got a stand but we > will be wandering around on thursday 13th with a laptop in tow, if > anyone wants a demo of Karoshi. > > Can't think at the present time of anyone else who sticks in my mind. > > Jo > > > > > -- > Spread FireFox: http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=user/register&r=32751 > Get FireFox: http://www.getfirefox.com > OpenOffice: http://www.openoffice.org > Mandrake: http://www.mandrakelinux.com > Flexihostings: > http://www.flexihostings.net/partners/idevaffiliate.php?id=7170 > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com > For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com > > > > > -- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com > For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-unsubscribe(a)suse.com For additional commands, e-mail: suse-linux-uk-schools-help(a)suse.com This message may contain information and/or data that is confidential and legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that any use, publication, reproduction or dissemination is strictly prohibited and may violate certain laws. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy this and all copies of this message and/or data. The content of this message has been scanned by MailPatrol for unacceptable language and inappropriate content. European Electronique limited thanks you in anticipation of your co-operation. MailPatrol is a fully managed service that offers your organisation the ability to monitor and enforce your Acceptable Usage Policy. For further information regarding the MailPatrol services contact the European Electronique Sales Enquiry line on 0845 345 8340 (local rate) or email sales(a)euroele.com

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incredibly simple mail setup
by Matt Johnson 08 Jan '05

08 Jan '05

Hi all, The *only* mail I want to do with my (debian) linux box is *send* informational emails to myself with a cron job using: mail johnsonmlw(a)yahoo.com < info.txt I'm lost in a world of mta's etc. I've read howtos and think I understand how it all works. I have a default gateway (a linux box connected to my broadband connection with ipmasq installed). I have a linux workstation behind it and get access to all internet services I need with no problems. I have exim4 installed (I'm lost on that). I type the command as above and the mail never arrives in my yahoo box. Do I need to tell it to go via the gateway or am I leagues off the point? I could use some pointers please. What components of the mail trail do I actually need to install to do this task? What packages don't I need to worry about. Thanks in advance. -- Matt Johnson ___________________________________________________________ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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now a silly question
by David Selby 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

How do I log in as root it dos not give me the option on boot up and if I boot into safeboot it says incorrect login

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BETT
by Matt Johnson 07 Jan '05

07 Jan '05

Hi all, Anyone have a presence at BETT? Any stands of interest to us? Ta -- Matt Johnson ___________________________________________________________ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

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