September 2000 - openSUSE Edu - openSUSE Mailing Lists

Recycling old PC's/Company Upgrading.
by Simon Wood 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

1). Please (Pretty Please!) change the 'subject' when changing, well, the subject. 2). Re erasing old disks - this is a particularly difficult one as who knows what levels you really have to go to. Some companies make lots of money providing tools/service to do this. Why not suggest that the machines are provided ex-harddisk, who ever collects them simply takes a screwdriver and removes the disks before taking the machines away. 3). Another problem is the 'safety', you may need to sign a waiver stating that the company can not be held responsible if the kit is electrically unsafe. Simon Wood > -----Original Message----- > From: Nigel Metheringham [SMTP:Nigel.Metheringham@VData.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 5:28 PM > To: kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com > Cc: Schools List > Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools. > > > kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com said: > > Someone at my last LUG meeting suggesting raiding skips for thrown out > > boxes, popping Linux on them, and giving them out to LUG members for > > experiments (a bit extreme, but I am sure something could come of it). > > Serious point would be to talk to a reasonable sized company that has > been around for a few years so is likely to be rolling out old kit with > the latest PIV you now need to boot W2K in less than 2 days.... if the > kit was going to a good cause and you could guarentee that any data on > the systems was entirely wiped I'm sure they could see it as a way of > getting cheap publicity. > > Nigel. > > -- > [ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ] > [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham(a)VData.co.uk ] > [ Phone: +44 1423 850000 Fax +44 1423 858866 ] >

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Linux Internet Appliances using 486 PCs
by Gary Stainburn 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

-----Original Message----- From: kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com [SMTP:kevin.taylor@powerconv.alstom.com] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 9:52 AM To: Schools List Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Linux Internet Appliances using 486 PCs [snip] > >This is exactly the sort of thing that got me into this >area in the first place. I have 10 of those in my spare room ! > >I would really like to do this with some of my 10 at my >daughters school, but there are a number of fundamental >problems that stand in my way : A quick and simple question. Have you spoken to said school? I've had this speaking to other parents - they have thrown away kit because they assumed that the school couldn't use it. >1. I cannot support it full time (I have another job :-) Depending on the use they wish to put them to, this probably wouldn't be a problem. If they simply wish to run server setup's they tend not to need any support after the 1st week. Client PC's could be designed so that a system reset is as simple as inserting a floppy. I know that at Leeds Met Uni they simply insert a boot floppy and the whole installation is overwritten from a single image on a secure server. This is possible because all student files are kept on one file server that is backed up regularly. >2. They would need to buy a single top-spec machine as >a server (and all their money/machines are tied up) Yes and no. If they want one file server, this could be done using a modest spec Pentium (Celeron/PII). The slowest part after all is the NIC. If they wish to run X then again a lot of the work is done at the client which I use(d) 486's for. If the wish to use VNC then more work is done by the server (memory/processor intensive). >3. They would be doing things on their own, as all >their central IT support is Windows based. Catch 22 here I'm afraid. Until more people use Linux, you won't get support centres supporting it. However, as I said earlier, with a good setup this isn't as important. > >I am not sure how the OSS model, of sending stuff >around the world electronically could relate to hardware >though :-) > >We could perhaps take the view that a series of >single distributions could be developed to do a single >thing - and that thing only. This could be used to turn >a single machine into an internet 'appliance' with >minimal fuss. There's nothing to stop anyone rolling their own dist.. A colleague of mine has already done this using a RedHat dist. as a base. He simply add/removed rpm's as he saw fit. This would greatly ease the install for a teacher/technician as they could just follow the on-screen instructions and take all defaults. > >I have seen reviews of 'network-area-storage' devices, >'internet ready' cameras, 'web-server-in-a-box' devices, >all based on Linux, with admin via the web. > >I would be interested in adding to the smoothwall idea. > >Kevin. ----------------------------------------- Gary Stainburn. Work: http://www.ringways.co.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@ringways.co.uk REVCOM: http://www.revcom.org.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@revcom.org.uk ----------------------------------------- Murphy's Laws: (327) Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it. -----------------------------------------

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools.
by Gary Stainburn 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

-----Original Message----- From: Malcolm [SMTP:malc@ngfl.gov.uk] Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 6:12 PM To: kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com; Schools List Subject: RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools. >hi all > >the embedded device, (single function) is already widely employed, for >example Cisco's PIX Firewall is an expensive low-end Pentium and >Coyote's Web Switch runs on FreeBSD. They are common place in the >market. > I agree, but it's a good selling point that Linux is strong enough that whole companies are based on it. >The danger of this approach is of losing the benfits of Open Source. For >example if you look at Navaho, they have written excellent but >propretiary code which runs on a Cobalt (sorry i mean Sun) RaQ. Its good >stuff, web admin etc etc, but your reliant on the supplier to provide >updates etc, back to square one where we are with many providers now. > Another good point, but as well as being no better off, you are also no *worse* off. >The technical idea is sound, the support, development and maintenance >model have to keep with the OSS approach. > >The Computers within Reach initiative has recently put me in touch with >about 20 equipment recyclers and refurbishers, some more ethically sound >than others, if you want contacts let me know. An estimate stated that >there were around 250,000 unwanted 486s in warehouses in the UK, that's >half a landfill site. Yes please. I tried to set up such a project early this year and one of reasons it failed was because of a lack of supply. > >Malcolm >------------------------------- >Dr Malcolm Herbert >Head of Technology R&D, Becta >02476 847126 Mob: 07801 612438 >------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Gary Stainburn. Work: http://www.ringways.co.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@ringways.co.uk REVCOM: http://www.revcom.org.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@revcom.org.uk ----------------------------------------- Murphy's Laws: (327) Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it. -----------------------------------------

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Recycling old PC's/Company Upgrading.
by Gary Stainburn 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

-----Original Message----- From: Simon Wood [SMTP:Simon.Wood@pace.co.uk] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 8:57 AM To: 'Nigel Metheringham'; kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com Cc: Schools List Subject: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Recycling old PC's/Company Upgrading. >1). Please (Pretty Please!) change the 'subject' when changing, well, >the subject. > Good point, provided you keep some reference to the parent thread >2). Re erasing old disks - this is a particularly difficult one as who >knows what levels you really have to go to. Some companies make lots of >money providing tools/service to do this. Why not suggest that the >machines are provided ex-harddisk, who ever collects them simply takes a >screwdriver and removes the disks before taking the machines away. > This should be fairly simple. (I've not actually tried it). Place the drive into an existing Linux system and 'dd' some crap to the /dev/hdb?? file. If you get the PC's donated ex-harddisk then you need to find a new donator who is happy to provide blank HD's - not going to be easy. >3). Another problem is the 'safety', you may need to sign a waiver >stating that the company can not be held responsible if the kit is >electrically unsafe. > Whoa!!!!!! If you do this then you are taking on the liability unless you make the intended recipient do likewise. >Simon Wood > ----------------------------------------- Gary Stainburn. Work: http://www.ringways.co.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@ringways.co.uk REVCOM: http://www.revcom.org.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@revcom.org.uk ----------------------------------------- Murphy's Laws: (327) Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it. -----------------------------------------

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Linux Internet Appliances using 486 PCs
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

> Please (Pretty Please!) change the 'subject' > when changing, well, the subject. Thousand appologies - I am always winging about this on my own lists - and here I am, doing the same ! > The technical idea is sound, the support, development > and maintenance model have to keep with the OSS approach. That is the key. The problem with this whole area, is that I don't see how it can work from a central body, commercially. If you have people that can do the work (ie a technician/IT person) in school - then you could create a whole internet lab from them. > An estimate stated that there were around 250,000 > unwanted 486s in warehouses in the UK, that's half a > landfill site. This is exactly the sort of thing that got me into this area in the first place. I have 10 of those in my spare room ! I would really like to do this with some of my 10 at my daughters school, but there are a number of fundamental problems that stand in my way : 1. I cannot support it full time (I have another job :-) 2. They would need to buy a single top-spec machine as a server (and all their money/machines are tied up) 3. They would be doing things on their own, as all their central IT support is Windows based. I am not sure how the OSS model, of sending stuff around the world electronically could relate to hardware though :-) We could perhaps take the view that a series of single distributions could be developed to do a single thing - and that thing only. This could be used to turn a single machine into an internet 'appliance' with minimal fuss. I have seen reviews of 'network-area-storage' devices, 'internet ready' cameras, 'web-server-in-a-box' devices, all based on Linux, with admin via the web. I would be interested in adding to the smoothwall idea. Kevin.

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RE: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools.
by Gary Stainburn 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

-----Original Message----- From: kevin.taylor(a)powerconv.alstom.com [SMTP:kevin.taylor@powerconv.alstom.com] Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 5:07 PM To: Schools List Subject: Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools. >> 1. Embedded/Appliance/Tur(n)key applications >> ie Internet gateway, email server, NAS device. >> Often admined through a web interface, user >> doesn't know a thing about the OS > >This could be a very real possibility. I am eagerly >awaiting my copy of smoothwall, to see how much >of a 'blackbox' I can make some of my old 486s >(see http://www.smoothwall.org/) > There are already a number of commercial firewalls that do this. I use the Watchguard Firebox which is Linux inside a bright red box with lots of flashing lights - looks great. >If I have a single CD with all I need to turn it into >a firewall, admined via a web interface (as they >claim) - then I see no reason why a central body >could not collect 486s, configure them up in this >way, and ship them back to schools as internet >firewalls ... > >This is the sort of idea that can really appeal - ie >someone providing a service of turning old PCs >into 'black boxes' doing something useful. I've already tried a PC recycling project in the WYLUG (http://www.wylug.org.uk) area. I managed office space, volunteers and donators before it all went pair-shaped and I ended up with nothing. > >Similar applications could perhaps include : >- Print server >- Email/web server >- File server (network access storage ?) > >For client end of things, a similar thing could >be setup to build X terminals (of course this >would rely on your having a suitable server >to serve them of course). > >It would be interesting to see how much could >be gained from recycling PCs into 'network >appliances' as it were ... > >Someone at my last LUG meeting suggesting >raiding skips for thrown out boxes, popping >Linux on them, and giving them out to LUG >members for experiments (a bit extreme, >but I am sure something could come of it). This is a good, but possibly dangerous idea. When I tried to set up my project I was pointed to some good legal/licensing sites although I can't find the links at the mo'. Basically, companies were paying for HD's etc to be destroyed rather than just binning them because of worries about data protection, licensing etc. If anyone is planning something like this, then they need to approach companies and offer them a *FREE* disk wiping service. This would probably be a good starting point to get the rest of the kit donated. It's also a good idea to line up some (high brow) recipients - registered charities, schools, etc, - before approaching the companies. This tends to loosen their grip some. > >Just my thoughts. >Kevin. And good thoughts they are too! ----------------------------------------- Gary Stainburn. Work: http://www.ringways.co.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@ringways.co.uk REVCOM: http://www.revcom.org.uk mailto:gary.stainburn@revcom.org.uk ----------------------------------------- Murphy's Laws: (327) Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will use it. -----------------------------------------

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Schools distribution based on SuSE ...
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 22 Sep '00

22 Sep '00

If you read Linux weekly news (http://lwn.net) you may have noticed that someone has a distribution for schools, based on SuSE. Sounds interesting, but the web site is in German ! Someone has sent in an English description - see : http://lwn.net/2000/0921/a/kmlinux.php3 It would be interestering to know if there are bits that could be picked up, and added to the standard SuSE distribution - a sort of educational 'add-on' package .... ? Kevin.

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Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools.
by kevin.taylor＠powerconv.alstom.com 21 Sep '00

21 Sep '00

> 1. Embedded/Appliance/Tur(n)key applications > ie Internet gateway, email server, NAS device. > Often admined through a web interface, user > doesn't know a thing about the OS This could be a very real possibility. I am eagerly awaiting my copy of smoothwall, to see how much of a 'blackbox' I can make some of my old 486s (see http://www.smoothwall.org/) If I have a single CD with all I need to turn it into a firewall, admined via a web interface (as they claim) - then I see no reason why a central body could not collect 486s, configure them up in this way, and ship them back to schools as internet firewalls ... This is the sort of idea that can really appeal - ie someone providing a service of turning old PCs into 'black boxes' doing something useful. Similar applications could perhaps include : - Print server - Email/web server - File server (network access storage ?) For client end of things, a similar thing could be setup to build X terminals (of course this would rely on your having a suitable server to serve them of course). It would be interesting to see how much could be gained from recycling PCs into 'network appliances' as it were ... Someone at my last LUG meeting suggesting raiding skips for thrown out boxes, popping Linux on them, and giving them out to LUG members for experiments (a bit extreme, but I am sure something could come of it). Just my thoughts. Kevin.

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Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Letter to local schools.
by Nigel Metheringham 21 Sep '00

21 Sep '00

These discussions of linux usage in schools seem to be missing the fact that there are lots of ways to use linux (in schools or wherever):- 1. Embedded/Appliance/Tur(n)key applications ie Internet gateway, email server, NAS device. Often admined through a web interface, user doesn't know a thing about the OS 2. Server system. Admin sees it, end users know nothing about it 3. End user desktop The BECTA figures for Powys were undoubtedly refering to a linux appliance since that is one of the things that equinet (who were also mentioned do). If you asked those schools would they *know* they used Linux? Howabout places using HP's new print server? Linux can do 1 and 2 no problem presently. There is a further discussion that can be had about suitability, costs, usability and a few other things for type 3 uses of Linux. There are probably Linux usage models I haven't thought of (one I haven't mentioned in a thin client setup). Nigel. -- [ - Opinions expressed are personal and may not be shared by VData - ] [ Nigel Metheringham Nigel.Metheringham(a)VData.co.uk ] [ Phone: +44 1423 850000 Fax +44 1423 858866 ]

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Re: [Wylug-discuss] Letter to local schools.
by Frank Shute 21 Sep '00

21 Sep '00

On Thu, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:49:46AM +0100, Phillip Marsden at WYLUG wrote: > >According to Becta some 500 out of 27000 secondary schools are using > >open source in some way. > > This is 1.85% which, in my book, this means not very much. The point made > by the Becta man was that 150 of these are in Powys. This sounds like a > 'political' decision. The other 350 are presumably testing it in some way. > That means there are 26500 NOT using open source computing. So let's knock off the 150 schools that have employed it as a `political' decision. How many of the Windows schools do we knock off who have also employed it as a `political' decision? You've failed to address my contention that business use of linux was low because of the supposed difficulties with installation and the lack of linux expertise. It isn't now but the same straw men are trotted out when it comes to schools. Those difficulties are being overcome by businesses and I don't see why they shouldn't be overcome when it comes to schools. > >This is nonsense with all due respect. I use a 300MHz Celeron as a > >workstation and performance is not an issue. I also use a 486 as a > >mail and news server and for masquerading/firewall. OK it wouldn't > >hack it on a network of any size but it could still be put to use. > > I am talking about gui use (the point that Dave Fisher was making). In this > context the command line, or server use, or any other non-gui use is > irrelevant. Even my old 286 Elonex runs fast when running Xenix without a gui. I'm talking about a 300MHz machine being used for workstation with GUI and a 486 without GUI as a server, both perform satisfactorily. Now tell me of another server OS that can be usefully used on a 486? You just don't need 500MHz pentiums for GUIfied workstations, your original assertion, my direct experience contradicts that; and as other's have pointed out what about thin clients? School children don't need a lightning fast machine, after all it takes them an age to punch in a sentence. > ------- > >Linux detractor appear to have this obsession with command lines, ignoring > >that every version of Windows other than ME also has a command line. > > I am not a Linux detractor. I have used Unix for 15 years mostly on the > command line, and love it. It has provided me with a good living, and is > not a hobby or evangelical crusade to me. I will use anything that a client > wishes to pay me to develop in - I live in the real world, and as far as > computers and software goes I have few 'hates', such as are apparent > amongst the Linux fraternity. If I used what clients asked me to use I'd be using Windows all the time. But I refuse, when their Windows machines perform less than adequately I get the blame irrespective of the inadequacies of Windows for most purposes. That's bad business for me. It's not an evangelical crusade for me either, it's just better than the alternatives in most cases and I wan't to make money. In the long run I see the proprietary stuff as largely doomed. > > It is not a case of ignoring that Windows has a command line, but that Dave > Fisher made the point that his investigations showed that: > 'In short, any offering must be completely and simply packaged (Mac-like) > and fully supported.' > If there is anybody who thinks that Linux is yet at this Mac-like stage, > then they must be living on another planet to me. If ease of use is the primary consideration then use a Mac. I can't see any sense in trying to bash linux into shape as a Mac-a-like. > ------- > >This evidence that Acorns are still useful machines seems to be in > >contradiction to your earlier assertion that a feeble machine with a > >command line is of no practical use. > > The Acorn RiscPC is not a feeble command line machine. It is a fast gui > machine which can hold its own with many Pentium machines. It uses the > StrongArm processor which Intel are happy to get development & production > licences for. What sort of development culture does it have behind it? I'm afraid I know little about them. > > BTW, I made no such assertion. DTMW :-) > -------- > >One of the major myths here being that Windows is easy to set up. > >Let alone the claim that it is easy to use, something many staff here > >prove wrong. > > >What are the costs and time involved in pampering a MS based system > >to actually work? > > I never said that MS based systems were great, I was simply pointing out > that there is an alternative - RISCOS machines, which can also have Linux > installed on another partition, just like Intel machines. If so perhaps you should be devoting your energies to that particular platform. I think it will have problems muscling in on the PC presence though. > ------- > >On top of that there is the issue of licencing (and administering licences) > >which easily adds up to 25-30% of the cost of machines. Whilst software, > such > >as MS Office, isn't really a good choice for education because it's too > >complex (for the staff.) > > This is where RISCOS and its software really scores. The software is > designed for ease of use, for 5 year olds and upwards. What's the cost of the software and hardware for these machines? What's the availabilty of people who are familiar with them? > ------ > >The original poster may have been confused about rewiring to > >a) add more sockets. > >b) fitting trips which will not be taken out by switched mode PSUs. > > The full-time professional electrician who told me of this was in no doubt > that it was the constant power drain which was overloading the circuit. The > rooms had originally been wired for the much lower power consumption Acorn > RiscOS machines. He was not alone in this meeting of educationalist Acorn > users to emphasize this point. Sounds like a bonus. > ------ > >Anyway there has been a RISCos style X Window manager available for over > >a year. There simply is no such thing as a "Linux GUI". > > This is splitting hairs. This is like saying that there is no such thing as > a Ford car, just a Ford Escort, a Ford Fiesta.... > ------ > >Point of information: I think there are about 5300 secondary schools, not > >27000. And although it's hard to estimate how many are using open source, > > I know how many have bought a copy of SuSE Linux under the schools offer > > Is this discussion aimed only at Linux in Secondary Schools, or all schools? I probably misled people. I think the 27000 figure referred to all schools both primary and secondary. > ----- > > I am a member of an Acorn group, and it appears from listening to members > > from all over the country (many of whom are in education) that the Acorn > > gui is the one preferred by not only teachers, but by pupils also. It is > > backed by a community that appears to know about educational requirements. > > The Linux community, whilst having some very talented people, is not likely > > to have this background. > > >Tell that to Roger! > > The point being made is that there is plenty of software available on > Acorn/RiscOS to teach the pupils subjects other than straight computing. > (This software is also being ported to Windows machines as the Acorn/RiscOS > suppliers are having to move to make ends meet). This is done in a way > which involves learning about how to USE computers. I may be wrong, but I > have not seen such software advertised in the Linux arena. If it gets ported to Windows then Acorn/RiscOS is likely to be left out in the cold whatever it's advantages. `Embrace & extend' and all that. > ----- > Before this discussion thread goes any further, perhaps it would be better > for Roger to clarify exactly what his company are aiming for (other than > making a profit from Linux)? We can then discuss the pros and cons based on > that. > > I suggest that we need to know: > > Is it to get Linux machines into secondary schools only or the full age > range of 5 to 23? > As servers or as educational tools for non-computing subjects? > As test beds for teaching operating system principles? > Any other aims? The advantages of linux is that it has got the potential to be used for all those areas and more, given time I'm sure it will be. Primarily at the moment as you know it's being used for the top end of that age group but it will gradually work it's way down IMO. I don't know if there should be any `aim' or `goal' as such. Things such as sqwebmail look like they could be useful for schools and it would be handy for schools if they came on a schools specific distro maybe. -- Frank *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* | Boroughbridge | Tel: 01423 323019 | PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 | *-------*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-----*-------* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/

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