On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Adrian Schröter wrote:

Am Samstag, 24. April 2010 11:24:28 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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Hello,

Why is the 'universe' repository for Ubuntu not available in OBS?

bascially for time and legal reasons. It contains packages which are considered to be at least problematic by Novell legal and I don't have time to review them.

No, you are wrong. Packages with may pose legal trouble are in *multiverse* not in universe. The only reason Ubuntu splits Debian's 'main' in 'main' and 'universe' is Canonical supports packages in Ubuntu 'main' but does not support packages in Ubuntu 'universe'. That's all. From a legal point of view, both 'main' and 'universe' are 100% clean. Let's see if this table clarifies the misconceptions with Ubuntu repositories: Repository | Legally clean? | FLOSS? | Frozen? | Supported? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ main | yes | yes | yes | yes restricted | yes | no | yes | yes universe | yes | yes | yes | no multiverse | might not | might not | no | no main-backports | yes | yes | no | no universe-backports | yes | yes | no | no multiverse-backports | might not | might not | no | no main-security | yes | yes | no | yes universe-security | yes | yes | no | no multiverse-security | might not | might not | no | no main-proposed | yes | yes | no | yes[1] [1] If ever promoted to 'main' Supported=no means "best effort support" (if you are not using a fixed-width font, the table will be a bit messy) -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 09:37:42AM +0200, Adrian Schröter wrote:

Am Montag, 26. April 2010 09:31:16 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Adrian Schröter wrote:

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Am Samstag, 24. April 2010 11:24:28 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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Hello,

Why is the 'universe' repository for Ubuntu not available in OBS?

bascially for time and legal reasons. It contains packages which are considered to be at least problematic by Novell legal and I don't have time to review them.

No, you are wrong.

Packages with may pose legal trouble are in *multiverse* not in universe.

no, I found enough illegal packages in universe. Stuff which contains codec code and friends.

Adrian, please provide some examples. Thanks, M. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Markus Rex, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 26 April 2010 10:29:52 Adrian Schröter wrote:

Am Montag, 26. April 2010 10:09:38 schrieb Michael Schroeder:

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On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 09:37:42AM +0200, Adrian Schröter wrote:

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Am Montag, 26. April 2010 09:31:16 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Adrian Schröter wrote:

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Am Samstag, 24. April 2010 11:24:28 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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Hello,

Why is the 'universe' repository for Ubuntu not available in OBS?

bascially for time and legal reasons. It contains packages which are considered to be at least problematic by Novell legal and I don't have time to review them.

No, you are wrong.

Packages with may pose legal trouble are in *multiverse* not in universe.

no, I found enough illegal packages in universe. Stuff which contains codec code and friends.

Adrian, please provide some examples.

for example all the ffmpeg packages, but one need to look in each source package for to find more.

I did this for Multiverse (which is part of OBS after a filter is applied), but this is simply undoable for universe.

Could we create a whitelist of packages needed to build other things by request, and import that subset of universe? Will -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2010-04-26 12:18:39 +0200, Will Stephenson wrote:

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Could we create a whitelist of packages needed to build other things by request, and import that subset of universe?

the more important issue ... find a maintainer for that task. He would need to watch the repositories for important changes and import those.

I think that is the biggest issue for adrian. no time for the continous job of monitoring the other distros.

someone out there who wants to take the job?

I think a better idea would be to remove legal liability from Novell. That is import _all_ the packages from all distros to openSUSE project. So if any issues should arise Novell will not be responsible anyway. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 26. April 2010 13:01:58 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger:

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On 4/26/2010 at 12:53, Alexey Eremenko wrote: I think a better idea would be to remove legal liability from Novell.

That is import _all_ the packages from all distros to openSUSE project. So if any issues should arise Novell will not be responsible anyway.

I wish it would be so easy to waive off any legal liability :)

At best Novell can argue with 'un-knowledge' of data imported and having to remove them as soon as informed by 3rd parties, but that is already moot and would certainly not work if those packages are imported in a space where only Novell has rights to write. And giving external parties write permission solely to circumvent this does not sound very legal-fool-proof.

we hardly can, we obviously know about the risky packages and we are required to react on notice (which you can even find in the mailing list archives btw). -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH email: adrian@suse.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 2010-04-26 18:26, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:

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On 4/26/2010 at 12:53, Alexey Eremenko wrote: I think a better idea would be to remove legal liability from Novell.

That is import _all_ the packages from all distros to openSUSE project. So if any issues should arise Novell will not be responsible anyway.

I wish it would be so easy to waive off any legal liability :)

At best Novell can argue with 'un-knowledge' of data imported and having to remove them as soon as informed by 3rd parties, but that is already moot and would certainly not work if those packages are imported in a space where only Novell has rights to write. And giving external parties write permission solely to circumvent this does not sound very legal-fool-proof.

So now every mirror of Ubuntu is also liable for some unknown, yet-to-be-discovered and yet-to-be-proven break of law? Guys, come on

Guilty for treason, yeah :-) I wonder how UB was even allowed onto ftp5.gwdg.de... For real, you don't know all the laws of the world, let alone the lawsuit trolls. Remember content industry wanting to blame search engines because they index questionable warez and torrent sites? Make some openSUSE packages a time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

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That is import _all_ the packages from all distros to openSUSE project. So if any issues should arise Novell will not be responsible anyway.

even without the legal issue you need people to watch the development of the other distros to decide when a good moment is to import/update packages.

That e.g. also blocks support for rawhide/sid support in the obs.

You don't need anyone to watch anything. The good moment is: - the day after a release, for new releases - everyday for all releases, to add security fixes, backports, etc Mirrors do that for Suse, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian, etc. I do that for Ubuntu here at work (yes, we have a local mirror at work). It is not difficult or troublesome. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2010-04-26 18:29:33 +0200, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:

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The good moment is: - the day after a release, for new releases - everyday for all releases, to add security fixes, backports, etc

Mirrors do that for Suse, Red Hat, Ubuntu, Debian, etc. I do that for Ubuntu here at work (yes, we have a local mirror at work). It is not difficult or troublesome.

This falls kinda short: - ABI breaking updates (think openssl/clamav as recent examples, yes some  packages broke with the openssl update)

ABI is never broken in a release. Updates are always binary-compatible.

- repositories with rolling releases.

I don't know what you mean. Please explain. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:21 PM, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2010-04-26 19:13:58 +0200, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:

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ABI is never broken in a release. Updates are always binary-compatible.

That is the theory. In reality ... this is not always the case. I just had to do a bugfix in lighttpd because the openssl security update, changed how the error code had to be checked.

That is a bug. Bugs happen. That was not meant to happen.

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- repositories with rolling releases.

I don't know what you mean. Please explain.

rolling releases are projects which have no real freeze. they are constantly updating, also version updates.

That'd be the case with Debian sid, rawhide, ubuntu+1, etc but I was not asking for those. I was asking for universe for already-released versions. Rolling releases do not apply for what I am asking. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

Could we create a whitelist of packages needed to build other things by request, and import that subset of universe?

I would say the other way around: let's make a blacklist of packages and, after considering the legal reasons to not import them into OBS, remove them. It will be easier, if at all needed. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 26. April 2010 18:19:47 schrieb Pau Garcia i Quiles:

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Packages with may pose legal trouble are in *multiverse* not in universe.

no, I found enough illegal packages in universe. Stuff which contains codec code and friends.

Adrian, please provide some examples.

for example all the ffmpeg packages, but one need to look in each source package for to find more.

ffmpeg is available in Debian Lenny in OBS. I just built a package (zoomer) with a fake build-dependency on ffmpeg for Lenny and it built fine, which means ffmpeg is available.

Do you mean ffmpeg fine if in Debian but not if in Ubuntu? Given that they come from the very same source tarball (Ubuntu packages are mostly unmodified Debian's), that looks surprising to me.

no it is not. it seems we did not filter Debian properly enough. Thank you for this notice, I am removing the packages now. bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE Linux Products GmbH email: adrian@suse.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

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for example all the ffmpeg packages, but one need to look in each source package for to find more.

ffmpeg is available in Debian Lenny in OBS.

it seems we did not filter Debian properly enough.

Does that mean Debian did not filter itself properly enough?

When in doubt, I always side with Debian. FWIW, this is a summary of what Debian and Ubuntu found on ffmpeg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 2010-04-26 20:41, Adrian Schröter wrote:

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ffmpeg is available in Debian Lenny in OBS.

it seems we did not filter Debian properly enough.

Does that mean Debian did not filter itself properly enough?

When in doubt, I always side with Debian.

FWIW, this is a summary of what Debian and Ubuntu found on ffmpeg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg

And they did not find MPEG-4, huh? And the Quicktime, RealNetworks stuff? (Ok, no need to list them all, but the document does not even mention that there may be others.) I side with Adrian.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

On Monday April 26 2010 21:55:12 Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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FWIW, this is a summary of what Debian and Ubuntu found on ffmpeg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionFFmpeg

And they did not find MPEG-4, huh? And the Quicktime, RealNetworks stuff? (Ok, no need to list them all, but the document does not even mention that there may be others.) I side with Adrian..

If you read the page, you'll notice it talks about *enforced* patents against FLOSS. You may have patents but not enforce them. In this crazy world of patently absurd patents you need to have defensive patents. Heck, even Red Hat has a large patent portfolio.

That probably doesn't matter since Novell is a corporation which can be sued by $random_patent_troll and not some FOSS project one can't get a cent from (like Debian). Same reason openSUSEs own ffmpeg stuff is in Packman and not in the OSS repo.

There is more information about the issues (and of course MPEG-4, etc are considered) in the READMEs the above webpage mentions:

http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/ffmpeg.git;a=blob_plain;f=debian/RE ADME.Debian http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-multimedia/ffmpeg.git;a=blob_plain;f=debian/R EADME.Source

But we are diverging from my original request: have 'universe' in OBS. It's clear Debian and Ubuntu take great care to not violate the law. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org

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The only reason Ubuntu splits Debian's 'main' in 'main' and 'universe' is Canonical supports packages in Ubuntu 'main' but does not support packages in Ubuntu 'universe'. That's all. From a legal point of view, both 'main' and 'universe' are 100% clean.

The problem is that Debian's view on legally clean is not exactly Novell's - and it seems Ubunut's view is closer to Novell's than to Debian's.

Ubutu's view of legality is the same as Debian's. When Debian finds something in a package which might be legally troublesome and it is not essential for the software to work (for instance, documentation, images, sounds, etc), Debian repackages the original tarball and adds a 'dfsg' (Debian Free Software Guidelines) suffix to it. If you browse though the Ubuntu sources, you will notice Ubuntu uses the 'dfsg' tarballs, not the original ones. If find if odd that some packages are allowed in OBS if they are in Debian but the very same package is not allowed if it is in Ubuntu. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-buildservice+help@opensuse.org