[Bug 547075] New: New GTK package manager == bad
http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=547075 Summary: New GTK package manager == bad Classification: openSUSE Product: openSUSE 11.2 Version: Factory Platform: Other OS/Version: Other Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: YaST2 AssignedTo: bnc-team-screening@forge.provo.novell.com ReportedBy: dominique.leuenberger@tmf-group.com QAContact: jsrain@novell.com Found By: --- Hi, sorry for the bad summary, but that's how the new yast2 gtk package manager behaves on me. There are several things just 'broken' (well, it does work, but read for yourself): - The workflow is distrupted with the tabs Add / Remove / Update / Undo. I think it's the only application where 'actions' are grouped in tabs. This is completely counter-intuitive. And it distrupts workflows when going through a list of installed apps, selecting updates, you can't just select a package for removal anymore: you first need to switch to the -> remove tab. After the entire selection, clicking next changes the button text to 'Sure?'. This is also not very expected and at first glance appears that no action is going to happen. It's a nice playful way, but anything else than what a user would expect. I'll comment on more things after using it more often. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User sshaw@decriptor.com added comment
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Stephen Shaw
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Andreas Jaeger
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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Ricardo Cruz
I'm not sure that I've ever seen something like that before. If I hit apply, just apply it.
Shaw, I think we do want the user to confirm the changes. Like you said, the idea was to try out a different way to do it. I suppose such leeway is one of the perks of being a volunteer. I personally am mainly unsatisfied with the Sure? icon choice which doesn't fit well since it was designed for dialogs, but otherwise it seems fine. The unusual behavior may not however make it worth the initial shock, so it probably is a good idea to go with the more conservative "confirm changes" window. Will reach out to my main accomplice to see whether he condones the suggestions. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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--- Comment #3 from Ricardo Cruz
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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--- Comment #4 from Ricardo Cruz
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User wolfgang@rosenauer.org added comment
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Wolfgang Rosenauer
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User wolfgang@rosenauer.org added comment
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--- Comment #6 from Wolfgang Rosenauer
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User suse-beta@cboltz.de added comment
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Christian Boltz
Also, the change of the bug "Severity" to "Minor" is not because I think this bug report is unimportant, but rather because according to the directrixes that seems the correct category for UI bug reports.
Don't take this too strict ;-) IMHO minor is meant for, well, minor issues with the UI, like typos, non-aligned buttons or other things that don't look nice, but don't really impact functionality or usability. This also means that there can be "normal" or even "major" UI bugs if a bug makes a programm very hard to use. This bug sounds like the gtk package manager has big usability issues, which is not minor. I can't judge myself because I use the qt package manager, but from the description I'd say it is at least "normal". -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User saarmstrong@novell.com added comment
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Sanford Armstrong
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--- Comment #9 from Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #10 from Sanford Armstrong
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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--- Comment #11 from Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #12 from Ricardo Cruz
Maybe if we do keep the icon and revert the label that would be enough to serve the purpose of conveying action. Forgot to provide the example, which of course would be: "+ Available".
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User saarmstrong@novell.com added comment
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--- Comment #13 from Sanford Armstrong
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User wolfgang@rosenauer.org added comment
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Wolfgang Rosenauer
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User ian.cheong@acm.org added comment
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--- Comment #15 from Ian Cheong
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User mmeeks@novell.com added comment
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Michael Meeks
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #18 from Ricardo Cruz
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User ian.cheong@acm.org added comment
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--- Comment #19 from Ian Cheong
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User christian.jaeger@rub.de added comment
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--- Comment #20 from Christian Jäger
I don't have to eagerly suggest any more approaches, since simple functionality should be simple and functional and consistent.
This is a very bold statement. Package management is NOT a 'simple functionality'. Please check out the Qt-GUI to the package manager and see how simple the Gtk-GUI is in comparison. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
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Stephan Kulow
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User christian.jaeger@rub.de added comment
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--- Comment #22 from Christian Jäger
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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--- Comment #23 from Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #24 from Ricardo Cruz
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User ian.cheong@acm.org added comment
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--- Comment #25 from Ian Cheong
Anyway, I would like to hear you expand your opinion on the check boxes. This is a commonly used element on package managers. Is it your view that they should be done with, or the semantics changed?
I have been reading on human interface design for a long time. Donald Norman's books "The design of everyday things" and "Things that make us smart" are seminal. (Donald Norman happened to be an Apple Fellow along time ago and later moved to HP.) Human interface design in daily living is often broken still today. More people should read Norman's easy to read works.
From a user perspective, functionality as exposed by controls should be simple and intuitive and even impossible to get wrong. "Affordances" is the relevant jargon term.
A screen with a tab that says "undo" and visible buttons that say "uncouple" "install" "undo" "cancel" and "apply" is not entirely clear. As I said, Apple Human Interface Guidelines and Apple's 15 years of experience designing GUIs are based on sound basic principles. openSUSE does not have to copy, but should to at least consider all the issues solved by a document like Apple's Human Interface Guidelines and come up with its own principles. Without clear agreed guiding principles for usability, much human effort will be wasted travelling down blind pathways. On checkboxes, one has to decide if it is the most universally applicable selection metaphor. Most GUIs use highlighting across *all* aspects of the interface (text, icons, lists, objects, etc) to indicate selection. So what is the rationale for using a checkbox instead, expecially when the semantics of "tick" and "cross" are overloaded???? -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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Ricardo Cruz
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Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #28 from Ricardo Cruz
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Ricardo Cruz
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Ricardo Cruz
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Ricardo Cruz
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User coolo@novell.com added comment
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--- Comment #30 from Stephan Kulow
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User badshah400@gmail.com added comment
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Atri Bhattacharya
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Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #33 from Ricardo Cruz
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User badshah400@gmail.com added comment
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--- Comment #34 from Atri Bhattacharya
Atri, the point of this bug report was to revoke the package management changes we had made for 11.2, so no, of course not.
Sorry if I have caused problems there. Btw there was a category called 'fresh' or something along with recommended and suggested in the RC1 version which showed newly installed/updated packages (I think). This was nice, but it is gone from the RC2 version.
Now, would said changes have addressed those features any way? Unlikely. It would therefor be much appreciated if you would summarize the features that are lacking in a new bug report.
Yes, I have opened new bug report (bug 551662) and summarised the missing features. Also added you as CC. Would be a great help if you can try to get them into 11.2 (yes I know it is late, but I still hope). Thanks for all your work. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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--- Comment #35 from Ricardo Cruz
Sorry if I have caused problems there. Btw there was a category called 'fresh' or something along with recommended and suggested in the RC1 version which showed newly installed/updated packages (I think). This was nice, but it is gone from the RC2 version.
I can't verify this now, but I think 11.1 already had such a feature albeit implemented in a non-obvious place. Click the icon of the search entry, and there should be an equivalent item there that will only show those packages that have been submitted to the repository in X-days time. The 'Fresh' category didn't allow the same fine tuning, but it seemed a more adequate place to feature it. Ideally, I would like to be able to only show packages who were added to the repository for the very first time. There doesn't seem to be a reliable way to do this. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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User rpmcruz@alunos.dcc.fc.up.pt added comment
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--- Comment #36 from Ricardo Cruz
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User ke@novell.com added comment
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Karl Eichwalder
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Karl Eichwalder
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Karl Eichwalder
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Karl Eichwalder
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Karl Eichwalder
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User cdengler@novell.com added comment
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--- Comment #42 from Christian Dengler
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--- Comment #43 from Karl Eichwalder
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Marcus Meissner
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Karl Eichwalder
Karl, is this really the right bug? the bug seems about massive yast2-gtk changes, and not translations.
If I got it right this bug is about reverting yast2-gtk to a previous version (11.1 status plus fixes) [see comment 33]. Unfortunately, we forgot to revert the translations as well [which starts at comment 36]. I think we can use this bug for the yast translation update. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Marcus Meissner
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--- Comment #46 from Christian Dengler
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--- Comment #47 from Ricardo Cruz
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--- Comment #48 from Karl Eichwalder
I think we can wait with this update/fix if there are no other opinions from maintenance team.
I think this bug is rather cumbersome and deserves are fix. In the meantime, translators want additional updates, yast and more: bug 558749. For the moment, let's concentrate on YaST. -- Configure bugmail: http://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.
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Swamp Workflow Management
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Dirk Mueller
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--- Comment #51 from Karl Eichwalder
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Karl Eichwalder
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Swamp Workflow Management
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--- Comment #53 from Bernhard Wiedemann
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