[Bug 229207] New: Inconsistent text rendering with different DPIs and hinting
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 Summary: Inconsistent text rendering with different DPIs and hinting Product: openSUSE 10.2 Version: Final Platform: Other OS/Version: Other Status: NEW Severity: Normal Priority: P5 - None Component: GNOME AssignedTo: bnc-team-gnome@forge.provo.novell.com ReportedBy: clint@traveljury.com QAContact: qa@suse.de I have a laptop with an Nvidia GeForce Go 7900 GS card and an SEC GH874 17" monitor. I'm using the Gnome desktop with the Nvidia driver. The detected DPI is 132, which is correctly set, but the text displays too large. I've fiddled around with the DPI and hinting settings, and I get weird results. There seems to be a big change between 125 dpi and 126, where the text suddenly gets a lot bigger. And the hinting is weird - on 125dpi, going from no hinting to full makes the text finer, while on 126dpi, going from no hinting to full makes the text bolder. Also, firefox doesn't take any notice of the hinting (in the toolbars etc, rather then the document), so on 125 dpi, the font is fine, and on 126, really bold. I'm attaching screenshots comparing the different settings - apologies for the size... Also, because so many websites use font-sizes in px, most text in websites is unreadable unless I set a minimum text size, in which case, the sites don't display properly. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #1 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:04 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109992) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109992&action=view) 125 dpi, no hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #2 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:05 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109993) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109993&action=view) 125 dpi, slight hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #3 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:05 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109994) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109994&action=view) 125 dpi, medium hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #4 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:06 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109995) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109995&action=view) 125 dpi, full hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #5 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:06 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109996) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109996&action=view) 126 dpi, no hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #6 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:07 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109997) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109997&action=view) 126 dpi, slight hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #7 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:07 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109998) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109998&action=view) 126 dpi, medium hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #8 from clint@traveljury.com 2006-12-16 09:08 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=109999) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=109999&action=view) 126 dpi, full hinting -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 jpr@novell.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AssignedTo|bnc-team- |federico@ximian.com |gnome@forge.provo.novell.com| -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 federico@ximian.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |mfabian@novell.com ------- Comment #9 from federico@ximian.com 2007-01-03 18:08 MST ------- CCing Mike Fabian. Mike, I lost track of all the changes that went into our Fontconfig setup for 10.2. Do you know what the problem might be here? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #10 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-04 11:25 MST ------- Apparently you have the Microsoft Webfonts installed and therefore the default "Sans" font in your case is "Arial". -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #11 from clint@traveljury.com 2007-01-04 11:53 MST ------- (In reply to comment #10)
Apparently you have the Microsoft Webfonts installed and therefore the default "Sans" font in your case is "Arial".
Indeed I do. What would the default font be otherwise? Also, i see no way of specifying your default choices for Sans, Serif etc? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #12 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-04 12:56 MST ------- The system wide defaults are in /etc/fonts/suse-post-user.conf. The section for "Sans" starts with: <alias> <family>sans-serif</family> <prefer> <family>Arial</family> <family>Albany AMT</family> <family>Verdana</family> <family>DejaVu Sans</family> ... "Arial" and "Verdana" are from the Microsoft Webfonts, i.e. of these are installed the default will be "Arial". "Albany AMT" is from the package "agfa-fonts.rpm" which is from the commercial add-on directory of openSUSE 10.2. I.e. "Albany AMT" will be the default if you install the commercial add-ons but not the Microsoft Webfonts. "DejaVu Sans" is in dejavu.rpm and will be the default font for "Sans" if you don't install any commercial add-ons. To specify your own defaults, add rules as follows to the file ~/.fonts.conf in your home directory: <alias> <family>sans-serif</family> <prefer> <family>FreeSans</family> </prefer> </alias> <alias> <family>serif</family> <prefer> <family>FreeSerif</family> </prefer> </alias> <alias> <family>monospace</family> <prefer> <family>FreeMono</family> </prefer> </alias> Instead of "FreeSans", "FreeSerif", "FreeMono", use the names of your favorite fonts as listed by fc-list : family (See also http://www.suse.de/~mfabian/suse-cjk/fonts-xft-fontconfig.html) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #13 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-04 12:59 MST ------- Federico> Mike, I lost track of all the changes that went into our Federico> Fontconfig setup for 10.2. Do you know what the problem Federico> might be here? It has nothing to do with fontconfig, these effects can be reproduced with ftview, i.e. by using freetype2 directly. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #14 from clint@traveljury.com 2007-01-04 13:29 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=111561) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=111561&action=view) 132 dpi, slight hinting, with Deja Vu fonts at size 8 (In reply to comment #12) I've set my user preferences (via ~/.fonts.conf) to prefer the DejaVu Sans fonts, and I have a good readable result (including in Firefox) at 132 dpi (which is the DPI that was detected) if i set the font sizes to 8 and hinting to slight. See attachment. One issue is that (eg) the file chooser opens up really small, and needs to be resized before being practically usable. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #15 from clint@traveljury.com 2007-01-04 13:36 MST ------- (In reply to comment #14)
One issue is that (eg) the file chooser opens up really small, and needs to be resized before being practically usable.
And, the Skype fonts are now enormous. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #16 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 08:37 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=111650) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=111650&action=view) hinting-and-rounding.png You can reproduce the “Problem” using only freetype (ftview) like this: ftview -r 125 10 /usr/share/fonts/truetype/arial.ttf ftview -r 126 10 /usr/share/fonts/truetype/arial.ttf The screen shot shows the two ftview windows and two magnifications with “xmag”. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #17 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 08:48 MST ------- Created an attachment (id=111651) --> (https://bugzilla.novell.com/attachment.cgi?id=111651&action=view) no-hinting-no-rounding.png The same screen shot as in comment #16 only with the hinting switched off (‘h’ key in “ftview”). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #18 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 09:08 MST ------- By changing the resolution, one can change the font sizes in very tiny steps. You cannot do this with the point size because most user interfaces (eg Gnome and KDE) only allow you to enter integer point sizes like 9, 10, ... but not floating point values like 10.13. But as the resolution also influences the size, you can achieve small size changes by changing the resolution in small steps. If you do that with the font arial with hinting on, you see that the line thickness jumps from 1 pixel to 2 pixels when the resolution goes from 125 dpi to 126 dpi (while using a font size of 10 point). This is completely normal as hinting tries to fit the lines to the pixel grid. With full hinting, a vertical line will be only black with no gray at the borders and will have an integer width (1, 2, 3, .. pixels). To make this possible, a vertical line may also be moved a little bit to the left or to the right. The same happens for horizontal lines. Gray pixels are only added to diagonals to make the steps appear smoother. If you increase the size in very small increments, you will notice that at a certain size the rounding in the hinter will switch from 1 to 2 pixels. Then it becomes noticeably bolder. Without hinting you will never see a big effect when changing the font size only a tiny bit because there is no rounding and no grid fitting. Without hinting, gray pixels may be added to the left and the right of vertical lines. Depending on the grayness value, the line may appear to be for example 1.5 pixels wide when viewed from a distance where your eyes cannot resolve the single pixels anymore. But of course this reduces the contrast a lot. With full hinting you have much less gray and more black and white, i.e. much higher contrast. That is the point of hinting. Most people find that much easier to read because it looks less blurred. The downside is that this high contrast can only be achieved by distorting the glyphs a bit by rounding to integer line widths and moving the lines a little bit. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #19 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 09:14 MST ------- These rounding effects caused by hinting don't have anything to do with the font “Arial”. It happens for all fonts. If you try a different font, for example “DejaVu Sans” and try with ftview, you will see the same effect, only at a different resolution. This is to be expected as the font has a different design and the rounding to 2 pixels width instead of 1 pixel will therefore happen at a different size. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #20 from clint@traveljury.com 2007-01-05 09:20 MST ------- For a hi resolution screen (such as my 1920 x 1200), should I be using hinting? or is it meant more for low resolution screens? Also, why would Skype have such enormous letters? I am using Gnome, but I've tried using qtconfig to adjust the fonts, and it seems to have no effect on Skype. thanks -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #21 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 09:29 MST ------- Clinton Gormey> I have a good readable result (including in Firefox) Clinton Gormey> at 132 dpi (which is the DPI that was detected) if i Clinton Gormey> set the font sizes to 8 and hinting to slight. I like setting the hinting to "full" much better because of the higher contrast but that seems to be a matter of taste. Clinton Gormey> One issue is that (eg) the file chooser opens up Clinton Gormey> really small, and needs to be resized before being Clinton Gormey> practically usable. The file chooser in firefox is influenced by the settings for the “Application” font in gnome-font-properties. I can set any font size I like there and it works in firefox as well. (I have the problem that I have to restart firefox when doing this: changes in gnome-font-properties are immediately applied to Gnome applications including file choosers opened by them. This works fine for most Gnome applications, for example “gedit”. But usually it makes my firefox crash or hang. But after restarting firefox, everything looks as expected. I.e. this is a different, unrelated bug). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #22 from clint@traveljury.com 2007-01-05 09:35 MST -------
Clinton Gormey> One issue is that (eg) the file chooser opens up Clinton Gormey> really small, and needs to be resized before being Clinton Gormey> practically usable.
The file chooser in firefox is influenced by the settings for the “Application” font in gnome-font-properties.
Sorry, I was referring to the gnome file chooser, rather than the one for firefox (eg from gedit). I can resize it, but it doesn't remember its size.
I can set any font size I like there and it works in firefox as well.
Except for the hinting. So the original issue I had was that I could have nice looking fonts at 132 dpi, but the toolbar fonts in Firefox would be horribly bold, and this changed dramatically between 125 and 126 dpi. And changing the hinting settings in Firefox's about:config made no difference at all. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #23 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 09:57 MST ------- Clinton Gormey> Sorry, I was referring to the gnome file chooser, Clinton Gormey> rather than the one for firefox (eg from gedit). They look the same, don't they? I think this is the same file chooser. Clinton Gormey> I can resize it, but it doesn't remember its size. Same here. But this is a different problem, I believe it has nothing to do with the fonts. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #24 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 10:06 MST ------- Clinton Gormey> Except for the hinting. So the original issue I had Clinton Gormey> was that I could have nice looking fonts at 132 dpi, Clinton Gormey> but the toolbar fonts in Firefox would be horribly Clinton Gormey> bold, and this changed dramatically between 125 and Clinton Gormey> 126 dpi. And changing the hinting settings in Clinton Gormey> Firefox's about:config made no difference at all. You are right, setting the hinting in gnome-font-properties doesn't seem to have an influence on firefox. I can reproduce that as well (I'm running a KDE session). But you can solve the problem by adding the following to your ~/.fonts.conf: <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="rgba" > <const>rgb</const> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hinting" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="autohint" > <bool>false</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="hintstyle" > <const>hintslight</const> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="antialias" > <bool>true</bool> </edit> </match> <match target="font" > <edit mode="assign" name="dpi" > <double>132</double> </edit> </match> -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #25 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 10:10 MST ------- And restart firefox of course. I don't know why the hintsettings from gnome-font-properties are not applied to firefox although it is a GTK2 application. In order to have consistent rendering throughout your system, I recommend that you use the same settings in ~/.fonts.conf and in gnome-font-properties. Then you will get the same appearance in Gnome applications influenced by gnome-font-properties as in other applications which are not (or only partly, like firefox) influenced by gnome-font-properties (for example KDE/Qt applications and several non-Gnome, non-KDE/Qt applications). -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #26 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 10:21 MST ------- Clinton Gormey> For a hi resolution screen (such as my 1920 x 1200), Clinton Gormey> should I be using hinting? or is it meant more for Clinton Gormey> low resolution screens? It's a matter of taste. I have 1920x1200 as well and prefer full hinting. Yes, hinting is a hack for low resolutions, but even a current 1920x1200 screen has still a rather low resolution. To get good results without hinting one needs 600 dpi or more. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 ------- Comment #27 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 10:23 MST ------- Clinton Gormey> Also, why would Skype have such enormous letters? I am Clinton Gormey> using Gnome, but I've tried using qtconfig to adjust Clinton Gormey> the fonts, and it seems to have no effect on Skype. Skype is a qt3 application: mfabian@magellan:~$ ldd /usr/bin/skype | grep qt libqt-mt.so.3 => /usr/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 (0xf7732000) mfabian@magellan:~$ Therefore, you have to use the qt3 qtconfig to configure it, not the qt4 qtconfig: mfabian@magellan:~$ rpm -qf /usr/bin/qtconfig libqt4-x11-4.2.1-18 mfabian@magellan:~$ rpm -qf /usr/lib/qt3/bin/qtconfig qt3-3.3.7-12 mfabian@magellan:~$ Changing the font size for skype with /usr/lib/qt3/bin/qtconfig works fine for me. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229207 mfabian@novell.com changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|NEW |RESOLVED Resolution| |WORKSFORME ------- Comment #28 from mfabian@novell.com 2007-01-05 10:47 MST ------- I'll close this bug as WORKSFORME because there was no real problem with the fonts here. Of course it is not nice that one may need to setup the same stuff in several places, i.e. ~/.fonts.conf and gnome-font-properties. That is a known problem wich was already discussed several times (see for example bug #193095 comment #31) but it will take some time to fix this. Until then, setting the same values both in ~/.fonts.conf and gnome-font-properties can be used as a workaround. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug, or are watching someone who is.
participants (1)
-
bugzilla_noreply＠novell.com