http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 Simon Lees changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |behlert@suse.com, | |dimstar@opensuse.org, | |fcrozat@suse.com Assignee|bnc-team-screening@forge.pr |simonf.lees@suse.com |ovo.novell.com | -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028#c1 --- Comment #1 from Dominique Leuenberger --- (In reply to Simon Lees from comment #0)

Currently the X11 pattern doesn't work with the --no-recommends zypper option. It's my opinion atleast that zypper install --no-recommends [gnome|enlightenment|xfce] etc should install a working version of the particular desktop but probably without a web browser mail client etc (I'm not saying that we should claim this is well tested and well supported) but if someone tries and raises a bug we should atleast try to fix it.

I agree with the basic premise, but: GNOME does not require an X-Server (you can run it perfectly as a wayland session - then only XWayland is needed),

1. Packages such as xorg-x11-server, xorg-x11-essentials, xorg-x11-driver-input, xorg-x11-driver-video should be required rather then recommended. (if anything only requires a subset of that to work it should potentially require the subset it needs rather then the whole pattern.

xorg-x11-driver-input is just a meta-package - almost all input devices are handled by xf86-input-libinput by now

2. All display managers should "Provide: Display-Manager" so that the pattern installs 1 display manager but not necessarily several.

That would be analog to the 'windowmanager' we provide - and makes sense. But: running X does not require you to run a Login Manager (think startx)

3. Do we need a wayland pattern? at some point its going to be possible to run a desktop without x11 installed (if its not already) what do we need to do in the current X11 pattern to make this possible if desired do we need a wayland pattern? Atm I think enlightenment just requires the wayland packages it needs, what do others do?

Wayland might be a bit special - as it's mostly a protocol - implemented by various desktop environments (so far GNOME, KDE and Enlightenment are known by me to support wayland); I don't think a pattern makes much sense for that. for GNOME for example, you need gnome-session-wayland (which requires xorg-x11-server-wayland); xorg-x11-server can already be uninstalled on a GNOME session without loss of functionality -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028#c3 --- Comment #3 from Dominique Leuenberger --- (In reply to Simon Lees from comment #2)

Yeah, taking all of the above into account I think that "zypper in --no-recommends <your desktop here>" should provide what a "reasonable person" considers to be a working system.

I tend to disagree - a person using --no-recommends states to know what they do and the pattern should install what is REQUIRED to run the stack chosen - not what we would recommend to make it workable in random scenarios.

probably include a display manager and X11 (unless we can detect hardware from patterns given wayland doesn't work everywhere).

For now, the GNOME Pattern (still) has a requires: pattern(x11) - so at least from that end, no change is needed. What is broken imho is that xorg-x11-server is not required by the X11-pattern. As for the video and intel drivers, we would run into the same problem though: they are not requried to operate an X-session - but they are recommended to get a setup that can cope with all kind of setups. Again, if you use --no-recommends, you tell the system you know what you want to do and you claim to be smarter than packagers. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028#c5 Franck Bui changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |fbui@suse.com --- Comment #5 from Franck Bui --- (In reply to Simon Lees from comment #0)

Currently the X11 pattern doesn't work with the --no-recommends zypper option. It's my opinion atleast that zypper install --no-recommends [gnome|enlightenment|xfce] etc should install a working version of the particular desktop but probably without a web browser mail client etc (I'm not saying that we should claim this is well tested and well supported) but if someone tries and raises a bug we should atleast try to fix it.

I tend to agree : I'm hitting the same problem here when trying to install lxde. $ zypper in --no-recommends -t pattern lxde does nothing useful either. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028#c7 --- Comment #7 from Dominique Leuenberger --- (In reply to Stefan Behlert from comment #6)

What about providing some generic pattern(xystem) in the xorg and wayland pattern, and recommending that in the lxde/gnome/kde/whatever patterns? (patterns(xsystem) is a bad name, true).

Wayland does not have any pattern - the compositor so far is part of the DE in all cases (GNOME/KDE/Enlughtenment) - no serious deployment will ever be based on weston - so GNOME (on Wayland) needs no further packages

I think recommending a desktop pattern in the xorg pattern is the wrong way round.

It's also wrong for KDE or GNOME to recommend (or even require) X11: it's simply inaccurate and wrong. Let alone that one can use Wayland nowadays, one is not forced to use a local X-server; xvnc would be a valid alternative or ssh -X and remote-X-displays. We should likely take a step back and ask ourselves why so often users are told to install without recommends - when they do not really want to be in control of what they are doing. So far the only real issue I have seen in this bug is that the x11 pattern does not even require an x-server (which one should likely expect to be installed as part of the x11 pattern) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.

http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028 http://bugzilla.suse.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1028028#c9 --- Comment #9 from Simon Lees --- (In reply to Stefan Behlert from comment #6)

What about providing some generic pattern(xystem) in the xorg and wayland pattern, and recommending that in the lxde/gnome/kde/whatever patterns? (patterns(xsystem) is a bad name, true).

I think recommending a desktop pattern in the xorg pattern is the wrong way round.

From my perspective (which isn't the same as everyone) If I install the enlightenment pattern with no recommends I should end up with lightdm installed so that it boots to a graphical system, if I just install the enlightenment

Yeah I wasn't suggesting recommending a desktop pattern, I was more thinking we should require a display manager (lightdm, sddm, gdm etc) as a normal user may expect when installing the (enlightenment / xfce / gnome / kde / lxde) pattern with no recommends they will get a graphical screen, currently they have to use "startx" to launch the desktop unless they install one manually. package however, then lightdm shouldn't be installed and I either do it myself or use startx. If most people don't share this opinion i'm happy to do it another way but to me this is what a user would expect -- You are receiving this mail because: You are on the CC list for the bug.