https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c2 Per Jessen changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Resolution|FIXED | --- Comment #2 from Per Jessen 2011-02-26 11:30:23 UTC --- I've just installed minimum text-mode only from Factory - things like vim and man were not automatically selected. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c4 --- Comment #4 from Per Jessen 2011-02-27 09:01:25 UTC --- Well, man fits into mine as does vim - vim-base isn't enough, afaict you need vim-data too. Why don't you just roll back whatever changes were made so we can get back to the minimum setup without regressions? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c6 Per Jessen changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Resolution|FIXED | --- Comment #6 from Per Jessen 2011-03-10 07:34:32 UTC --- I think this has to be related: on a freshly installed 11.4 minimum text-only, I tried to install gdb: # zypper in gdb Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... Problem: gdb-7.2-3.3.x86_64 requires python-base, but this requirement cannot be provided uninstallable providers: python-base-2.7-8.4.i586[openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0] python-base-2.7-8.4.x86_64[openSUSE-11.4-11.4-0] python-base-2.7-8.4.i586[repo-oss] python-base-2.7-8.4.x86_64[repo-oss] Solution 1: deinstallation of patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-11.4-6.9.1.x86_64 Solution 2: do not install gdb-7.2-3.3.x86_64 Solution 3: break gdb by ignoring some of its dependencies # zypper in python-base Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Resolving package dependencies... Problem: patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-11.4-6.9.1.x86_64 conflicts with python-base provided by python-base-2.7-8.4.x86_64 Solution 1: deinstallation of patterns-openSUSE-minimal_base-11.4-6.9.1.x86_64 Solution 2: do not install python-base-2.7-8.4.x86_64 -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c8 Per Jessen changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Resolution|FIXED | --- Comment #8 from Per Jessen 2011-03-10 07:54:30 UTC --- Sorry, reopening again. This must be a clear regression, I've never had to deinstall a pattern just in order to allow subsequent installation of another package. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c10 --- Comment #10 from Per Jessen 2011-03-15 16:56:47 UTC --- acpid also missing in minimum install. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c12 --- Comment #12 from Per Jessen 2011-03-30 07:36:12 UTC --- (In reply to comment #11)

Just a comment. For me, the fact that vim or man is missing is ok for a minimal text mode installation. Remember that debian does not install ssh on a clean installation.

Personally, I don't care much about what debian does or doesn't do, but I do care about major regressions in openSUSE such as this. The minimum server pattern has been pretty much left as useless - well, certainly to anyone who has used it before. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c14 Ludwig Nussel changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED Resolution| |FIXED --- Comment #14 from Ludwig Nussel 2011-03-31 10:10:22 CEST --- There are two issues discussed here AFACS. 1. the pattern lacks package -> comment #5 2. the pattern conflicts with packages -> comment #7 Both issues cannot be fixed post-release anymore. I've opened a feature request to find a solution for the latter: https://features.opensuse.org/312150 I'm closing this bug as fixed again as there is no half-fixed state and we can't fix the remaining bits now. Please to not reopen but feel free to open individual 11.5 bugs to request inclusion of packages in the minimal pattern so we don't forget about them. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c16 --- Comment #16 from Per Jessen 2011-04-07 19:44:30 UTC --- (In reply to comment #14)

There are two issues discussed here AFACS. 1. the pattern lacks package -> comment #5 2. the pattern conflicts with packages -> comment #7

Both issues cannot be fixed post-release anymore. I've opened a feature request to find a solution for the latter: https://features.opensuse.org/312150

I'm closing this bug as fixed again as there is no half-fixed state and we can't fix the remaining bits now.

Please to not reopen but feel free to open individual 11.5 bugs to request inclusion of packages in the minimal pattern so we don't forget about them.

Ludwig, you can't close this as fixed when it clearly is NOT fixed. There is nothing in the above that suggests to me that work is underway to make sure that the minimal-server pattern will work in any future openSUSE release. Besides, we have a third issue here - 3. something in our processes is broken when such a major regression (one that cannot be rolled back, apparently) can get through without anyone noticing until after GM. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c18 --- Comment #18 from Per Jessen 2011-04-09 07:44:12 UTC --- (In reply to comment #17)

Hmm, are the patterns really just packages now? If yes, they should at least in theory be fixable with an online update (for people that include the update repo while installation).

How does one do that? By manually adding it with zypper? -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c20 Christian Boltz changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|RESOLVED |REOPENED Resolution|FIXED | --- Comment #20 from Christian Boltz 2011-04-15 01:09:03 CEST --- (In reply to comment #14) (Ludwig Nussel)

2. the pattern conflicts with packages -> comment #7

Both issues cannot be fixed post-release anymore.

I tend to disagree, see below... (In reply to comment #18) (Per Jessen)

(In reply to comment #17)

...

they should at least in theory be fixable with an online update (for people that include the update repo while installation).

How does one do that? By manually adding it with zypper?

"while installation" means you have to add it in YaST as additional repo in the installation. I just tested this (with a branch in home:cboltz) and it works partly: - YaST initially chooses the original pattern from 11.4 - I have to de-select and select the pattern to get the one from home:cboltz (which do not contain the Conflicts:) This behaviour might be caused by the different vendor - I'm hoping it would work in the official update repo because it has the same vendor there. And even if it does not work during installation, it would avoid a conflict dialog if someone installs additional packages later, after installing the online updates. (I did not check for side effects of removing the Conflicts:, but I'd expect that you get some additional "Recommended" packages installed.) Ludwig, do you think releasing an online update for the pattern would work? See home:cboltz:branches:openSUSE:11.4:Update:Test / patterns-openSUSE for test packages (without the Conflicts:). FYI: If I unselect the minimal_base pattern while installation, I get some interesting[tm] side effects, for example systemd instead of sysvinit (see bug 686397 for some details) - which is probably worse than some additional packages. (This probably affects installation only. Doing it later in the running system shouldn't do such changes.) (In reply to comment #19) (Zachary Zumbaugh)

2. Installed Python. When I got the error about Python(abi) I chose to remove openSUSE-minimal_base [...] What are the consequences for having removed this pattern?

You'll get some more packages installed. Wait, you actually wanted that... *g* Therefore: No consequences that are worth mentioning. Don't worry about it ;-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c22 --- Comment #22 from Gordon Schumacher 2011-04-22 22:56:51 UTC --- After a little bit of investigation the "guilty" packages that YaST has decided that the system needs that are responsible for pulling in all the rest are Mesa, dconf, and samba-client. I haven't the faintest idea why the heck it thinks it needs Mesa; the other two are at least not particularly onerous. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c24 --- Comment #24 from Per Jessen 2011-06-12 11:15:36 UTC --- Latest Factory is stilling missing: acpid, man, man-pages, vim, vim-data, command-not-found, ntp, zypper. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c26 --- Comment #26 from Per Jessen 2011-07-02 08:37:53 UTC --- (In reply to comment #25)

(In reply to comment #5)

...

vim-base indeed isn't enough as it doesn't contain the vim binary o_O. The "vim" would be needed.

No way should vim be in a "minimal" install.

This isn't a "minimal" install, this is a "minimal server selection (text-only)". I.e. it's not about being tiny, but about being a fast install, suitable for servers.

If you have to have an editor (there's already sed in SUSE Studio JeOS), then why not consider e3, which crams Wordstar-like or Emacs or Pico or vi or Nedit editor modes into :

vim was part of the minimal server install before, is there a reason to change that?

Things like NTP also seem redundant if say the minimal install is in a virtual machine.

But quite useful on physical servers.

The argument for a Minimal Install came about because 10.3, 11.0 & 11.1, had very bloated default installs,

I could be wrong, but I think the Minimal Server Selection has been around longer than that. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c28 --- Comment #28 from Robert Davies 2011-07-05 09:30:10 UTC --- Minimal (text) Server Selection was intended to be minimalist when requested in 10.3 & 11.0 time frame, because the less software by default the less exposure to security flaws & the less to update. It is easier to add packages than remove them, Choosing default application software for end user like vim, rather than e3/joe/emacs/nano is subjective policy; subjectiveness means endless debates (like we have with default desktop & browser). Somone had to unpick very many dependencies and throw out 1000's of packages, it is hardly suprising if they did not get 100% in 1 release but was marked "done" for 11.1 when 90% there. If the decision is for a "comfort" server selection rather than true "Minimal (text) Server" base to build on (core only required to update & install server packages and then tailor to end user preferences), Then we shall need a new install option "JeOS" like SuSE Studio, easy to apply as secure server base, or for guest VM; building a system by ADDING modular partterns. Per's requirements can be well met, by a patter "comfort text server", along lines of aaa_base-extras - "parts of aaa_base that should be installed by default but are not strictly required to run a system. (Shell aliases, bash completions and convenience hacks)". Perhaps the SuSE studio "JeOS" package list, can help reduce any bloat, though I removed/replaced (with light weight rpm eg) syslogd for rsyslog, add e3) a few, sometimes knowing I'd upgrade them later on from updates. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c30 --- Comment #30 from Ludwig Nussel 2011-09-02 16:42:01 CEST --- I've prepared an 11.4 package with a backport of what I did in Factory, ie move the conflicts to a separate pattern minimal_base-conflicts. That way minimal_base itself doesn't need to be uninstalled in case of conflict. The conflict package still is an ugly hack of course but needed since we have no way to specify "soft locks" in a pattern. Without (soft-)locking some packages the minimal pattern would require >100MB more disk space. However, I am still not convinced that releasing a patterns update makes sense on 11.4. An online update would only install the new minimal_base pattern. The minimal_base-conflicts pattern wouldn't automatically be installed though. So the previously blocked packages become installable and likely will be installed the next time you run any package installation. If you are really interested in a good minimal pattern for the future keep an eye on Factory and report problems early. The minimal pattern on M5 was completely broken for example. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c32 --- Comment #32 from Per Jessen 2011-09-22 12:52:43 UTC --- Odd selection for a minimal server - opensuse_manuals. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c34 --- Comment #34 from Per Jessen 2011-09-23 14:57:51 UTC --- acpid is also missing. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c36 Ludwig Nussel changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Status|REOPENED |RESOLVED Resolution| |FIXED --- Comment #36 from Ludwig Nussel 2011-10-21 14:56:43 CEST --- tcpdump with its deps is too big. command-not-found requires python ie too big dmidecode seems superfluous to me. I'll try to still get acpid in. Personally I'm quite happy with the minimal pattern now. It's ~500MB package data, a bit less on i586 and a bit more on x86_64 (actual disk space requirements bigger due to rpmdb, zypp caches etc). Closing fixed now. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c38 --- Comment #38 from Ludwig Nussel 2011-10-21 17:14:29 CEST --- tcpdump draws in libsmi which has 16MB. man requires +10MB, with ghostscript 70MB. wireless-tools seems superfluous indeed esp since wpa_supplicant is missing anyways. But well, we need something to fine tune for 12.2 too and for any package zypper in still works ... :-) -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c40 --- Comment #40 from Stefan Schäfer 2011-10-21 15:38:53 UTC --- Sorry, what I mean is: "The only way out is to create two (2) different patterns. Stefan -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c42 --- Comment #42 from Per Jessen 2011-10-21 16:13:35 UTC --- (In reply to comment #39)

I think that we should ask us one question: What's the goal of this "minimal system"?

Good idea.

If it should be the base for a server installation (I use it for that), 100MB more or less didn't matter. Server disks are big enough.

Yes, that's what I use it for too.

If it should be minimal system for rescue issues or something else, it has to be as small as possible.

I think someone needs to suggest what "something else" might be. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c44 --- Comment #44 from Per Jessen 2011-10-25 08:30:35 UTC --- (In reply to comment #43)

I do care about the installed size and my goal is to keep the minimal install ideally below 500MB.

Then maybe we do need a new pattern - the installed size is largely irrelevant to me, whether it's 500Mb or 1Gb. No server (even very old ones) has less than 10Gb of disk-space. For me it's about a fast installation, i.e. installing as little as possible, in particular not gui, printing, multi-media and inter-active stuff I'll never need on a server. I'll put out a question on the factory list (any better suggestion?) to see what others think. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=669498#c46 white brian changed: What |Removed |Added ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CC| |brian@aljex.com --- Comment #46 from white brian 2011-10-25 22:12:43 UTC --- The option has been there since at least 9.1 I just did an actual 10.0 fresh install because of special hardware that requires it, and it was there. I have the 9.3 box set with the printed manual that clearly shows a 500MB , No X, minimal system. I have the 9.1 box set and just booted the 9.1 CD1 in virtualbox and it's there as well. I don't happen to have install media older than 9.1 but every single version from 9.1 and up has this option. They are all clearly described as being intended to be minimal and specifically excluding X. They don't all say "server" though, just "minimal", "basic", "No X Windows" To me, "server" is just one of several reasons to have a minimal install option. I only ever use the text only install, and it has been getting suckier and suckier every version. It includes mandatory graphical bootloader and boot splash packages, and graphical console mode setting that break serial consoles, and in some cases actually locks up or even crashes (reboots) machines. I have been doing more and more of the installers job myself by overriding package selections and manually editing files during install to ensure that gfxboot, bootsplash, and splashy are physically not installed so they can't be run even when the boot loader installer overwrites my edits, and adding nomodeset to menu.lst etc. I shouldn't have to fight to get a basic minimal system. That should be the easiest. Even a basic system should have a vi-alike. It doesn't necessarily have to be full blown vim, but there should be a working "vi" in the default path, even if only via /etc/alternatives and really made out of busybox. Whatever's in the net install ramdisk would be fine by me. The base install should really be only the stuff needed to get installed in the first place, reboot, and get basic net access and do further installs from the net. * kernel * driver modules * hardware support utils * storage utils (fdisk, parted, mkfs, fsck, mdadm, grub, etc..) * net setup stuff (ip, ifconfig, dhcpcd, iptables, susefirewall2 etc) * net clients to get more stuff (wget or curl, plain ftp client for manual interactive use even though wget/curl can ftp, ssh) * net server for minimal initial access (sshd) * whatever is required to run the curses yast and zypper enough to get all frther things, and for yast to use for things like hardware detection and net config. * shell * basic text editor, specifically vi or vi-alike, specifically with a "vi" in PATH. regardless if you like vi, it is the basic universal unix standard and small enough to be an inconsequential extra even if you will always install something else later. I don't think ntpd technically qualifies but it is small and standard. Some form of ntp client definitely should be included as that is part of basic system setup. Everything else should be optional extras. Man and man-pages are definitely non-essential extras. You need some form of text editor to merely operate the system, just as you need a shell. You do not need man or the man pages. A developer or admin needs one copy of the man pages _somewhere_ but they do not need to be on every box, just his own personal test/devel box. None of the racks of production boxes needs them. The policy that states the branding packages will always be installed regardless that I want a system that can not actually display any of the images is at best merely not productive or useful for me the customer/user. But at worst it actually causes some machines to reboot when the mode setter tries to change the mode of the text console, or locks up or otherwise renders inaccessible machines whose console is only serial redirection that gets broken before there is _any_ chance to avoid it by the graphical bootloader. If you need to include the images as part of a branding package that also includes other stuff like release notes and other text documents, or images intended to be used by the web server (if I ever install one), well that's only a few K bytes I don't begrudge even on a minimal core system, but having those branding packages require the more actively offensive gfxboot and splash packages is really annoying. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.novell.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email ------- You are receiving this mail because: ------- You are on the CC list for the bug.