Thoughts on moving away all pointless KDE discussions from the opensuse@ list?
On Monday 02 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 08/02/2010 11:39 AM, Lubos Lunak wrote:
[AMBER] - I wish I didn't have to read a long stupid useless repeating flamewar about KDE3/KDE4 every month
Don't you know the Deutschland key? [D] :)
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist. I think the reasons for removing the discussions from the mail user mailing list are rather simple: - they are responsible for a significant if not major portion of aggressive mails, if they're removed, it can possibly drive at least some of the trolls away, or at least remove a reason for them to show off - it annoys pretty much everybody on the list: - GNOME (or non-KDE users in general) couldn't care less, and of course the involved people ignore things like "there is a dedicated KDE list, move there" - KDE4-based people don't really care that much either, but they occassionally fuel the discussions by trying to argue - KDE3-based people either silently use the unsupported KDE:KDE3 repo, or not-so-silently take part in these flamewars, which prevents them from helping with the KDE:KDE3 repo, helping with improving KDE4, switching to GNOME, going playing tennis or getting a life - the possibly good results of these discussions are very unlikely to be worth the time wasted reading them and the negative energy generated (this is mostly because the discussions are generally pointless and nothing good at all comes out as a result) - the more noise on the mailing list, the more likely trolls will be attracted there and useful people will be driven away, and the other way around - how are we supposed to be a happy hugging loving community when we have something like this all the time? One way of handling this would be simply to start moderating these threads, since, as I said, they are often against the netiquette anyway. I would be willing to do the necessary work. An alternative (in addition to the above, of course, since without that apparently nothing would work), we could set up another mailing list dedicated to the purposes of whin^H^H^H^Hdiscussing finer aspects of Plasma's design, technical choices related to rewritting certain KDE components for KDE4 and other certainly very interesting topics that everybody who'd be for some reason interested could read there. That would be a way to shut up all those who'd like to point out censorship or similar nonsense. After all, creating a dedicated list for a topic that causes significant traffic on a list in order to reduce the load on the list is quite a common practice. I would be willing to take care of this "opensuse-kde-chat@" mailing list. What are your thoughts on this? This has been going on for years now. I expected that would have gone away at least with openSUSE no longer officially having KDE3, but that's apparently not the case, so this rubbish can keep going on for I have no idea how long. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 06:08:47 Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Monday 02 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 08/02/2010 11:39 AM, Lubos Lunak wrote:
[AMBER] - I wish I didn't have to read a long stupid useless repeating flamewar about KDE3/KDE4 every month
Don't you know the Deutschland key? [D] :)
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist.
I think the reasons for removing the discussions from the mail user mailing list are rather simple: - they are responsible for a significant if not major portion of aggressive mails, if they're removed, it can possibly drive at least some of the trolls away, or at least remove a reason for them to show off - it annoys pretty much everybody on the list: - GNOME (or non-KDE users in general) couldn't care less, and of course the involved people ignore things like "there is a dedicated KDE list, move there" - KDE4-based people don't really care that much either, but they occassionally fuel the discussions by trying to argue - KDE3-based people either silently use the unsupported KDE:KDE3 repo, or not-so-silently take part in these flamewars, which prevents them from helping with the KDE:KDE3 repo, helping with improving KDE4, switching to GNOME, going playing tennis or getting a life - the possibly good results of these discussions are very unlikely to be worth the time wasted reading them and the negative energy generated (this is mostly because the discussions are generally pointless and nothing good at all comes out as a result) - the more noise on the mailing list, the more likely trolls will be attracted there and useful people will be driven away, and the other way around - how are we supposed to be a happy hugging loving community when we have something like this all the time?
One way of handling this would be simply to start moderating these threads, since, as I said, they are often against the netiquette anyway. I would be willing to do the necessary work.
An alternative (in addition to the above, of course, since without that apparently nothing would work), we could set up another mailing list dedicated to the purposes of whin^H^H^H^Hdiscussing finer aspects of Plasma's design, technical choices related to rewritting certain KDE components for KDE4 and other certainly very interesting topics that everybody who'd be for some reason interested could read there. That would be a way to shut up all those who'd like to point out censorship or similar nonsense. After all, creating a dedicated list for a topic that causes significant traffic on a list in order to reduce the load on the list is quite a common practice. I would be willing to take care of this "opensuse-kde-chat@" mailing list.
What are your thoughts on this? This has been going on for years now. I expected that would have gone away at least with openSUSE no longer officially having KDE3, but that's apparently not the case, so this rubbish can keep going on for I have no idea how long.
a big +1 from me ;-)
Hey, On 03.08.2010 12:08, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Monday 02 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 08/02/2010 11:39 AM, Lubos Lunak wrote:
[AMBER] - I wish I didn't have to read a long stupid useless repeating flamewar about KDE3/KDE4 every month
Don't you know the Deutschland key? [D] :)
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist.
Yes. If threads are off-topic or flamewars they need to be dealt with. I can moderate threads (i would need help with that) or close threads completely. Moderation is tedious and in this case IMHO not needed. Once a thread derailed into a flamewar there is no point in moderating it i think. All you need to do is point me to a thread that is off-topic or a flame and i can take care of the rest. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 03.08.2010 12:08, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist.
Yes. If threads are off-topic or flamewars they need to be dealt with.
I can moderate threads (i would need help with that) or close threads completely. Moderation is tedious and in this case IMHO not needed. Once a thread derailed into a flamewar there is no point in moderating it i think.
This is not so simple, the KDE threads often start reasonably and end up with one subthread staying on topic and reasonable and all other threads sprouting from it getting worse and worse. As I read all KDE threads anyway *sigh* I assume it wouldn't be much overhead for me to keep it under control without destroying also the useful part (I don't know how the mail admin interface works though). That is why I have offered I would help with the mailing list. Additionally, sometimes it's hard to say what is and what is not okay for opensuse@ - there may be a 100-post subthread where people discuss theoretical aspects of plamoids vs icons on the desktop, and while there's probably nothing technically wrong with that, I'd still prefer not to have those on opensuse@. That is why I suggested opensuse-kde-chat@ where people can discuss every single pixel generated by KDE to death if they wish, as long as they don't annoy other people who want to get something done. -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
Hey, On 03.08.2010 14:17, Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Tuesday 03 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 03.08.2010 12:08, Lubos Lunak wrote:
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist.
Yes. If threads are off-topic or flamewars they need to be dealt with.
I can moderate threads (i would need help with that) or close threads completely. Moderation is tedious and in this case IMHO not needed. Once a thread derailed into a flamewar there is no point in moderating it i think.
This is not so simple, the KDE threads often start reasonably and end up with one subthread staying on topic and reasonable and all other threads sprouting from it getting worse and worse. As I read all KDE threads anyway *sigh* I assume it wouldn't be much overhead for me to keep it under control without destroying also the useful part (I don't know how the mail admin interface works though). That is why I have offered I would help with the mailing list.
Hey if you want to moderate it you're more then welcome! The interface is (very surprisingly for a mail app 8) mail. So each mail that would need moderation would generate a mail to you to which you either reply (approve) or don't (disapprove).
Additionally, sometimes it's hard to say what is and what is not okay for opensuse@ - there may be a 100-post subthread where people discuss theoretical aspects of plamoids vs icons on the desktop, and while there's probably nothing technically wrong with that, I'd still prefer not to have those on opensuse@.
Hm why? We want to keep the user lists (opensuse, opensuse-$lang) as generic as possible to make it easy for newcomers. This includes discussing plasmoids vs. icons and general "chat" i think. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 14:44:05 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Additionally, sometimes it's hard to say what is and what is not okay for
opensuse@ - there may be a 100-post subthread where people discuss theoretical aspects of plamoids vs icons on the desktop, and while there's probably nothing technically wrong with that, I'd still prefer not to have those on opensuse@.
Hm why? We want to keep the user lists (opensuse, opensuse-$lang) as generic as possible to make it easy for newcomers. This includes discussing plasmoids vs. icons and general "chat" i think.
Agreed, for many people the desktop is the distro, so there are always going to be 'how do i get my desktop full of icons' threads. We just have to keep the vipers out. WIll -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 of August 2010, Will Stephenson wrote:
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 14:44:05 Henne Vogelsang wrote:
Additionally, sometimes it's hard to say what is and what is not okay for
opensuse@ - there may be a 100-post subthread where people discuss theoretical aspects of plamoids vs icons on the desktop, and while there's probably nothing technically wrong with that, I'd still prefer not to have those on opensuse@.
Hm why? We want to keep the user lists (opensuse, opensuse-$lang) as generic as possible to make it easy for newcomers. This includes discussing plasmoids vs. icons and general "chat" i think.
Agreed, for many people the desktop is the distro, so there are always going to be 'how do i get my desktop full of icons' threads. We just have to keep the vipers out.
I don't mean questions about how to get desktop icons, I mean pointless discussions, such as [1] where people for some strange reason feel the urge to discuss naming of KDE, which, even if they had a clue, is not a topic that can be solved at openSUSE. That's almost like if opensuse@ had discussions about what kind of icecream people like the most. Maybe I'm just really tired of the endless threads, but I don't think this belongs to a generic user mailing list. That is why I suggested the new mailing list, people could still have a place for their pointless nonsense, and it'd also help with 'openSUSE doesn't allow discussing KDE4' rubbish. [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-08/msg00139.html -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 03 August 2010 12:08:47 Lubos Lunak wrote:
On Monday 02 of August 2010, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
On 08/02/2010 11:39 AM, Lubos Lunak wrote:
[AMBER] - I wish I didn't have to read a long stupid useless repeating flamewar about KDE3/KDE4 every month
Don't you know the Deutschland key? [D] :)
Ok, this may sound like I'm joking, but I'm actually right now serious about this. I would like to enforce that these KDE flamewars no longer take place on the opensuse@ mailing list. I was originally going to say something like "make them to be considered offtopic", but the reality is that a good deal of them is already against the netiquette (off-topic, aggressive,...), so the problem is just that we let them exist.
I think the reasons for removing the discussions from the mail user mailing list are rather simple: - they are responsible for a significant if not major portion of aggressive
mails, if they're removed, it can possibly drive at least some of the
- it annoys
- GNOME (or non-KDE users in general) couldn't care less, and of course the involved people ignore things like "there is a dedicated KDE list, move there" - KDE4-based people don't really care that much either, but they occassionally fuel the discussions by trying to argue - KDE3-based people either silently use the unsupported KDE:KDE3 repo, or not-so-silently take part in these flamewars, which prevents them from helping with the KDE:KDE3 repo, helping with improving KDE4, switching to GNOME, going playing tennis or getting a life - the possibly good results of these discussions are very unlikely to be worth the time wasted reading them and the negative energy generated (this is mostly because the discussions are generally pointless and nothing good at all comes out as a result) - the more noise on the mailing list, the more likely trolls will be attracted there and useful
trolls away, or at least remove a reason for them to show off pretty much everybody on the list: people will be driven away, and the other way
around - how are we supposed to be a happy hugging loving community when we have something like this all the time?
One way of handling this would be simply to start moderating these threads, since, as I said, they are often against the netiquette anyway. I would be willing to do the necessary work.
An alternative (in addition to the above, of course, since without that
apparently nothing would work), we could set up another mailing list
dedicated to the purposes of whin^H^H^H^Hdiscussing finer aspects of
Plasma's design, technical choices related to rewritting certain KDE
components for KDE4 and other certainly very interesting topics that
everybody who'd be for some reason interested could read there. That would
be a way to shut up all those who'd like to point out censorship or
similar nonsense. After all, creating a dedicated list for a topic that
causes significant traffic on a list in order to reduce the load on the
list is quite a common practice. I would be willing to take care of this
"opensuse-kde-chat@" mailing list.
What are your thoughts on this?
This has been going on for years now. I
expected that would have gone away at least with openSUSE no longer officially having KDE3, but that's apparently not the case, so this rubbish can keep going on for I have no idea how long.
I agree, but have you got an answer to the charge that "opensuse brooks no criticism of KDE 4" once you start moderating these threads? Are you going to stop all flamewar threads? What's more disturbing is that the KDE 3 vs KDE 4 flaming is degenerating into KDE vs GNOME trolling and tribalism (see http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-08/msg00121.html, which I called out last night). Bitching about the codebase is one thing, calling all supporters of one DE names is a whole lot more divisive. Will -- Will Stephenson, KDE Developer, openSUSE Boosters Team SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-boosters+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
-
Henne Vogelsang -
Jos Poortvliet -
Lubos Lunak -
Will Stephenson