[opensuse-artwork] IRC Channel Re-direct
Hi all. we have once agreed to make use of the opensuse-marketing IRC channel instead of opensuse-artwork. I have now requested at admin @ o.o to redirect all requests on the opensuse-artwork channel to opensuse-marketing. I will let you know when this has been done. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/11/12 01:16, Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi all.
we have once agreed to make use of the opensuse-marketing IRC channel instead of opensuse-artwork. I have now requested at admin @ o.o to redirect all requests on the opensuse-artwork channel to opensuse-marketing.
I will let you know when this has been done.
Greets Marcus
First off, I own the channel, i was the one who registered it with freenode, so why wasn't i involved in this discussion? Secondly -Artwork is NOT NOT NOT NOT marketing, artwork defines the look and feel of opensuse, and do odd bits and pieces and requests from marketing, its is marketing who is supposed to base there work off ours. I made the artwork room soely for work on the look and feel of opensuse and for the -artwork team to get realtime feedback on ideas and designs instead of waiting for days in a forumn or mailing list. -artwork is for artists only not marketing, i don't care how its marketed as long as openSUSE looks great and feels great to use. I am trurly pissed at the state of affairs, we are ignored (new kde theme), and now swept under the carpet to be come slaves to marketing. this is just unacceptable -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Dear Michael.
we have once agreed to make use of the opensuse-marketing IRC channel instead of opensuse-artwork. I have now requested at admin @ o.o to redirect all requests on the opensuse-artwork channel to opensuse-marketing.
I will let you know when this has been done.
First off, I own the channel, i was the one who registered it with freenode, so why wasn't i involved in this discussion? Secondly -Artwork is NOT NOT NOT NOT marketing, artwork defines the look and feel of opensuse, and do odd bits and pieces and requests from marketing, its is marketing who is supposed to base there work off ours.
I made the artwork room soely for work on the look and feel of opensuse and for the -artwork team to get realtime feedback on ideas and designs instead of waiting for days in a forumn or mailing list. -artwork is for artists only not marketing, i don't care how its marketed as long as openSUSE looks great and feels great to use.
I am trurly pissed at the state of affairs, we are ignored (new kde theme), and now swept under the carpet to be come slaves to marketing. this is just unacceptable
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 21:43:25 +0100
Marcus Moeller
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel. Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Hi all.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back. http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor... Since then, no action has been taken. Most of the the ppl who took part in that discussion, are still active in the openSUSE artwork community. But if there is a high demand in such a channel, I guess we could just bring up that topic again. @Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On 30/11/12 20:00, Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi all.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back.
http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor...
and most have rethought their decision since then
Since then, no action has been taken.
Most of the the ppl who took part in that discussion, are still active in the openSUSE artwork community.
But if there is a high demand in such a channel, I guess we could just bring up that topic again.
and you will get the same answer and that is a very resounding NO. as i said before, marketing has no say in how openSUSE looks and feels, marketing is to sell and spread the word, that’s it. -Artwork was formed so there is a consistant body to reside over all of aspects of the look and feel, that way it will feel like a solid singular system, not a mish mash of ideas and principles like most other distros. 12.2 is almost a good example of what happens when we get together (except for KDM for which we were ignored) , we are artists and designers not marketing people. and as far as we are concerned marketing and artwork are completely separate, marketing deal with how the system is, not design it, that is our job. have i made my point clear enough
@Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team.
I formed the room after seeking permission from -project by coolo and the artwork ML and permission was given. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Hi again.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back.
http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor...
and most have rethought their decision since then
Sorry, I did not find any information that the decision has been reverted. I have just noticed that there was an action, that we agreed on, which still needs to be taken. Could you please point out the relevant thread/logs (I don't mean the current comments on that topic).
@Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team.
I formed the room after seeking permission from -project by coolo and the artwork ML and permission was given.
I think it would be better if the channel owner would be admin @ o.o. Not only in this case, but in any other. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 5:17 AM, Marcus Moeller
Hi again.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back.
http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor...
and most have rethought their decision since then
Sorry, I did not find any information that the decision has been reverted. I have just noticed that there was an action, that we agreed on, which still needs to be taken.
Could you please point out the relevant thread/logs (I don't mean the current comments on that topic).
@Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team.
I formed the room after seeking permission from -project by coolo and the artwork ML and permission was given.
I think it would be better if the channel owner would be admin @ o.o. Not only in this case, but in any other.
Greets Marcus
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
The best way of understanding this problem is in a historical sense. The first thing to point out is how dynamic our teams are. One day you have 20 people trying to participate and the next day there is only 4. Meaning that turnouts in the artwork team are high and change very frequently. Independently of their reasons, it seems to me that in the past there were members who thought it appropriate to have a closer connection with the marketing team since much of what we do deals with the promotion of our project and distribution. However, this is not the current state and mind of the team, which is now reduced in numbers again. It also does not match the current ideas about participation with other teams. The fact that henne did not make the change before only allowed our team to stay together and make plans that further expand our desire to collaborate in more areas than just marketing. It seems to me that, in the past, the thought was the we did not want to do more than just a wallpaper and marketing artwork. Today our aim deals with more areas where design can be integrated and to follow current trends in computing artwork will only show that we need to be our own team and stay that way for some time. In summary, the current participants of our team feel that it is better to have our own IRC channel as opposed to former intentions to change that. To follow the current desires of this team is a wise decision. Let's please do so. As far as having the owners receive administrative rights, that should be done as well. I am not sure why Michael did not get those once he founded the channel. Thank you Andy (anditosan) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:17 +0100, Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi again.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back.
http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor...
and most have rethought their decision since then
Sorry, I did not find any information that the decision has been reverted. I have just noticed that there was an action, that we agreed on, which still needs to be taken.
If I recall correctly, one of the tasks was that the artwork team would consult with the marketing team to mutually agree to merge together. That hasn't happened in any official capacity. Also, the decision in the artwork team meeting (which I do recall) is quite stale now, I think more than one year ago. It would have been more diplomatic to say "hey guys, we have an overlooked task. Do we want to do this?" because as people have said here, some re-thought and didn't support the merge after first supporting it. There was no official decision to "revert." There were conversations all over the place where many people expressed misgivings about merging, both on the marketing and artwork sides. I have mixed feelings because yes, we really need to reduce the number of channels that exist overall in openSUSE and at the same time, putting artwork under marketing is misleading for the reasons Michael gives.
Could you please point out the relevant thread/logs (I don't mean the current comments on that topic).
@Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team.
I formed the room after seeking permission from -project by coolo and the artwork ML and permission was given.
I think it would be better if the channel owner would be admin @ o.o. Not only in this case, but in any other.
In the olden days, we definitely behaved like the WIld West and everyone created and registered their own channels. These days, we are moving in a different direction by getting as many channels as we can under the same administrative umbrella. There are a number of good advantages, and sharing administration with admin@o.o wouldn't necessarily remove Michael from administrative status. Just would increase the number of people who can administer the channel. Important to remember that while individuals may register openSUSE channels, there is a branding awareness and people who visit a channel don't necessarily know that the channel is not "owned" by openSUSE. Technically, openSUSE Project does have the right to go to Freenode and demand ownership be transferred to them. Freenode provides for this and recognizes the branding issue that organizations face. These are two separate issues: 1. Should we merge? I think this discussion should be re-opened if enough people feel it warrants a discussion. I'm personally comfortable with leaving it as is instead of putting it under -marketing channel. Although, my personal preference is to move ALL non-technical channels into -Project so that everyone can join in and collaborate on various topics. We have a number of potential contributors out there who are out of the loop by not knowing or seeing the right channels. (KDE theming brought up in this thread is an example of one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.) For some time now, the Project has been working on merging channels and mailing lists. It's a growing complaint out there that we have too many channels, too many mailing lists, etc. 2. Who should own/administrate the channel? (Theoretically, even this can be divided into two sub-questions.) Seems to be a hotbutton issue here. Bryen
Greets Marcus
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 8:27 AM, Bryen M Yunashko
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:17 +0100, Marcus Moeller wrote:
Hi again.
There has been an official discussion together with henne, where we agreed on that.
Sorry, but we does not include me, and it seems any other that is currently populating artwork channel.
Idea to unify channels is fine, but I don't see benefit in forcing artwork members in marketing communications. Who wants that is already present there.
It has been discussed a while back.
http://community.opensuse.org/meetings/opensuse-artwork/2011/opensuse-artwor...
and most have rethought their decision since then
Sorry, I did not find any information that the decision has been reverted. I have just noticed that there was an action, that we agreed on, which still needs to be taken.
If I recall correctly, one of the tasks was that the artwork team would consult with the marketing team to mutually agree to merge together. That hasn't happened in any official capacity.
Also, the decision in the artwork team meeting (which I do recall) is quite stale now, I think more than one year ago. It would have been more diplomatic to say "hey guys, we have an overlooked task. Do we want to do this?" because as people have said here, some re-thought and didn't support the merge after first supporting it.
There was no official decision to "revert." There were conversations all over the place where many people expressed misgivings about merging, both on the marketing and artwork sides.
I have mixed feelings because yes, we really need to reduce the number of channels that exist overall in openSUSE and at the same time, putting artwork under marketing is misleading for the reasons Michael gives.
Could you please point out the relevant thread/logs (I don't mean the current comments on that topic).
@Michael In general I would prefer if IRC channels are not registered by individual members, but by the openSUSE admin team.
I formed the room after seeking permission from -project by coolo and the artwork ML and permission was given.
I think it would be better if the channel owner would be admin @ o.o. Not only in this case, but in any other.
In the olden days, we definitely behaved like the WIld West and everyone created and registered their own channels. These days, we are moving in a different direction by getting as many channels as we can under the same administrative umbrella. There are a number of good advantages, and sharing administration with admin@o.o wouldn't necessarily remove Michael from administrative status. Just would increase the number of people who can administer the channel.
Important to remember that while individuals may register openSUSE channels, there is a branding awareness and people who visit a channel don't necessarily know that the channel is not "owned" by openSUSE. Technically, openSUSE Project does have the right to go to Freenode and demand ownership be transferred to them. Freenode provides for this and recognizes the branding issue that organizations face.
These are two separate issues:
1. Should we merge? I think this discussion should be re-opened if enough people feel it warrants a discussion. I'm personally comfortable with leaving it as is instead of putting it under -marketing channel. Although, my personal preference is to move ALL non-technical channels into -Project so that everyone can join in and collaborate on various topics. We have a number of potential contributors out there who are out of the loop by not knowing or seeing the right channels. (KDE theming brought up in this thread is an example of one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.)
For some time now, the Project has been working on merging channels and mailing lists. It's a growing complaint out there that we have too many channels, too many mailing lists, etc.
2. Who should own/administrate the channel? (Theoretically, even this can be divided into two sub-questions.) Seems to be a hotbutton issue here.
Bryen
Greets Marcus
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
I think Bryen points out something very important, the need to collaborate more closely with each other and also the need to define our teams in the light of their current stand. Surely there are teams that need to define themselves and if it seems to be that their reach and aim line up better with other teams, they should follow a merge. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Hi again. ...
These are two separate issues:
1. Should we merge? I think this discussion should be re-opened if enough people feel it warrants a discussion. I'm personally comfortable with leaving it as is instead of putting it under -marketing channel. Although, my personal preference is to move ALL non-technical channels into -Project so that everyone can join in and collaborate on various topics. We have a number of potential contributors out there who are out of the loop by not knowing or seeing the right channels. (KDE theming brought up in this thread is an example of one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.)
For some time now, the Project has been working on merging channels and mailing lists. It's a growing complaint out there that we have too many channels, too many mailing lists, etc.
I think we should at least involve Yaloki in that discussion, as he initially brought up that topic. (CC-ed him to this thread)
2. Who should own/administrate the channel? (Theoretically, even this can be divided into two sub-questions.) Seems to be a hotbutton issue here.
If that's not the case right now, definitely the admin team and not an individual person. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
Hi again.
...
These are two separate issues:
1. Should we merge? I think this discussion should be re-opened if enough people feel it warrants a discussion. I'm personally comfortable with leaving it as is instead of putting it under -marketing channel. Although, my personal preference is to move ALL non-technical channels into -Project so that everyone can join in and collaborate on various topics. We have a number of potential contributors out there who are out of the loop by not knowing or seeing the right channels. (KDE theming brought up in this thread is an example of one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.)
For some time now, the Project has been working on merging channels and mailing lists. It's a growing complaint out there that we have too many channels, too many mailing lists, etc.
I have set up a poll on connect: https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/MarcusMoeller/42183/should-the-op... It is valid for one week and you need to log-in to vote. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
I voted, and left a comment. I think the two groups should be kept
separate. They are actually two different entities even though they
are very involved with one another.
On Sun, Dec 2, 2012 at 1:53 AM, Victor hck
I have set up a poll on connect:
done! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
-- God bless ! Scott DuBois www.ROGUEHORSE.com openSUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
On 2012-12-02 13:40:45 (-0800), DuBois, Scott L.
I voted, and left a comment. I think the two groups should be kept separate. They are actually two different entities even though they are very involved with one another.
And both are low-traffic. Separate channels means that there will be missed opportunities of collaboration or exchange of information. Same goes for mailing-lists. We have so many channels and mailing-lists that there is a high loss of information (can't subscribe to all of them, can we?). At least that's the idea behind merging the two channels into one ;) cheers -- -o) Pascal Bleser /\\ http://opensuse.org -- we haz green _\_v http://fosdem.org -- we haz conf
Hi again.
...
These are two separate issues:
1. Should we merge? I think this discussion should be re-opened if enough people feel it warrants a discussion. I'm personally comfortable with leaving it as is instead of putting it under -marketing channel. Although, my personal preference is to move ALL non-technical channels into -Project so that everyone can join in and collaborate on various topics. We have a number of potential contributors out there who are out of the loop by not knowing or seeing the right channels. (KDE theming brought up in this thread is an example of one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.)
For some time now, the Project has been working on merging channels and mailing lists. It's a growing complaint out there that we have too many channels, too many mailing lists, etc.
I have set up a poll on connect:
https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/polls/read/MarcusMoeller/42183/should-the-op...
It is valid for one week and you need to log-in to vote.
The poll result is quite clear, so I guess we can just keep it as it is and re-discuss the topic in a year or so. In general, I am not very satisfied with the connect poll system, as it's somewhat anonymous. I would prefer if it's visible who voted on what, especially in a small group like this. I would like to suggest to do a short +1 voting on an IRC meeting. Greets Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
I'm agree with M.Fox! Why merged? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Andres Silva -
Bryen M Yunashko -
DuBois, Scott L. -
Marcus Moeller -
Michael Fox -
Pascal Bleser -
Rajko -
Victor hck