On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 02:36 +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:57 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

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Hi folks,

There's been a bit of noise in the past couple of months advocating a merge of both the artwork mailing list and artwork IRC channel along with the multimedia list into the marketing channel/list.

Hi,

While I believe that multimedia and artwork could be folded into a new possible opensuse-design with a responsible leader to work alongside and coordinate efforts with marketing, I would never merge artwork and multimedia with marketing.

Perhaps you misread the subject line, but the line is "mailing lists" not teams. This discussion is not about merging teams. The discussion is about merging a place where all voices are seen rather than the disintegration we've seen in the past year. Too many people are complaining that they don't know which mailing list to sign up to because everything is so spread out. Too many times, we tell people "If you want to know about this, go here. If you want to know about that, go there." It's become too daunting and intimidating to many newcomers.

...

Many feel that we're too spread out and thus not hearing enough or being aware of what everyone is doing. As such, that means it becomes harder to build momentum to grow our community. Worse yet, when not merged properly, we create duplication of efforts.

Could you please provide a thread that represents such claims, so we can have an objective view on what 'many' really means and what the ideas expressed are, so we can actually take a serious look at it?

It is repeated comment and discussion topic that has been brought up a number of times in -project meetings, -board meetings, -marketing meetings and even in IRC channels when there are no meetings. And in many of those discussions, even artwork team members have been present. I would advise you to pore through the meeting logs for at a minimum the past 4 months, though its really been brought up even before then.

About community growth, so a monolithic stack merging completly different lists will make it more attractive to new contributors?

I would argue that before the artwork mailing list was split off there was a great deal of artwork discussions on the marketing list where it used to be. And a lot of good collaboration and interested folks participating. Looking at the archives for the artwork mailing list, you can see that the noise has dropped considerably since the splitoff. We'd like to combine and re-start that noise decibel level again.

Or would just center more power in the hands of a few hand picked ?

What power are you referring to? All that is proposed is a merging of the mailing lists. Nothing said at ALL about merging teams. How are you able to infer something that wasn't even brought up in this thread? This is a silly attempt to create controversy where none existed. In the past these mailing lists were all together and then it got split off in the last year and people are saying in retrospect, maybe this wasn't the wisest thing to do because now we're unable to keep higher track of what's going on everywhere. Too many mailing lists = less awareness and involvement. At least once a month, sometimes more, many of us who are even long-timers have been surprised to discover yet another mailing list or channel that we didn't know was in existence because far too often we keep spreading and splitting when there's clear overlap of topics in many areas.

...

However, before we do any merging, I have stated clearly to others that the ultimate decision rests with the artwork team. I am definitely in favor of a merge, but would like to hear your thoughts in the next few days about the pros and cons of merging together.

It sounds that the decision is already taken. I make Jos words mine now... "You are killing openSUSE".

Funny how you interpret things. Immediately after my paragraph in which I state that the decision to merge rests solely on the artwork team, you state the decision is already made? Seriously, Nelson. Why are you attempting to stifle discussion? Are you really anti-community to the point that you don't want people to discuss pros and cons? No one made any decision. No where is it stated that such a decision has been made. People in various teams and meetings have brought this topic up consistently and recently asked me to accept the action item to bring it up for discussion amongst the three mailing lists and see where things go from there. No one in any of these teams is saying "We're going to merge whether you like it or not." What's killing openSUSE isn't the open discussion that we're attempting to create here, but your diabolical attempt to stifle open discussions. At first I assumed maybe you misread because English isn't your native language. But considering conversations I've had with you and I know you have an excellent handle on the English language in addition to recent comments you made in -pt channel which were quite libelous, I can only assume you are attempting to misguide readers here into thinking this thread is something other than what is stated in the original post to serve your own personal satisfaction of only discussions that meet your approval are allowed to be conducted. I sincerely hope people ignore the rhetoric that you are creating here and focus squarely on the request to discuss the pros and cons of such a merge. If the artwork team feels such a merge would prove unproductive, then we will recognize that. If you are opposed to a merge of the mailing lists, I (as well as others) respect it. And we'd love to hear your opinions as to why it should be so. But attempts to derail discussions and change the focus of the topic to something completely off-the-wall can't possibly garner respect. If you feel that discussions should not be allowed, then feel free to state that unequivocally instead of couching it in an attempt to start a flamewar by misdirecting other readers of this thread. Bryen

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Thanks! Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Marketing Team

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On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

On Mon, 2011-03-21 at 02:36 +0000, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 12:57 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko wrote:

...

Hi folks,

There's been a bit of noise in the past couple of months advocating a merge of both the artwork mailing list and artwork IRC channel along with the multimedia list into the marketing channel/list.

Hi,

While I believe that multimedia and artwork could be folded into a new possible opensuse-design with a responsible leader to work alongside and coordinate efforts with marketing, I would never merge artwork and multimedia with marketing.

Dear Sir, This will be the last thing you will ear from me...

Perhaps you misread the subject line, but the line is "mailing lists" not teams.  This discussion is not about merging teams.  The discussion

I haven't spoken in merging teams, but instead in merging maybe the multimedia and artwork under the same list, never with marketing for obvious reasons related to the differences of workflow (at least they seem obvious to me).

is about merging a place where all voices are seen rather than the disintegration we've seen in the past year.  Too many people are complaining that they don't know which mailing list to sign up to because everything is so spread out.

Too many times, we tell people "If you want to know about this, go here. If you want to know about that, go there."  It's become too daunting and intimidating to many newcomers.

I'm sure sending people to look for themselves in some of the lists with most traffic is more user friendly.

...

...

Many feel that we're too spread out and thus not hearing enough or being aware of what everyone is doing.  As such, that means it becomes harder to build momentum to grow our community.  Worse yet, when not merged properly, we create duplication of efforts.

Could you please provide a thread that represents such claims, so we can have an objective view on what 'many' really means and what the ideas expressed are, so we can actually take a serious look at it?

It is repeated comment and discussion topic that has been brought up a number of times in -project meetings, -board meetings, -marketing meetings and even in IRC channels when there are no meetings.   And in

I probably missed it on opensuse-project. Mind to share a link ?

many of those discussions, even artwork team members have been present. I would advise you to pore through the meeting logs for at a minimum the past 4 months, though its really been brought up even before then.

That's really helpful.

...

About community growth, so a monolithic stack merging completly different lists will make it more attractive to new contributors?

I would argue that before the artwork mailing list was split off there was a great deal of artwork discussions on the marketing list where it used to be.  And a lot of good collaboration and interested folks

Used to be? But someone felt the need for splitting it... I only have to take my hat before such person for doing the right thing.

participating.  Looking at the archives for the artwork mailing list, you can see that the noise has dropped considerably since the splitoff. We'd like to combine and re-start that noise decibel level again.

I'm thankful the 'noise' has dropped, that's only good. A bit more of traffic would be nice though... But I don't see any real commitments in advertising Artwork by Marketing or helping them out, instead I see them trying to boss them around and 'own' them.

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 Or would just center more power in the hands of a few hand picked ?

What power are you referring to?  All that is proposed is a merging of the mailing lists.  Nothing said at ALL about merging teams.  How are you able to infer something that wasn't even brought up in this thread? This is a silly attempt to create controversy where none existed.   In

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Edmond Burke

the past these mailing lists were all together and then it got split off in the last year and people are saying in retrospect, maybe this wasn't the wisest thing to do because now we're unable to keep higher track of what's going on everywhere.  Too many mailing lists = less awareness and involvement.

Maybe you should invest your time in improving the management processes (if you use any) to fix such situations and work them out instead of looking for the easier solution that brings benefit to no one and actually might have undesired side effects and collateral damage. I'm sure you have contemplated them all (after all that's the most important part of marketing)... When a human being is sick, he seeks for a medic... An organization when it's sick looks for Marketing, and you already stated some of the symptoms, so please work them out... It's better to seek help on an infection before it gets gangrenous and needs amputation.

At least once a month, sometimes more, many of us who are even long-timers have been surprised to discover yet another mailing list or channel that we didn't know was in existence because far too often we keep spreading and splitting when there's clear overlap of topics in many areas.

Nice organization and management skills...

...

...

However, before we do any merging, I have stated clearly to others that the ultimate decision rests with the artwork team.  I am definitely in favor of a merge, but would like to hear your thoughts in the  next few days about the pros and cons of merging together.

It sounds that the decision is already taken. I make Jos words mine now... "You are killing openSUSE".

Funny how you interpret things.   Immediately after my paragraph in which I state that the decision to merge rests solely on the artwork team, you state the decision is already made?   Seriously, Nelson.  Why are you attempting to stifle discussion?  Are you really anti-community

No my friend... just trying to point the right way... if that's anti-community, then I'll gladly embrace such title.

to the point that you don't want people to discuss pros and cons?  No one made any decision.  No where is it stated that such a decision has been made.  People in various teams and meetings have brought this topic up consistently and recently asked me to accept the action item to bring it up for discussion amongst the three mailing lists and see where things go from there.   No one in any of these teams is saying "We're going to merge whether you like it or not."

The pros and cons of what? The root of the problem (according to previous statements of you) seem to be lack of organization and operational procedures... Where's the discussion of that?

What's killing openSUSE isn't the open discussion that we're attempting to create here, but your diabolical attempt to stifle open discussions. At first I assumed maybe you misread because English isn't your native language.  But considering conversations I've had with you and I know you have an excellent handle on the English language in addition to recent comments you made in -pt channel which were quite libelous, I can

Days like this are to rare to be handled with such heavy handed words as 'libelous'. You should give an example of the defamations I did... Maybe you don't like some of my political comments, but in most cases I'm adressing people I know in person... I wonder if they feel the same defamatory behavior you seem to point. You know, there is legal background to handle defamatory behavior ;)

only assume you are attempting to misguide readers here into thinking this thread is something other than what is stated in the original post to serve your own personal satisfaction of only discussions that meet your approval are allowed to be conducted.

I don't need to misguide no one, I don't even need to encourage them to think by themselves because they already do ;)

I sincerely hope people ignore the rhetoric that you are creating here and focus squarely on the request to discuss the pros and cons of such a merge.  If the artwork team feels such a merge would prove unproductive,

Off topic: This reminds me of one of the scenes from Pulp Fiction: "Don't be a square" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKxEvN8LETA

then we will recognize that.    If you are opposed to a merge of the mailing lists, I (as well as others) respect it.  And we'd love to hear your opinions as to why it should be so.  But attempts to derail discussions and change the focus of the topic to something completely off-the-wall can't possibly garner respect.

No need for my opinion, I'm sure our fellow artists know what to do and will speak out for themselves!

If you feel that discussions should not be allowed, then  feel free to state that unequivocally instead of couching it in an attempt to start a flamewar by misdirecting other readers of this thread.

No my friend, I love a good in-depth discussion... what I don't like is people to underestimate others intelligence and needs.

Bryen

Now the good news, I'm informing the board later on that I'm revoking my status as member by the following reasons: * I'm a defender of rapists (according to our beloved community leader and your pal); * I'm the destroyer of openSUSE (according to our community leader); * A diabolical devil worshiper (according to you, though I leave that for God to decide upon); * Anti-Communty fellow (according to you); Get some fireworks and make a party! Over and _OUT_! NM -- Nelson Marques /* As cicatrizes lembram-nos de onde estivemos, mas não ditam para onde vamos */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

<Sorry> -1 I subscribe to both lists and believe that it is **NOT** an interesting fusion. Some subjects such as GSoC, aid in an article in the wiki and others are not interesting to the artwork </sorry> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 14:12, Raul wrote:

I subscribe to both lists and believe that it is an interesting fusion. Some subjects such as GSoC, aid in an article in the wiki and others are not interesting to the artwork

-- Raul Libório http://rauhmaru.blogspot.com/ rauhmarutsªhotmailºcom  openSUSE Member | Linux User #4444581 "There are only 10 types of people in the world - Those who understand binary, and those who don't." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

Le 22/03/2011 00:23, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

think its a bit issue anyway. Merging with with multimedia, how do you all feel about that, I haven't seen much on mm..

It's probably a good idea. Also changing a bit the list description on the wiki. Now it seems a general help list. I personnally think it should be a more specialized list, for people wanting to make artwork/multimedia files *for* openSUSE and not *with* openSUSE, but of course it's only my opinion :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

On 2011-03-22 Henne wrote:

Hey,

On 03/22/2011 12:23 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Merging with with multimedia, how do you all feel about that, I haven't seen much on mm..

Apparently you also didn't read the list descriptions ;-)

opensuse-multimedia is about discussion about multimedia in the openSUSE distribution. Things like: How do I encode my video to an mkv? I have a problem with my jack sink etc.

opensuse-artwork is about discussions about artwork for the openSUSE project. Things like: We need a promo DVD cover! Can you draw me a Geeko with a tütü? etc.

2 completely different things so no merging material :)

Ok, so both things won't happen :D

Henne

Le 21/03/2011 03:36, Nelson Marques a écrit :

While I believe that multimedia and artwork could be folded into a new possible opensuse-design with a responsible leader to work alongside and coordinate efforts with marketing, I would never merge artwork and multimedia with marketing.

yes. And we should probably modify a bit the list description in the wiki to say that the design list is mostly for work on openSUSE related desgin, not for general help. Low traffic in these lists *is a good thing* marketting is often to noisy when somebody have to make a real work. We need a list for technical comments. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xgxog7_clip-l-ombre-et-la-lumiere-3-bad-pig... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGgv_ZFtV14 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 21. marts 2011 01:57:43 skrev Bryen M. Yunashko:

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There's been a bit of noise in the past couple of months advocating a merge of both the artwork mailing list and artwork IRC channel along with the multimedia list into the marketing channel/list.

Many feel that we're too spread out and thus not hearing enough or being aware of what everyone is doing.  As such, that means it becomes harder to build momentum to grow our community.  Worse yet, when not merged properly, we create duplication of efforts.

However, before we do any merging, I have stated clearly to others that the ultimate decision rests with the artwork team.  I am definitely in favor of a merge, but would like to hear your thoughts in the  next few days about the pros and cons of merging together.

I vote nay for a merge with marketing ML.

I think there's not a very big overlap - if any - between -artwork and - marketing.

And last time I checked -marketing was very high traffic and a netiquette nightmare (top-posting, bad quoting etc.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

To answer the last point first, top-posting seems to be the default across many mail clients and is increasingly standard practice on many mailing lists, and certainly in some places it is de riguer. Likewise bad quoting. Varying netiquette is really quite irrelevant. The artwork list certainly is very quiet, and then when an art issue is raised, there's the problem of cross posting (and the breach of netiquette! :) ) when one wishes to involve both art and marketing members. I had initially felt the merge might be a good idea, but I have quite a few reservations. Volume could be a concern. Some of what is discussed in Marketing will be of very little interest to many of the Art team. The converse may occasionally be true, and having additional people all putting their two cents worth in as to the particularities of color and layout might not always be productive! Certainly we are all capable of filtering our email and making it manageable, but large volumes are still not good for many people. For someone purely interested in making artwork, who doesn't want to know about all the other stuff - writing and promotion and so on - that goes through Marketing, it could be a disincentive to participation. I'm very keen to see more interaction between marketing and artwork, in particular, for the art team to be closely involved in decision making early in the marketing process, as well as in the development of collaborative resources. One solution would be simply for Art team people to join the Marketing, so that they are on board for all creative discussions and are aware of what is happening, but to also retain the Art list for artwork-specific discussion (eg, discussing work in progress, where more focus is needed). cheers, Helen -- IRC: helen_au helen.south@opensuse.org helensouth.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag 21 März 2011, 12:40:50 schrieb Javier Llorente:

El Lunes, 21 de Marzo de 2011 01:57:43 Bryen M. Yunashko escribió:

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Hi folks,

The marketing mailing list tends to be noisy and irrelevant to artwork matters. IMHO, artwork requests should be sent to this mailing list. Furthermore, it would be better to try not to start artwork discussions in - marketing but rather here. I have also seen that marketing people have designed some stuff. Perhaps those could also join the artwork team? :-) +1

klaas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-artwork+help@opensuse.org