On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 25.07.2011 21:28, schrieb Marcus Moeller:

...

I am not sure if it's really good to feed the trolls.

None of any patent infringements by Linux are confirmed.

I know. And I don´t believe that any of them are really existant at all, but image a not so savvy user, who´s a bit concerned about the whole Microsoft-patent-trolling story and isn´t sure if he or she should use Linux. I just want to spread this, to encourage our Ambassadors to take away the fear of these peoples.

Yeah, the "patent infringements" are just FUD if you ask me, but some people also believing in Young Earth Creationism instead of evolution ;-)

-- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

I am worried though about the contrary, the effects of this on the rest of the FOSS community. At least in my region, we got some flak from the previous deals, and I feel this one will not be an exception. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 25.07.2011 21:50, schrieb Izabel Valverde:

It's a business model and we should know how to live with it...

+1 See my post before -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

There is a positive look to it too, more money for SUSE should mean more investments for openSUSE which would mean we(community) can use it to promote openSUSE better and more aggressively.. imo On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:34 AM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 25.07.2011 21:50, schrieb Izabel Valverde:

...

It's a business model and we should know how to live with it...

+1

See my post before

-- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com

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On Monday 25 Jul 2011 21:04:37 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 25.07.2011 21:50, schrieb Izabel Valverde:

...

It's a business model and we should know how to live with it...

+1

See my post before

I am getting messages in the wrong order, this particular email arrived some 10 minutes after the replies to it - any ideas why? Personally there are purists and their are realists - the purists use GNUSense because it has absolutely zero Non-Oss in it. But lets me real here how many people only download music in Ogg Format? How many people only watich movies in Ogg Video? Microsoft and Windows are here to stay and like it or not we have to deal with them, now we either do it legally or we can stick our head in the sand. Let those who stick their head in the sand and think Linux for Geeks not for everybody should go away. We have a good product and we need to promote it, if we have arrangements in with Microsoft to make it more compatible then I believe its a good thing. Can Microsoft release a Linux Distro - I don't know.. Mac adopted a FreeBSD fork, could Microsoft do the same and just release a Desktop Manager like Aqua on MacOSX? Doubt it - would require so much of a rewrite of their software it would hurt their investers wallet.. So do we have anything to be worried about? -- Kind Regards Stuart Tanner Bolton Linux 24 Vincent Street Bolton BL1 4SA Tel: +44(0)1204 410474 Mob: +44(0)7868 028028 www.bolin.org.uk Distributing openSUSE in the UK Registered Linux User: 529825 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 26.07.2011 00:03, schrieb Ricardo Chung:

...

...

fork, could Microsoft do the same and just release a Desktop Manager like Aqua on MacOSX? Doubt it - would require so much of a rewrite of their software it would hurt their investers wallet.. So do we have anything to be worried about? Nothing is written in the stone. MS is making a lot of changes and have enough money to invest on a Linux derivative for their own business. They recognize

Can Microsoft release a Linux Distro - I don't know.. Mac adopted a FreeBSD their legacy security issues and .... They are building interoperability labs and integrating some open source software to their own products.

Don't get me wrong. I am not defending or advocating for any point of view just telling business models goes where the money is easier to get and keep.

Standard people takes what is not too complicated to understand for using. I cannot blame them because of it.

Absolutely. Microsoft needs to make money. And if Linux will help them to make money, Linux is the tool of choice. Remember, that Microsoft´s home market, the desktop area, is rotting. The future belongs to tablets. So Microsoft is making a big shift from the desktop market to the office market. Microsoft´s Cash cow of the future is Microsoft Office and some cloud products (even if I won´t be using Microsoft´s cloud products, other people will) I think, if Microsoft want to survive, they have to live with Linux. -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 25.07.2011 22:31, schrieb Stuart Tanner:

I am getting messages in the wrong order, this particular email arrived some 10 minutes after the replies to it - any ideas why?

I think it has to do with the crappy hotmail servers. Shame on you, Windows Live.

Personally there are purists and their are realists - the purists use GNUSense because it has absolutely zero Non-Oss in it.

But lets me real here how many people only download music in Ogg Format?

How many people only watich movies in Ogg Video?

Microsoft and Windows are here to stay and like it or not we have to deal with them, now we either do it legally or we can stick our head in the sand.

Let those who stick their head in the sand and think Linux for Geeks not for everybody should go away.

We have a good product and we need to promote it, if we have arrangements in with Microsoft to make it more compatible then I believe its a good thing.

Can Microsoft release a Linux Distro - I don't know.. Mac adopted a FreeBSD fork, could Microsoft do the same and just release a Desktop Manager like Aqua on MacOSX? Doubt it - would require so much of a rewrite of their software it would hurt their investers wallet.. So do we have anything to be worried about?

Right. First they ignore you Then they laugh at you then they fight you then you win And yes, the fact that Microsoft extends the contract, and that Microsoft is contributing to the Linux-kernel is the perfect sign, that the last part ("then you win") is there. And yes, we have live with Microsoft, and Microsoft have to live with us. I wish this would working without any FUD and wars in future. thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 25.07.2011 21:45, schrieb Sebastian Oliva:

I am worried though about the contrary, the effects of this on the rest of the FOSS community. At least in my region, we got some flak from the previous deals, and I feel this one will not be an exception.

yeah, this is one of the main problem. From the corporate point of view it´s kinda great to have such deal, but the community point of view is much much worse. I sometimes post to an Linux-forum and sometimes talk about the patent-deal. That the other members call me and SUSE "idiots and traitors on open source and the FLOSS-community" is normal. I´m really disappointed about that :-( -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

2011/7/27 Jos Poortvliet :

On 2011-07-25 Kim wrote:

...

Am 25.07.2011 21:45, schrieb Sebastian Oliva:

...

I am worried though about the contrary, the effects of this on the rest of the FOSS community. At least in my region, we got some flak from the previous deals, and I feel this one will not be an exception.

yeah, this is one of the main problem. From the corporate point of view it´s kinda great to have such deal, but the community point of view is much much worse.

Well a few tin-foil-hats still complain but let's be real. This deal is an extension (the second) of a deal which was started 5 years ago. Everyone screamed blood and murder and has the sky fallen due to this deal? No, it has not. Nothing bad happened*. So I say - business as usual, boring, nothing to see here. It's a corporate thing, let SUSE do their thing...

...

I sometimes post to an Linux-forum and sometimes talk about the patent-deal. That the other members call me and SUSE "idiots and traitors on open source and the FLOSS-community" is normal.

See * - they are hypocrites or just don't know what they talk about.

...

I´m really disappointed about that :-(

*sure things did happen... Those complainy people DO enjoy the benefits of the SUSE-Microsoft deal every time their Libre/OpenOffice reads a doc or docx file, every time they hang their laptop in a windows network, run linux on HyperV or Windows in a VM under linux etc etc. Even if they use Fedora or Ubuntu or another distro. Because none of this code is a fork of anything else; none of this code is under a CLA; and all this code is actively contributed back to Free Software projects. Through SUSE, it seems to me, MS is a better FOSS citizen than some large linux distributions themselves...

Not to say I believe MS does this out of their good heart. It's a business which needs to make money. And because of that sometimes does stupid and evil stuff. Just like Canonical, Red Hat and SUSE. You shouldn't believe the PR - a company has no morals. People do.

We just have the luck to have companies who make money on doing the right thing, like SUSE and Red Hat.

I really want to blog about it but I don't know were to start, also I have no problem call hypocrites hypocrites, especially when most of the people defending Free Software and blame Bad MS carry an Apple iSomething with them, but this could raise a flame war. I once spoke about it in a conference when I was asked about that and I raised hell. For some reason people believe that ideologically Apple is closer to Linux than MS, I really don't get that, I strongly believe the opposite, anyway, to much negative energy. As I said before, many people of Free Software when it comes to thinking are working with Proprietary Software in their minds. Kostas -- http://opensuse.gr http://amb.opensuse.gr http://own.opensuse.gr http://warlordfff.tk me I am not me ------- Time travel is possible, you just need to know the right aliens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 26.07.2011 10:27, schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

The patent side is really not the big part of the deal, it's about interoperability and selling - making customers happy and earning money for SUSE;).

I know, but for a home user, this isn´t so important then the patent side (okay, in Europe, the patent side isn´t a big problem, but I think in the USA, people are thinking about it.) I have read a lot about people who are very confused about Microsoft and their patent trolling. We as the openSUSE Ambassadors should at least try to take away the potential fear of these users. thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 26.07.2011 14:00, schrieb Andreas Jaeger:

Let's not market the patent side at all.

If we promote the patent side, we will just have lengthy discussions with open source advocates.

sure, just have a look at Pro-Linux.de. I read a few comments on the 2006 deal of Novell, and it was really... unfriendly. Promoting the patent side inside the Linux/Open source community doesn´t make sense at all. The people who really know about the details, are also know about the fact, that Microsoft is just trolling about the patents. I don´t believe that they really have such patents. They just want to make us (and our consumers) unsure about Linux and take revenue from the Linux companies.

If we promote it, we tell people that there might be something fishy - and there's nothing fishy about patents in open source.

That´s all a question about how we promote it. When we tell people, that SUSE´s having a contract with Microsoft to protect our customers from such patent stories, they will believe that there such patent issues. But if we tell them, that there aren´t such patent issues, and Microsoft is just trolling about, they easily understand: SUSE is not doing a deal with Microsoft to protect customers from patent issues, SUSE is doing a deal with Microsoft to protect customers from Microsoft and arbitrary attacks against Linux. That is my main concern. Quite frankly, even if we know about the non-existence of such patents, other people doesn´t do. And quite frankly, there some trolls outside on the internet who are distributing comments like "Don´t use Linux! Linux is just a crappy piece of software with many Microsoft patents inside. Oh praise Windows!" I know, such people needs to get real help in mental institutions, but something common against such allegations would help at least me enormously. I know, don´t feed the trolls, but sometimes it´s time for some flaming. Arguments against their theories to convince the crowd about the non-existence of such patents would kill the joy of the trolls.

Microsoft will not go after e.g. Fedora, Debian or openSUSE users.

Ambassadors, have you really seen potential fear here? Then let's create a common language against that - but not one that our competition can use against us,

If a common language is really created, it should be a work of *all* Linux distributors and projects. At least the main distributors. thanks -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 26.07.2011 18:26, schrieb Stuart Tanner:

How do we as ambassadors and as members go about doing this? Overcoming all these myths that Linux is hard or Microsoft Destroyed it?

That´s a /real/ issue. I tried to convince some friends about Linux. The only problem, is that for them, Linux is just a operating system for nerds and geeks. And that´s just a very friendly answer. Do you know Heise.de? It´s a German computer news network and I thinks it´s one of the trolls´ capitol. That people call you "too poor to buy a *real* operating system (like WIndows)" is kinda normal their. And yes, such comments stuck on people´s mind. We have to promote openSUSE, right? So, we have also to promote the *whole* FLOSS-community. Every project benefits from the other projects. I mean, Linux never ever became so popular without GNU. But at the same time, GNU never ever became so popular without Linux. The same with KDE, GNOME, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org and Apache as well. So, speaking for openSUSE means actually speaking for the whole open source community. I´m part of this community, because it´s the /best/ way to create software, and it´s the fairest way between consumer and producer. But it´s also a matter of the heart. I love working together with people over the internet, and I like being part of a movement, that can make the world a better place. And we´re just doing our hobbies, we´re "just" creating software. So, promoting openSUSE && Linux is a thing I love to do. Nevertheless, it´s kinda difficult to people who are convinced about Microsoft and Windows. It´s a real challenge to me to convince these people about switching to openSUSE. And yeah, there are a lot of issues that need to be covered. Driver problems but also problems of acceptance. I know people, who are thinking Linux is a operating system for geeks and nerds, but nothing for the mainstream. And there are some people who still haven´t any clue about Linux and even don´t want to because they have zero knowledge about what Linux is, or what an operating system is. That´s not the problem here. But imagine, these people still have the insolence of mocking Linux as "an do-it-yourself-operating system for people without real hobbies or real life". Okay, it´s their good right but if these people then still call *you* as a Linux-supporter a hobby-less mother********* bastard, I´m really disappointing about that. But I think I´m a bit away from topic. So, the only *real* solution of breaking the myths against Linux is something like the Truth Happens campaign was. i´m afraid to say, but the best way is to put Linux into the mainstream and establish Linux on the desktop. Yeah, actually, the desktop market is just _one_ part of the comprehensive place of selling computers, but it´s (at least for the next 2 years) still the market, which is most used by users. I don´t think, that Microsoft will be successfully on the tablet market, and I don´t believe that they will change something about Linux´s success on the server market. And on netbooks, I see a really bright future for Linux too, because it´s free, it´s flexible and it´s running on cheap, low-level hardware as well as on the world´s strongest super computers. So, the best way to make Linux accepted by a wide crowd is to put it into the mainstream. And this means, to cover normal users issues, like a not running printer, or creating a DSL-configuration. And I can understand that most of us nerds think about such problems not very positive. I don´t either. Quite frankly, I hate covering such issues, because I often have to fix Windows-machines. And that´s very painful to me, and I´m always lucky being back on my Linux-machine. But for these people, Windows delivers the best solution, because they can get help by almost their whole family. And be serious: How many people do you have in your family who have enough knowledge about Linux to act as a hobby admin? I haven´t any person in family, and I often try to convince them switching to Linux. But the problem is, that they´re so used to their Windows, that they don´t wanna switch to Linux, *even* if Linux would fit their needs better. And yes, you need to understand these people. I can´t this every time easily. I often just end up quitting my talk about Linux and go back to my room, where my beloved openSUSE-machine is standing. Yeah, it´s very bad behavior, but sometimes I lost the motivation to do that. Yeah, sometimes I just want to scream because I´m really disappointed about the ignorance, some people have. Long post, without long meaning. The situation is simple: Beside the need of mainstream-support we need some understanding about real world people´s problem. I spend very much time inside my room reading e-mails, answer them, or reading issues of other people, but if I go out to the big blue room, all the issues don´t count anymore. There some people who just want to *use* their machines, and not to work and work forever on them. Don´t want to configure them till they die. We also have to support these people, even if it´s kinda difficult. They don´t care, what´s new in Linux 3.0, they care about how they can write a document with LibreOffice. So, the best way to break these myths is to create a Linux-system that´s easy to use and can be understand by almost everyone. And of course, we need the support of the major computer companies out there. Sorry, for the long post, but I was currently under way. -- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org

Am 27.07.2011 01:20, schrieb Stuart Tanner:

On Tuesday 26 Jul 2011 19:26:39 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

...

How do we as ambassadors and as members go about doing this? Overcoming all these myths that Linux is hard or Microsoft Destroyed it? That´s a /real/ issue. I tried to convince some friends about Linux. The only problem, is that for them, Linux is just a operating system for nerds and geeks. And that´s just a very friendly answer. Do you know Heise.de? It´s a German computer news network and I thinks it´s one of

Am 26.07.2011 18:26, schrieb Stuart Tanner: the trolls´ capitol. I do not know this particaluar site, I do not tend to follow german troll sites :)

Well, I normally don´t do it also, but some Germans have the mentality to overreact about every single grammar mistake, the thread-opener or some one other is doing. It´s kinda funny how these people could "discuss" over 142 posts just about grammar but never about the /real/ news. (And if they do, there sometimes people, who think like: "Oh, I´m on the web, nobody knows me here, how can I start a flame?" and yes, then they do.)

Here Linux is very popular but its generally Ubuntu two weekends a month I spend time at a computer market and most people say "I use windows, I am happy with Windows and I don't want to change".

I believe in Germany, openSUSE is still number one or two, but Ubuntu is here very popular too (wait a year, until the people are so annoyed by Unity and I think then the situation will be different here ;-) )

Some people have never heard about it, find it very interesting, take a leaflet and wander off.

Some people use Ubuntu and are happy to see somebody promoting Linux.

yeah, I sometimes hear such comments too. It often happens when there´s a discussion about SUSE Studio. I sometimes give some links of my appliances around to show the people what´s possible with Studio.

...

That people call you "too poor to buy a *real* operating system (like WIndows)" is kinda normal their. I have never heard anybody use this particular statement to be truthful.

Well, yes it isn´t truthful but some people are using it, just for provocation.

...

And yes, such comments stuck on people´s mind. We have to promote openSUSE, right? So, we have also to promote the *whole* FLOSS-community. Every project benefits from the other projects. I mean, Linux never ever became so popular without GNU. But at the same time, GNU never ever became so popular without Linux. The same with KDE, GNOME, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org and Apache as well. People here look at the cost of windows and don't believe how expensive it is, but they really don't treat linux with the credability it deserves, there is a lot of people who don't believe you get anything for nothing - if its free or cheap it must be inferior.

yep. full ack. But I think this has something to do with our capitalistic society.

...

So, speaking for openSUSE means actually speaking for the whole open source community.

I´m part of this community, because it´s the /best/ way to create software, and it´s the fairest way between consumer and producer. Isn't the FSF supposed to speak for the FOSS community? But as already said their ideaologies are just too narrow for real life.

I think we´re all supposed to speak for the community, because *we´re* the community.

...

But it´s also a matter of the heart. I love working together with people over the internet, and I like being part of a movement, that can make the world a better place. And we´re just doing our hobbies, we´re "just" creating software.

I also enjoy being part of the community and promoting the retail version of the software means that the community gets some kind of payback then its good, howver how much of the money that open-slx gives to the community I don't know, they have to produce the packeging and also produce the manuals I don't know what numbers they produce, but I am only moving about 2-3 boxes per week here so it shows that its not so popular here.

I wonder in Germany what is the percentage of desktop users running openSUSE / Windows?

I don´t know, Microsoft has done a statistic in 2003 and called the problem intern the "German problem" because too many desktops are running on Linux here. That´s Microsoft own fault. They told every Linux user a communist. And then they wonder why there so many users in the home land of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels? No serious, I don´t know about the users and it´s difficult to create a _serious_ statistic.

...

So, promoting openSUSE&& Linux is a thing I love to do. Nevertheless, it´s kinda difficult to people who are convinced about Microsoft and Windows. It´s a real challenge to me to convince these people about switching to openSUSE.

Its even harder to convince them when certain computer shops install site licenced copies of Windows + Office etc on Retail Customer Computers.how can we compete?

They charge 50 GBP to install Windows + Office and openSUSE Retail costs 60 GBP,

...

And yeah, there are a lot of issues that need to be covered. Driver problems but also problems of acceptance. I know people, who are thinking Linux is a operating system for geeks and nerds, but nothing for the mainstream.

This is exactly what I want to change, but it doesn't help when those people are in the various mailing lists.

...

And there are some people who still haven´t any clue about Linux and even don´t want to because they have zero knowledge about what Linux is, or what an operating system is. That´s not the problem here. But imagine, these people still have the insolence of mocking Linux as "an do-it-yourself-operating system for people without real hobbies or real life".

Yes and that is because they have no hobbies and likely no life either !!

+1

...

Okay, it´s their good right but if these people then still call *you* as a Linux-supporter a hobby-less mother********* bastard, I´m really disappointing about that. Never been called that, most people respect me for starting a business in the first place. But I think I´m a bit away from topic.

So, the only *real* solution of breaking the myths against Linux is something like the Truth Happens campaign was.

i´m afraid to say, but the best way is to put Linux into the mainstream and establish Linux on the desktop.

We need to get governments to act to prevent legalised the Microsoft monopoly if we can get our beloved European Parliement to outlaw preinstalled OS on Computers and make people pay for Windows + Office ++ or offer Retail Linux instead maybe they might just try it because of the damage to their wallet.

I hope so. I have nothing against the OEM business, but Microsoft is sometimes acting out criminal. I think about the browser war, Microsoft forced Hewlett-Packard to sell Windows 95 *with* Internet Explorer. If they would ship W95 with Netscape, they´d lost their license. We have to avoid such things in future. At least in Europe.

MS do it slighly they ship pre-installed starter editions then after 60 days it hits your wallet.

...

Yeah, actually, the desktop market is just _one_ part of the comprehensive place of selling computers, but it´s (at least for the next 2 years) still the market, which is most used by users. I don´t think, that Microsoft will be successfully on the tablet market, and I don´t believe that they will change something about Linux´s success on the server market. And on netbooks, I see a really bright future for Linux too, because it´s free, it´s flexible and it´s running on cheap, low-level hardware as well as on the world´s strongest super computers. But the desktop market is MS core business they are using linux for the server market but sell windows desktops by the dozens to the same customers.

But then Novel (maybe now Atatchemate) is selling Microsoft Desktops along side Linux Servers.

...

So, the best way to make Linux accepted by a wide crowd is to put it into the mainstream. And this means, to cover normal users issues, like a not running printer, or creating a DSL-configuration.

Seriously people still use DSL Modems? why can't they just get a combined DSL/Ethernet router they don't cost much and they solve so many problems its crazy.

...

And I can understand that most of us nerds think about such problems not very positive. I don´t either. Quite frankly, I hate covering such issues, because I often have to fix Windows-machines. And that´s very painful to me, and I´m always lucky being back on my Linux-machine.

I have never even attempted a DSL Modem configuration under Linux either I use wifi or ethernet. Never ever done dial up under Linux.

...

But for these people, Windows delivers the best solution, because they can get help by almost their whole family. My grip on this subject is Buffalo Linux NAS Servers that need windows to load the firmware back on or perform software updates. Can't they just write a QT or GTK Utility that does the same thing. And be serious: How many people do you have in your family who have enough knowledge about Linux to act as a hobby admin? I haven´t any person in family, and I often try to convince them switching to Linux. But the problem is, that they´re so used to their Windows, that they don´t wanna switch to Linux, *even* if Linux would fit their needs better. The answer to that is 0.. My father, brother both use Linux but come to me for Admin.. speaking of drivers, my brother dual-booted his pc with Linux and Windows from a fresh install, but his windows xp has 0 drivers, and his linux partition has 100% drivers.. What's annoying now :D But the same question goes for how many people in my family know enough about windows to be hobby admin and the answer is still 0.

...

And yes, you need to understand these people. I can´t this every time easily. I often just end up quitting my talk about Linux and go back to my room, where my beloved openSUSE-machine is standing. Yeah, it´s very bad behavior, but sometimes I lost the motivation to do that. If it works they don't need admin simple - my brothers problem is that he wants to play windows games - which are available in PlayonLinux but he bought the "3 in one box set dvd" which PoL doesn't recognise.

My dad is well impressed with Linux and hates the idea of running windows..

...

Yeah, sometimes I just want to scream because I´m really disappointed about the ignorance, some people have.

and I thought it was only me :) can't we just scream outside a supermarket with a megaphone "switch to Linux".

... and give away some live-CDs. It might would help, but I think a bit bigger. We have to make advertisement on sports events or something like that.

...

Long post, without long meaning.

The situation is simple:

Beside the need of mainstream-support we need some understanding about real world people´s problem. I spend very much time inside my room reading e-mails, answer them, or reading issues of other people, but if I go out to the big blue room, all the issues don´t count anymore.

There some people who just want to *use* their machines, and not to work and work forever on them.

yeah these people are the ones who call you every 30 days because they get a virus because they want to stream a movie and it says "download windows antivirus 2011 incase you get a virus in the video" or click on the "hey look at my kids doing something stupid.jpg.exe"

I just laugh at that kind of people. If they couldn´t hold their PC clean, they should use an operating system which is hard to destroy. If they don´t want to understand, it´s their problem.

...

Don´t want to configure them till they die. So just install it - put up with some moaning for a while and then let them get used to it :) that's what I do.

This one woman phoned me "My Windows has broken, I need a new hard drive coz i dropped the laptop can you fix it" I told her to replace the windows would cost her "100 pound for windows plus 150 pounds for ms office plus plus plus " or "a one stop solution with office and all you can eat applications for 50 pounds" - I installed Linux tested all drivers working, and gave it her back.

Once she got it home she was on the phone "My brother says where is Microsoft". I told her "I offered you an alternative to MS and you said "ok"". Her responce was "oh but I thought it was still windows". I replied "if you had looked at my website you should have seen I don't do windows".

Next day she text me "where is ms office I can't find it" I replied "Use OpenOffice / LibreOffice Word its fully compatible with MS Office upto 2010" I never heard anything from her since.

...

We also have to support these people, even if it´s kinda difficult. They don´t care, what´s new in Linux 3.0, they care about how they can write a document with LibreOffice.

Of course its not how it works as long as it works!

...

So, the best way to break these myths is to create a Linux-system that´s easy to use and can be understand by almost everyone.

I can do that now - install openSUSE with KDE4.6 on preconfigured laptops with selected hardware such as Realtek wireless cards that don't need firmware or Broadcom and install firmware via ethernet. But I don't have the funding to buy the hardware in advance so I need to order to order at the moment.

...

And of course, we need the support of the major computer companies out there. Well I tried talking to Asus, HP, Brother, Epson and others at an event in May, but they simply said that they are not interested unless its for Network Printers making Linux support for Windows Printers isn't high on their list.

Some of the companies wouldn't even deal with me I am not big enough - don't have enough buying power - I am dealing with Misco, RD-UK and CCS Computers / ZooStorm at the moment but they won't stop the retail software".

...

Sorry, for the long post, but I was currently under way. Hey its fine lets get everything out into the open and we can partition the issues into working goals and then plague the companies concerned until we get support.

So I say we need something like the Linux Medication Taskforce and create a cross distro taskforce:

Linux TomTom Taskforce or LinuxGarminTaskforce...

Lets target companies that use Linux on their device and get them to develop utilities required to manage their devices.

If only we could just image the SD card with DD that would be a start to upgrade the software.

-- Kim Leyendecker (kdl@k-dl.de.vu) openSUSE Ambassador, openSUSE Wiki Team DE HAVE A LOT OF FUN! http://www.opensuse.org Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute or create your own Linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. http://www.susestudio.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-ambassadors+help@opensuse.org