[opensuse-project] Announcing openSUSE-community.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] One very...

Francis Giannaros

23 Dec 2006 23 Dec '06

01:13

Many productive things came out of the first community meeting on IRC (http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Community_Meeting_2006-12-16/minutes). In the brainstorming section, one of these things was the decision to have a completely new resource for openSUSE-user created content; a place where we could document the stuff that we can't put directly onto opensuse.org, such as packman and guru tutorials, codecs, etc. There are many such sites, so we first assessed whether any of them was suitable. Currently there are many such resources around, but instructions for each particular thing are scattered over very many sites (specifically: susewiki.acapanela.com, susewiki.org, spinink.net, suseroot.com, and recently -- suseguide.org). This is confusing to a new user trying to find his way, counterproductive, and evidently creates quite a bit of duplication. So we've decided to create a place where: (i) we won't try to replace the great documentation on opensuse.org, and reference wherever possible, (ii) integrate nicely with opensuse.org (hence using mediawiki; going to be using a similar style), and (iii) be organised and straightforward; and specifically, organised for different openSUSE versions. If this last point is kept true, then rewriting a few bits of documentation should be easier, while still keeping the older ones accessible. A few of these ideas are executed in: http://opensuse-community.org/Package_Sources http://opensuse-community.org/Restricted_Formats ..which will probably end up being the main point of referrals to the site. This is a site now where all users can chip in their documentation, so it should go without saying, but please do add anything that might be useful. sPiN is also on contacting some of aforementioned site owners, to get some collaboration in on this. It would be nice to get all the community-contributed content under one resource :) So, we'd like to broaden up the discussion a little bit on the list here. Thoughts? Ideas? Please share. Current TODO: * Fix up the ugly mediawiki default skin. Plan on using opensuse's theme and adapting it soon. * Document more on the About page, as well as other things as listed on http://opensuse-community.org/Tasks * Contact other site owners Kind thoughts, apokryphos.

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jdd sur free

23 Dec 23 Dec

08:41

Francis Giannaros a écrit :

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This is a site now where all users can chip in their documentation

as sysop of fr.opensuse.org _and_ fr.susewiki.org (not to mention my own wiki), I have no problem with this new project. fr.susewiki.org was born a short time before opensuse was launched and is nearly empty (it gives me problems because I don't read it often and it's vandalised frequently). However I have some remarks: * opensuse-community should _not_ use the exact logo and layout of opensuse.org, to makes it clear it's _not_ (officially) Novell supported, let only for legal reason, * it should very clearly state what can be set in, what can't be written on it (if any) and what should better be on opensuse.org For example, I don't even understand clearly the content goal of Lessons for a Lizard (not had enough time to investigate though). I also have a little bunch of small tips and tricks I use on my SuSE, but may not be suse specific, so what may I do of this? (for example, http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/Documentation_Linux). Is it good for opensuse.org of or opensuse-community? If you want a french sysop, I can search for one (preferably not me), for example asking on the fr.opensuse.org list jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

12:42

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd sur free wrote:

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Francis Giannaros a écrit :

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This is a site now where all users can chip in their documentation

as sysop of fr.opensuse.org _and_ fr.susewiki.org (not to mention my own wiki), I have no problem with this new project. fr.susewiki.org was born a short time before opensuse was launched and is nearly empty (it gives me problems because I don't read it often and it's vandalised frequently).

However I have some remarks: * opensuse-community should _not_ use the exact logo and layout of opensuse.org, to makes it clear it's _not_ (officially) Novell supported, let only for legal reason,

But it is part of the openSUSE community, because it is driven and maintained by some of the most active members. If we can't use the openSUSE logo on our own initiatives, then there is no such thing as a community. I find it already a pity not having @opensuse.org email addresses for people who contribute a lot to the effort -- but that's (almost) another story. Obviously, as Novell holds the copyright on the openSUSE logo, we need legal ACK to use it.

...

* it should very clearly state what can be set in, what can't be written on it (if any) and what should better be on opensuse.org

It's not that easy to "clearly state" it. We'll just see how it comes along and possibly move things that belong to opensuse.org over there.

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For example, I don't even understand clearly the content goal of Lessons for a Lizard (not had enough time to investigate though). I also have a little bunch of small tips and tricks I use on my SuSE, but may not be suse specific, so what may I do of this? (for example, http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/Documentation_Linux). Is it good for opensuse.org of or opensuse-community?

If it doesn't imply potential legal issues, put it opensuse.org If it is about mplayer, mad, lame, Packman, Guru, etc.. then we have to put it on opensuse-community.org as Novell forbids us to put it on opensuse.org

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If you want a french sysop, I can search for one (preferably not me), for example asking on the fr.opensuse.org list

I don't know about plans to translate the content. I think we first need some sort of content and think about translating later. One thing at a time, we'll just see how it comes along, it's not like we're having a big plan for world domination or something. I think the first goal for us, as the current editors on the opensuse-community.org wiki are all active helpers on the #suse IRC channel, is to put content about frequently asked questions that come up again and again over there. Of course, it's not limited to that in any way, but we will use it for that purpose. I hope other websites about SUSE (forums, wikis, ...) will jump over their shadow and will help contribute into a single wiki (well, two wikis, opensuse.org and opensuse-community.org) as the current situation where a lot of information is split all over many different websites is dissatisfactory IMHO. At least for end users. As the previous initiative (quite a while back) to try to unify documentation and articles about SUSE Linux was a complete failure, we hope it will work out better this time. I think it's about time to jump over egos and see the bigger picture, start working somewhat together will the different parts of the community. But that's just my opinion. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFjSQur3NMWliFcXcRAi3FAKC/mnFxLPrQDcFr/v0mkBAewiQiXQCgifcQ eTihP7VnAlDA/tL5YDgZMi4= =aU5y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd sur free

15:55

Pascal Bleser a écrit :

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If we can't use the openSUSE logo on our own initiatives, then there is no such thing as a community.

That's not the problem. If this site is aimed to hold info illegal from the US point of view, it must be clear it's not Novell's supported, that's all... if not, why have two sites :-)

...

I find it already a pity not having @opensuse.org email addresses for people who contribute a lot to the effort -- but that's (almost) another story.

right now, openSUSE is quite only Novell. Of course I don't underestimate the community effort (and I'm not Novell myself :-), but the road is long before we can say that the community leads the project... and this is precisely the reason for we need this other site :-)

...

...
* it should very clearly state what can be set in, what can't be written on it (if any) and what should better be on opensuse.org

It's not that easy to "clearly state" it. We'll just see how it comes along and possibly move things that belong to opensuse.org over there.

this is the main problem I see now, we don't have so many people and not so many human power free. It's very good to be able to say "some legal problems forgice us to write some things on official openSUSE web site, feel free to insert then here..."

...

If it doesn't imply potential legal issues, put it opensuse.org If it is about mplayer, mad, lame, Packman, Guru, etc.. then we have to put it on opensuse-community.org as Novell forbids us to put it on opensuse.org

this very sentence could be a good start as a rule :-)

...

I think the first goal for us, as the current editors on the opensuse-community.org wiki are all active helpers on the #suse IRC channel, is to put content about frequently asked questions that come up again and again over there.

I personnally don't like IRC, so why you bareky see me there, but this is a very good idea :-)

...

I hope other websites about SUSE (forums, wikis, ...) will jump over their shadow and will help contribute into a single wiki (well, two wikis, opensuse.org and opensuse-community.org) as the current situation where a lot of information is split all over many different websites is dissatisfactory IMHO. At least for end users. As the previous initiative (quite a while back) to try to unify documentation and articles about SUSE Linux was a complete failure, we hope it will work out better this time.

I don't think so. there are many communities on the web and each of the living ones have a real (even if unknown) reason to live. merging is much less frequent than splitting :-(

...

I think it's about time to jump over egos and see the bigger picture, start working somewhat together will the different parts of the community. But that's just my opinion.

I have no problem with this for my own :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

22:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd sur free wrote:

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Pascal Bleser a écrit :

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If we can't use the openSUSE logo on our own initiatives, then there is no such thing as a community.

That's not the problem. If this site is aimed to hold info illegal from the US point of view, it must be clear it's not Novell's supported, that's all... if not, why have two sites :-)

Ok, now I see what you mean. Indeed ;) http://opensuse-community.org: "The openSUSE-Community is a project aiming to channel more of a community effort into our favourite distribution, openSUSE. This includes -- but is not exclusive to -- adding all the extra documentation that is required for a seamless openSUSE experience. Through this wiki, we intend to provide a placeholder for all additional information. This site is not meant to in any way create a duplication of effort to what is already on http://openSUSE.org, but rather to be a supplement to what is there." I'm not sure we should explicitly mention the content provided there contains information that _might_ be infringing some patents in the US though.

...

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I find it already a pity not having @opensuse.org email addresses for people who contribute a lot to the effort -- but that's (almost) another story.

right now, openSUSE is quite only Novell. Of course I don't underestimate the community effort (and I'm not Novell myself :-), but the road is long before we can say that the community leads the project... and this is precisely the reason for we need this other site :-)

Exactly. But sorry, openSUSE is not "quite only Novell" in my opinion. The distribution is mostly driven by Novell, but not the community around it, obviously. Let's not understate our contribution to the project.

...

...
...
* it should very clearly state what can be set in, what can't be written on it (if any) and what should better be on opensuse.org

It's not that easy to "clearly state" it. We'll just see how it comes along and possibly move things that belong to opensuse.org over there.

this is the main problem I see now, we don't have so many people and not so many human power free.

I think we do have a lot of people. The "problem", currently, is rather that it is scattered around many smaller communities (some of them are quite large, "smaller" just means smaller than the overall community ;)). Some of those communities (e.g. existing forums) somehow don't seem to see themselves as part of the openSUSE community (as a whole). But, as said, that's another discussion. We had it already and I'm willing to discuss it all over again, but with all the people who are concerned being involved in it, etc... But let's not discuss that in the middle of another email thread on a list that is flooded with chit-chat.

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It's very good to be able to say "some legal problems forgice us to write some things on official openSUSE web site, feel free to insert then here..."

...
If it doesn't imply potential legal issues, put it opensuse.org If it is about mplayer, mad, lame, Packman, Guru, etc.. then we have to put it on opensuse-community.org as Novell forbids us to put it on opensuse.org

this very sentence could be a good start as a rule :-)

Just forget about "rules" atm. Let's not spend 6 months thinking about rules, control, sysops, how to enforce them, bla bla bla. Let's just do it, right now, see how it evolves and adjust accordingly, if needed.

...

...
I think the first goal for us, as the current editors on the opensuse-community.org wiki are all active helpers on the #suse IRC channel, is to put content about frequently asked questions that come up again and again over there.

I personally don't like IRC, so why you bareky see me there, but this is a very good idea :-)

Along with forums, it's the best place to see what people are mostly having problems with, what information they are looking for, etc... We really encounter a certain number of questions and topics over and over again. Having those things documented properly somewhere would definitely help.

...

...
I hope other websites about SUSE (forums, wikis, ...) will jump over their shadow and will help contribute into a single wiki (well, two wikis, opensuse.org and opensuse-community.org) as the current situation where a lot of information is split all over many different websites is dissatisfactory IMHO. At least for end users. As the previous initiative (quite a while back) to try to unify documentation and articles about SUSE Linux was a complete failure, we hope it will work out better this time.

I don't think so. there are many communities on the web and each of the living ones have a real (even if unknown) reason to live. merging is much less frequent than splitting :-(

Yeah, I know, and of course they should all keep on going, they're all a very helpful resource. The point is not to merge the "micro" communities around openSUSE. The point is to centralize wiki pages, howtos, articles, documentation in *one place*. Because of the legal reasons already discussed, unfortunately, it's two places instead of one. But that's still better than a dozen IMHO.

...

...
I think it's about time to jump over egos and see the bigger picture, start working somewhat together will the different parts of the community. But that's just my opinion.

I have no problem with this for my own :-)

Good ;) cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFjagDr3NMWliFcXcRAgVpAKCw574753A6Grpy/9RM5TEf8PFkFACeIPaL bHbYAlOT/gG/BigQVjxDtOg= =ybvX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd sur free

24 Dec 24 Dec

08:06

Pascal Bleser a écrit :

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I'm not sure we should explicitly mention the content provided there contains information that _might_ be infringing some patents in the US though.

better give examples :-)

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Exactly. But sorry, openSUSE is not "quite only Novell" in my opinion. The distribution is mostly driven by Novell, but not the community around it, obviously.

until now it is (driven by Novell). This actual initiative is a first step as independance, probably necessary and usefull if smartly done (as it seems to be, given the founders). would be much better to have opensuse-community.org e-mail than the other way. In fact I don't really see how Novell could give up the "dictatorship" on openSUSE, given Novell would have a very bad time living without the openSUSE control (suppose a violent fork), but could give the openSUSE-"community" a much larger freedom, the word "community" making clear the independance from the mother house :-) on the "community", there should be no dictatorship, even benevolent :-)

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I think we do have a lot of people. The "problem", currently, is rather that it is scattered around many smaller communities

I don't have never seen separate communities grouped if not by a collective effort of they own founders. if you can show the signatures of most of the main present suse community leaders here (as leaders of they own community), you can acheive the goal of meging them, but you wont do that on creating a new one. in fact, probably each existing community (the really living ones) have something special (not necesseraly easily visible) that makes it alive, often the simple personality of one of they members. I mean, if I'm part of any community, people can come and say: jdd is here, I can be part of it. But I know there are also that wil say: jdd is here, I will _not_ be part of this shit... :-)

...

...
...
If it doesn't imply potential legal issues, put it opensuse.org If it is about mplayer, mad, lame, Packman, Guru, etc.. then we have to put it on opensuse-community.org as Novell forbids us to put it on opensuse.org this very sentence could be a good start as a rule :-)

Just forget about "rules" atm. Let's not spend 6 months thinking about rules, control, sysops, how to enforce them, bla bla bla. Let's just do it, right now, see how it evolves and adjust accordingly, if needed.

we need a rule, no necessity to discuss if for days :-) it's almost already done :-), but a "flagg": com here we are... (and why should somebody come here and not elsewhere :-)

...

already discussed, unfortunately, it's two places instead of one. But that's still better than a dozen IMHO.

I also think so, but know many people wont agree :-( worth a try. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Francis Giannaros

23 Dec 23 Dec

22:42

On Saturday 23 December 2006 08:41, jdd sur free wrote:

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* opensuse-community should _not_ use the exact logo and layout of opensuse.org, to makes it clear it's _not_ (officially) Novell supported, let only for legal reason,

My plan was to try to get in a logo with "Community" in there (going with the site name), but one which would be an adaptation of the one on opensuse.org. If anyone is willing to make one, please post it in to any of us 8)

...

* it should very clearly state what can be set in, what can't be written on it (if any) and what should better be on opensuse.org

Agreed. A little clarification is required (i) on the main page, and importantly (ii) on the About page, which hasn't been written yet. I tossed up a paragraph for the main page on a little of what I thought it was, but we definitely need some input on this (hence the post to the list), and need to rewrite some relevant parts.

...

If you want a french sysop, I can search for one (preferably not me), for example asking on the fr.opensuse.org list

Thanks! Sounds great, but translations probably shouldn't begin just yet (as Pascal has mentioned), since it's very changeable at the moment, and there isn't much there yet. ---------------------------------------------- On Saturday 23 December 2006 12:42, Pascal Bleser wrote:

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If we can't use the openSUSE logo on our own initiatives, then there is no such thing as a community. I find it already a pity not having @opensuse.org email addresses for people who contribute a lot to the effort -- but that's (almost) another story.

Really? I didn't know about that; that's a little sad to hear. openSUSE shouldn't only acknowledge the people on the payroll, it should acknowledge all the people that contribute to the project. It'd be nice to see opensuse/ IRC cloaks for community contributors, too (I have no idea if they were denied these too, just mentioning). ------------------------------------------------ Also, just as Pascal has said, this site is made to unify users of the community, and bring the content out there under one place. The site does not belong to one person, or a small group of people. It should be made for and produced by anyone in the openSUSE community. That is why we chose this site name (despite the good suggestion of opensu.se :P ); we want to stress that as a community we should be united. Cheesy stuff perhaps, but it's what we need. Regards, Francis.

Peter Flodin

25 Dec 25 Dec

00:32

On 12/23/06, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...

So, we'd like to broaden up the discussion a little bit on the list here. Thoughts? Ideas? Please share.

...

Kind thoughts, apokryphos.

Don' t be offended, but who are you? ;-) I have never personally had dealings with you here, but as the legal owner of the domain opensuse-community.org can you (or others if you are modest) just do a brief synopsis. Pflodo Peter Flodin ps. pointing to libdvdcss from a USA hosted server? Tell me again why you would want to do this? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Francis Giannaros

01:06

Hi Peter, On Monday 25 December 2006 00:32, Peter Flodin wrote:

...

Don' t be offended, but who are you? ;-)

I've been meaning to set up my page properly at http://giannaros.org for months, but I haven't gotten around to it yet (maybe soon). But some information: Real Name: Francis Giannaros IRC: apokryphos General recent openSUSE community member. I've been technically using it since 10.0, but I've laid dormant with regards to contributions at all until 10.2 (apart from bug reports of course). Since I was quite blown away by the release, I don't advise friends/family to really use anything else, and so I'm trying to help contribute where I can.

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I have never personally had dealings with you here, but as the legal owner of the domain opensuse-community.org can you (or others if you are modest) just do a brief synopsis.

That's actually just a technicality. In the community meeting, Benjamin was delegating a few things (the chair of the meeting) after we made some decisions, and I said I'd do the domain registration after sPiN volunteered to host the site. The site is of course not in the slightest bit more mine than it is anyone else's: it belongs to the community. I'm sending the registration/login details to a few other community members as we speak, should anything happen. Regards, Francis.

Francis Giannaros

20:24

On Monday 25 December 2006 00:32, Peter Flodin wrote:

...

On 12/23/06, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...
So, we'd like to broaden up the discussion a little bit on the list here. Thoughts? Ideas? Please share.

Kind thoughts, apokryphos.

Don' t be offended, but who are you? ;-)

In fact ended up setting a site today, so you can perhaps find out some more information at http://francis.giannaros.org

Peter Flodin

21:26

On 12/26/06, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...

In fact ended up setting a site today, so you can perhaps find out some more information at http://francis.giannaros.org

Thank you for this and your efforts at contributing to this project. It always amuses (pleases) me how opensource software is a unifying force between people who otherwise have such varied interests and backgrounds that they would spend a lifetime without crossing paths. Pflodo Peter Flodin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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Francis Giannaros
jdd sur free
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Peter Flodin