On 11/16/2009 12:05 PM, Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier wrote:

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Rob OpenSuSE

wrote:

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There's a Distrowatch review now, which unfortunately is one of

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those "Ubuntu & Mandriva" worked, "openSUSE crashes and is

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unstable" vareity. There are many who had opposite experience, but

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it would be nice to be able to rise above anecdotes and have

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actuall figures.

Unfortunately, reviews do tend to be "anecdotal" since it's limited

to the hardware the reviewer has on hand.

For me, I wouldn't allow a reviewer to only test a new OS on only a

netbook and an ancient system -- but, that's life.

Ars and others gave the release a good review. We have to expect at

least one or two dings with each release.

Best,

Zonker I bought a new acer netbook with an aom n279 1 gig ram went to the nearest coffee shop and had openSuse 11.2 rc1 installed with a dd'd usb stick within a half cup of small coffee.

presently I have 11.2 final installed and 11.3 milestone 0 up and running using a usb keyboared and mouse and a larger 1400x900 monitor . about the only issue I have is I cant align my monitors side by side I can do them above and below tho. pretty minor What I,m trying to say does this guy even know how to operate a compue -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/16 Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier :

On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 1:36 PM, dale ritchey wrote:

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What I,m trying to say does this guy even know how to operate a compue

I assume you're using the term "guy" inclusively, as I believe the author is a woman. Judging by her bio, I'd say she probably does know "how to operate a compue" and even a computer too! http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/2654

The reviewer also knew significant info, which if it had been posted on forum, would probably have meant she received a workround fairly rapidly.

When working with press and reviewers, I would recommend assuming that just because they have a bad experience with the software does not indicate that the reviewer is less competent. Some of the dings in the review seem a bit unfair, but this is exactly the sort of experience some users will run into (apparently) and attributing that only to the competence of the reviewer is a very bad idea.

C. was comparing an HP Mini 110, which was pre-sold with Ubuntu (Netbook Remix I think) and has Tier 1 support according to Cannonical. It includes the Broadcom wireless driver, and she experienced problems in other Linux with it causing conflicts. That Liive CD doesn't support (at least it didn't in 11.1 brokenmodules=X boot parameter) means it is harder to work round any issues. It is true that the Wiki was down on release day, the en.software.openuse.org URL's weren't working. I have noticed that there are dead links on the Novell site to, in the FAQ (even a reference to upgrading if system older than SuSE Linux 8.2), and also in the Docs section. I found a tool called "checkbot" in the distro, could somoeone's Webmaster run it, so the hardwork put into the OS isn't let down by more nits than necessary. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/22 Gerald Pfeifer :

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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I found a tool called "checkbot" in the distro, could somoeone's Webmaster run it, so the hardwork put into the OS isn't let down by more nits than necessary.

In a different life I am contributing the occasional patch to checkbot and have it regularily running on two websites I maintain.  I would be glad to do the same for openSUSE if someone wants to look at the report (and tells me where to send it).  No magic here, we just may want to have one instance running, not a few dozen. :-)

I reported a few link problems on Documentation & FAQ hosted on novell.com which is linked to by openSUSE.org. No evidence to suggest openSUSE links aren't checked already. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 16 November 2009 13:18:34 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

Did we do anything with smolt though?

Smolt is included and installed, but the tool is not complete, so it should not be pushed too much in front. Basic stuff works, an old bug that made GUI useless is resolved, so now you can get password that you need to edit your profile on a smolts.org server. BTW, it would be good to have edit options in client, so that you can edit profile before upload. Interested can start smoltGui from console, or Main Menu search for smolt. -- Regards, Rajko openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/16 Carlos Goncalves :

On Monday 16 November 2009 15:54:50 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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11.2 seems like a generally well received release, with some good reviews, and flaws are much less obvious than in 11.1.  One of the 11.1 features was smolt, now I see it installed under 11.2; but I've not found it in the Installation workflow, even with autoconfig off, and doing net connection test and updates.

At least KDE users will notice a KDE notification (ksmolt) asking to submit they hardware profile to Smolt as soon as a Smolt update is released, unghosting file /var/run/smolt_do_opensuse_run and thus triggering ksmolt. You can follow this in bug report #555777.

Well I am a KDE user was asked repeatedly in 11.1 RC's and GM, but 11.2 has not asked me once about smolt yet. I've run RC's, done upgrades to 11.2 and also am currently using a clean install. It's why I checked whether smolt was even installed. But if it's still running and meant to be started then, do we have any access to some summary information? What is actually getting tested prior to release, and then installed after would be great to know, in order to spend time more wisely when testing openSUSE. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/17 Carlos Goncalves :

On Tuesday 17 November 2009 02:02:25 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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2009/11/16 Carlos Goncalves :

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On Monday 16 November 2009 15:54:50 Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

It didn't ask you in 11.2 because there is no Smolt update yet.

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It's why I checked whether smolt was even installed.  But if it's still running and meant to be started then, do we have any access to some  summary information?

Please note that Smolt doesn't run neither as a service nor as a background process sending periodically (monthly by default) your hardware profile unless you tell it explicitly (/etc/init.d/smolt). This is, openSUSE does not enable that service by default.

So basically, we have very little idea what hardware our release have been tested on, and no information is openly available to openSUSE users, or those who try to spec. out a system to run openSUSE well? The very visible 11.1 new feature, is just melting away and being forgotten? http://www.google.com/search?q=smolt+site%3Aopensuse.org doesn't show very much. smolt.org has Active Hosts last 90 days, as 20,910 for 11.1 and just 175 for 11.2, which is too small a sample to be useful. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

* Per Jessen [11-18-09 09:24]:

Carlos Goncalves wrote:

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Please note that Smolt doesn't run neither as a service nor as a background process sending periodically (monthly by default) your hardware profile unless you tell it explicitly (/etc/init.d/smolt). This is, openSUSE does not enable that service by default.

Uh, on a freshly installed 11.2 I have the following cron entry:

# Runs the smolt checkin client 20 1 1 * * smolt /usr/bin/smoltSendProfile -c > /dev/null 2>&1

Meee tooo. Since late June in one of the early/first 11.2 MileStones. And, if you bother to look, there is 11.2 information available on the smolt website. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/11/18 Patrick Shanahan :

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* Per Jessen [11-18-09 09:24]:

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Carlos Goncalves wrote:

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Please note that Smolt doesn't run neither as a service nor as a background process sending periodically (monthly by default) your hardware profile unless you tell it explicitly (/etc/init.d/smolt). This is, openSUSE does not enable that service by default.

Uh, on a freshly installed 11.2 I have the following cron entry:

# Runs the smolt checkin client 20 1 1 * * smolt /usr/bin/smoltSendProfile -c > /dev/null 2>&1

Meee tooo.  Since late June in one of the early/first 11.2 MileStones.

And, if you bother to look, there is 11.2 information available on the smolt website.

I have the file to, but there is no way only 175 11.2 installs were done, which is the smolt.org figures.

Something is wrong

Look at the cron entry. "20 1 1" means 0120 (local) on the first day of the month. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/18 Carlos E. R. :

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Something is wrong

Look at the cron entry. "20 1 1" means 0120 (local) on the first day of the month.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=463461 Reported almost a year ago.

Exactly! My pre-GM 11.2 was unlikely to have contacted the smolts.org servers, and a mail thread where you mention the problems with the cron job is one of the few things thrown up by the google search I made. With 11.1, you got prodded into submitting (or not) a report, and you got an Smolt ID so could give a URL with hardware description in bug reports. On smolts.org there's some very basic stats, but I don't think we can see what OS 11.2 has been tested on. So it's hard to know if it's worth spending time on a box, checking if our OS is installable to a point where bug reports could be submitted. Perhaps it'd be better strategy to run vanilla kernels to, and try out the rc's whilst the main kernel team are swatting regressions. The drawback is the long compile time these days for kernel on older boxes, making it rather time consuming. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/19 Per Jessen :

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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2009/11/18 Carlos E. R. :

Just run smoltSendProfile, and that's exactly what will happen.

How many ppl would bother to do this?

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On smolts.org there's some very basic stats, but I don't think we can see what OS 11.2 has been tested on.  So it's hard to know if it's worth spending  time on a box, checking if our OS is installable to a point where bug reports could be submitted.

This might be a matter of opinion, but unless you've got a really unusual box (embedded or some such for instance), why don't you just try it out?  99% of hardware will be supported to a point where whatever remains is worth submitting bugreports on.

You've been missing the point in this thread. This is about using time of all better. If you have access to many machines, how do you choose where is worthwhile trying something? If 10 people are using that machine daily as a desktop already, then it's waste of time duplicating their effort. Where as if noone has installed on that hardware 11.2, then possibly it's a sign of boot problems needing a workround and/or kernel changes. With some older hardware, testing it and submitting bug reports can become a lot of work on a marginally viable box, which then noone really uses; but OTOH if a PCI card is widely used with older releases, it is worthwhile putting effort in. It seems clear from response to this thread as a project, we really have very little idea really about the range of hardware our newest release has been tested on. We could only start to get a picture as cron jobs start running on 1st. But don't find it obvious with smolts.org how to filter out Fedora etc and only look at results for OS 11.x. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

2009/11/19 Per Jessen :

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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2009/11/19 Per Jessen :

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Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

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2009/11/18 Carlos E. R. :

To me, what is worthwhile testing is something I determine.  It is in no way influenced by what may or may not have been tested already. I will often try out the alphas/betas/RCs on boxes I might be prepping for production, or a box that has been taken out of production, but not yet moved. Right now I've got a new firewall box sitting next to me, running 11.2.

Yes that's good opportunism.

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If 10 people are using that machine daily as a desktop already, then it's waste of time duplicating their effort.

Perhaps - doesn't it depend some on what they're doing with it and if it is _exactly_ the same machine?

Well I have installed Linux for 10 years or so, so when things don't go smooth I'd like to think I can develop work rounds, and narrow the problem down. Our releases do not install smoothly on all supported range of hardware, because of driver issues in kernel, or sometimes installer bugs. To me those bugs, that stop someone running Online update, are much more serious than 'normal' application bugs, say a crash in Kget when you investigate torrents in a download group. What does the average user do, when faced with a GM release that simply locks up, when the kernel starts running, or just get a black screen?

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It seems clear from response to this thread as a project, we really have very little idea really about the range of hardware our newest release has been tested on.

Yes, I think that is a very safe assumption to make.

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We could only start to get a picture as cron jobs start running on 1st.  But don't find it obvious with smolts.org how to filter out Fedora etc and only look at results for OS 11.x.

I looked at the smolt package, and AFAICT, Henne Vogelsang added a requirement for cron back in 2008, so maybe that's when the cron-file was created too. Maybe Henne had some specific idea wrt the 0120 time to run smolt?

I used to avoid the sleep issues in a simple way by having the cron job, create a job with randomised later time into an at(1) queue configured 1 job wide and like the batch(1) queue to run only when system load was low. That way the job would get run, even if there was downtime and you didn't need processes hanging around. Unfortunately we don't seem to enable at(1)/batch(1) on default install, so Carlos's idea seems the best suggestion. If we can't use the info gathered effectively, there seems little point in taking a look at the upstream code, and writing & trying to get them to accept a SuSE specific patch which works better with our dumber cron(8) system. Unfortunately we've got another bad review on lwn.net, this time it installed with disgusting fonts, which would have caused huge fuss on forum if it were a usual happening. The recommendation is to wait for 11.3, which given how improved past releases were 10 weeks after release by updates, seems really unfair. As Joe said, it's is the users/reviewers job to 'blame', and without something more organised (and the visible collection of smolt data seemed a step on this parth) to ensure reasonable test coverage (even just booting of Live CD) I can't see how the GM release will really improve and become "just works" for more ppl. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/19/2009 05:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

Run smolt on startup, skipping if timestamp of <last-time-file> is less than 30 days old.

Just drop an entry in /etc/cron.monthly/, that's what it is for. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2-ex-factory "Emerald" GM) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAksFrgQACgkQU92UU+smfQXoIgCeMtqbtLQE6slsa8uFiKpgfsGt awgAn30l+Ws4ar1zbh8Lqg98qZqYu5hV =II+1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

2009/11/19 Carlos E. R. :

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Run smolt on startup, skipping if timestamp of <last-time-file> is less than 30 days old.

Just drop an entry in /etc/cron.monthly/, that's what it is for.

Didn't the packager refuse to do that though for some reason? Referring it Upstream.

You're right, I've just found the cron stuff in the smolt tarball. Maybe there is a smolt mailing list ? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 19 November 2009 07:33:55 Per Jessen wrote:

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How many ppl would bother to do this?

Not many, only those with an active interest in smolt, I suspect - which might also happen to be the ones with a use for a Smolt ID ?

Everyone that has a problem can be asked to run smolt, and edit working and not working hardware on the http://smolts.org server. Profile ID and password one can get with command line and GUI. Carlos Goncalves created new GUI that has no problem with missing password, and has open options to extend reported information with installed software, although that is not yet implemented. -- Regards, Rajko openSUSE Wiki Team: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Team People of openSUSE: http://en.opensuse.org/People_of_openSUSE/About -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org