On 06/11/2018 12:25 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

Was Leap 15 in a Beta/RC phase for FOUR WHOLE MONTHS? - Yes

I'm open to the discussion that the Project has a problem with an uptick of bugs after the release. This wouldn't be the first time, I consider it usual, and I find it unfortunate. But I would say that the question that needs to be asked is not whether or not our project's annual gathering is a factor, but why are more people testing Leap 15 now after the release than during the MONTHS of testing?

In my case, the odd thing is that I tested 15.0 for months in the Beta stage, ran into absolutely NO problems. I tried various things -- the zypper dup upgrading, and occasionally downloading the latest Beta and installing it to make sure a fresh install would work properly, as well as installing it using the "Upgrade System" (or similar) menu option, to see if I could run into a bug that would fix it. My mistake? I should have been trying it in test partitions on my other Machines. When 15.0 was released, I suddenly ran into a flurry of problems installing on at least two of the other machines. I am currently holding those exercises until I have time to explore them and either join or create a Bug report where I can provide some perhaps useful information to help with the solution. In the meantime, I was able to get those other machines up and running in 15.0 with some stumbling around (with duct tape and haywire?). Shocked me, because I had somehow managed to slip past those important bugs unscathed all during the Beta testing. I will be creating test partitions on those other machines and will explore the issue further so I can contribute. But, when I get a chance. Meantime, I hope others who run into such problems report them in appropriate Bugs, rather than just whine about them. These things do happen in Tech. As you said, perhaps if a lot more were testing on a lot more machines? In my testing, I was convinced that 15.0 was the Most Rock Solid Release of All Time! Oh, Well. Still a job Very Well Done by all involved in the Development Process ... and I am NOT going to be Humble in my Opinion on this. -- -Gerry Makaro openSUSE Member openSUSE Forum Moderator openSUSE Contributor aka Fraser_Bell on the Forums, OBS, IRC, and mail at openSUSE.org Fraser-Bell on Github -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-11 21:46, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

Op maandag 11 juni 2018 20:44:13 CEST schreef Felix Miata:

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It bugs me to see reports like https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1096913 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1096971 https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1096960 so soon after a new release. In the past two weeks there have been 20 new Distribution reports on Installation, 7 on Upgrade Problems, 9 on YaST2, 7 on Network, 2 on Bootloader, 13 on Basesystem, and 186 on simply Distribution, of which explicitly 15.0.

Does anyone have any recollection if this is a typical result of a new release?

Did you count the # of downloads as well? Checked the validity of all these bugreports?

I did, some of them are mine. I have dedicated entire days to investigate bugs this last week.

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It makes me wonder if releases should better be timed to _not_ coincide with social gatherings as happened with 15.0, so that last weeks' testing time isn't disrupted by plans and preparations for a social event. Felix, this a completely unrespectful insinuation, next to completely ridiculous. What makes you think so low about people from the community? Disappointing and IMNSHO deserves an apology to those organing the conference and those that were there.

Felix is not blaming the conference or the people there, but wonders if the release was hurried and last minute bugs creeped in, not found till too late. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

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isn't disrupted by plans and preparations for a social event.

Felix, this a completely unrespectful insinuation, next to completely ridiculous. What makes you think so low about people from the community? Disappointing and IMNSHO deserves an apology to those organing the conference and those that were there. Indeed it is ridiculous - I wonder what put Felix into position to pass such judgements, not only about release but also about conference - it is far from "social gathering". If Felix was involved either with

On Mon, 2018-06-11 at 21:46 +0200, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote: planning of conference or with releasing Leap he would know that there is actually very little overlap between people involved in each, therefore there is no risk of one influencing other. Cheers Martin P.S "You kids stop having fun when I am not having any!"

On Tue, 2018-06-12 at 09:55 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 06/12/2018 08:50 AM, martin@pluskal.org wrote:

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On Mon, 2018-06-11 at 21:46 +0200, Knurpht @ openSUSE wrote:

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isn't disrupted by plans and preparations for a social event.

Felix, this a completely unrespectful insinuation, next to completely ridiculous. What makes you think so low about people from the community? Disappointing and IMNSHO deserves an apology to those organing the conference and those that were there.

Indeed it is ridiculous - I wonder what put Felix into position to pass such judgements, not only about release but also about conference - it is far from "social gathering". If Felix was involved either with planning of conference or with releasing Leap he would know that there is actually very little overlap between people involved in each, therefore there is no risk of one influencing other.

Calm down folks. Felix was talking about people *attending* the conference prepare for their trip and don't test. And there is indeed some overlap for those testing.

But in all fairness: this is just normal business. Releases are tested *way* more and in *way* more scenarios than any milestone - plus people love to create drama for bugs in the release while they consider problems in betas 'normal'. You might remember only previous Leap releases, but those were boring service pack updates. None of it included as drastic changes as Leap 15. And for previous (non-leap) openSUSE releases, it has always been the same story. Afterwards we discussed if Betas shouldn't have been more tested or if we shouldn't have had more Release Candidates, or ....

And not sure about Felix, but I would expect most grownups to be able to prepare for a weekend trip in a reasonable time that doesn't block them from any other activity they wanted to do.

One would assume so, but "...last weeks' testing time isn't disrupted by plans and preparations for a social event." - I also hope that for most people preparations for attending conference takes less ... That being said I would like to express my hope that people interested in manually testing Leap before release realize that last week before release is a bit late (if you expect to have some impact on what is released as iso). Cheers M

On 06/12/2018 11:42 AM, martin@pluskal.org wrote:

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That being said I would like to express my hope that people interested in manually testing Leap before release realize that last week before release is a bit late (if you expect to have some impact on what is released as iso).

I actually doubt seriously that any of the linked bugs slipped in late. Of course not, they were likely there for quiete some time, but if

On Tue, 2018-06-12 at 13:53 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote: people test one week before release, its already to late for not super critical bugs to get to GM => meaning that people should be encouraged to do such testing earlier. Cheers M

Am 13.06.2018 um 19:56 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

This feature was added late in the process, I didn't notice when, with the result that I did not test it. Right. So shit happens - and complex systems will contain bugs. But believing that you can change anything about it by releasing a week earlier or later is just illusion.

What does help and what did help is writing test cases for things that get implemented. And we're getting better with this, but we surely have a long way to go. Greetings, Stephan -- Lighten up, just enjoy life, smile more, laugh more, and don't get so worked up about things. Kenneth Branagh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-06-14 10:42, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

On 06/13/2018 07:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2018-06-12 13:53, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On 06/12/2018 11:42 AM, martin@pluskal.org wrote:

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That being said I would like to express my hope that people interested in manually testing Leap before release realize that last week before release is a bit late (if you expect to have some impact on what is released as iso). I actually doubt seriously that any of the linked bugs slipped in late.

Yes, some did.

Well, that's at least questionable for the examples you have provided. :-)

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I tested a few betas as fresh installs in my laptop, and there was a missing feature I needed: importing the existing partition layout (from reading fstab). This lack made installing on existing computers more cumbersome, as partitions have to be entered one by one manually. So I used zypper dup instead.

"Needed" is a too strong word here. It's true that without the "Import Mount Point" button you have to manually select all the partitions you want to reuse. Something like 10 extra clicks. So that button was a convenience to save clicks, but its absence is far from being a stopper for testing the installer (that's why it was not implemented at the beginning).

Ten extra clicks per partition. In this system there are 55. Ok, I may not need all of them at start, I can edit them back when the system runs importing some fstab from backup copy myself. So say I enter 5 partitions manually: that's 50 clicks, and several strings to type (label perhaps and mount point). Say quarter an hour extra. Enough to decide for zypper dup instead.

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This feature was added late in the process, I didn't notice when, with the result that I did not test it.

We can agree then, this is again about late testing and not about the bugs being introduced late.

No. A bug that was not discovered because the feature was introduced too late for being noticed, and possibly in a hurry. In fact, I failed to do late testing of the final ISO betas, or I would have discovered those two bugs

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Well, two serious bugs crept in late and I failed to discover them :-(

a) YaST crashes if there are encrypted partitions listed in fstab

If I'm not mistaken, this bug didn't slip in the last moment. It was probably there since the very beginning (by the way, it may be that your description makes it sound more severe than it was).

Well, my testing in the same computer did not detect it previously. In fact, mounting existing encrypted partitions failed before because yast did not write crypttab. Possibly when this bug was corrected the other one appeared.

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b) YaST can select ALL existing partitions for formatting, including /home and other data partitions, with the result of data destruction.

b2) sometimes it formats none, which is also catastrophic.

I don't think (b2) is true. The partitioner in Leap 15.0 always formats ALL reused mount points.

It happened to me in a virtual machine where I tested for this bug.

In previous versions there was an extra checkbox labeled "Format System Volumes" to control all that. The exact behavior depending on the concrete partition and the value of that checkbox turned out to be complicated.

I say it is a dangerous bug. If it is a conscious decision, put a warning in red. ... Till someone at IBM gets his home deleted and complains, as happened once years ago. Then you people changed the code fast :-( -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE, Leap 15.0 x86_64 (ssd-test)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/14/2018 11:12 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-06-14 10:42, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

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On 06/13/2018 07:56 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2018-06-12 13:53, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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On 06/12/2018 11:42 AM, martin@pluskal.org wrote:

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That being said I would like to express my hope that people interested in manually testing Leap before release realize that last week before release is a bit late (if you expect to have some impact on what is released as iso). I actually doubt seriously that any of the linked bugs slipped in late.

Yes, some did.

Well, that's at least questionable for the examples you have provided. :-)

...

I tested a few betas as fresh installs in my laptop, and there was a missing feature I needed: importing the existing partition layout (from reading fstab). This lack made installing on existing computers more cumbersome, as partitions have to be entered one by one manually. So I used zypper dup instead.

"Needed" is a too strong word here. It's true that without the "Import Mount Point" button you have to manually select all the partitions you want to reuse. Something like 10 extra clicks. So that button was a convenience to save clicks, but its absence is far from being a stopper for testing the installer (that's why it was not implemented at the beginning).

Ten extra clicks per partition.

Not really. But I will not start a contest of counting clicks. ;-) That was not my point.

In this system there are 55.

Ok, I may not need all of them at start, I can edit them back when the system runs importing some fstab from backup copy myself. So say I enter 5 partitions manually: that's 50 clicks, and several strings to type (label perhaps and mount point). Say quarter an hour extra.

Enough to decide for zypper dup instead.

...

...

This feature was added late in the process, I didn't notice when, with the result that I did not test it.

We can agree then, this is again about late testing and not about the bugs being introduced late.

No. A bug that was not discovered because the feature was introduced too late for being noticed, and possibly in a hurry.

Ah. I misunderstood something in your original mail then. I though that the bug you labeled as "(a)" was a generic problem not related to importing partitions and that you haven't found it because testing a full re-install was cumbersome for you. Now I got it.

In fact, I failed to do late testing of the final ISO betas, or I would have discovered those two bugs

...

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Well, two serious bugs crept in late and I failed to discover them :-(

a) YaST crashes if there are encrypted partitions listed in fstab

If I'm not mistaken, this bug didn't slip in the last moment. It was probably there since the very beginning (by the way, it may be that your description makes it sound more severe than it was).

Well, my testing in the same computer did not detect it previously. In fact, mounting existing encrypted partitions failed before because yast did not write crypttab. Possibly when this bug was corrected the other one appeared.

No, those are unrelated bugs and the import one is not a consequence of fixing the other. As said, I simply misunderstood what you were talking about.

...

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b) YaST can select ALL existing partitions for formatting, including /home and other data partitions, with the result of data destruction.

b2) sometimes it formats none, which is also catastrophic.

I don't think (b2) is true. The partitioner in Leap 15.0 always formats ALL reused mount points.

It happened to me in a virtual machine where I tested for this bug.

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In previous versions there was an extra checkbox labeled "Format System Volumes" to control all that. The exact behavior depending on the concrete partition and the value of that checkbox turned out to be complicated.

I say it is a dangerous bug.

As said, I agree about the "dangerous" part and not so much about the "bug" one. But enough discussed about it.

If it is a conscious decision, put a warning in red.

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Till someone at IBM gets his home deleted and complains, as happened once years ago. Then you people changed the code fast :-(

Initially the button was not there at all in the initial pre-releases of Leap 15 (and SLE 15) because we were focusing on other stuff and, as explained in my previous mail, it's more a convenience than something indispensable. But then we decided to implement it in the last minute because it was requested. By IBM? For SLE? NO. Because it was requested for Leap by openSUSE users. So we re-allocated some human resources to bring back at least an initial minimal version of the button just in time for the Leap release. So we prioritized having something requested by openSUSE users in time for the Leap release instead of focusing on other features requested by partners on time for the SLE release. So please, don't insinuate we are leaving openSUSE behind to please IBM, because that's exactly THE OPPOSITE to what happened here. Cheers. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org