-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-29 16:55, Malcolm wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:43:28 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> > wrote:

Hi This is openSUSE not Novell ;)

Yet it serves the openSUSE forum news feed. Traditionally you could get both openSUSE and Novell forums via nntp from that server.

If you go to http://forums.novell.com there is an announcement about the issue...

That page doesn't load, either. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+depYACgkQIvFNjefEBxoZ6gCdEtK//N3uDCEoJXqyKV36IEaY mKcAnik1rXbbx4ol7HZJSlqlgKTSQ5tP =b8qm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-29 19:51, Malcolm wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:29:58 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

Hi Sure, now with the splitting up, forums.novell.com, forums.suse.com and forums.opensuse.org it's more specific, hence you need to change.

Hmmm, the link works fine for me <shrug> http://paste.opensuse.org/70697491

It loads now. But an announcement that covers NNTP users has to be done via nntp, not via http only. :-/ Nobody thought of us. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+diCsACgkQIvFNjefEBxpmUACfQPrIFEK6IboEtXqHengTBUgs TX8AoI6Z5Il1PK4/Mdoe0Aop4KFaHMHb =Ocb2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-29 21:15, Malcolm wrote:

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 20:27:55 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <>

Hi I would guess that it was since it's a Novell forum issue and not the openSUSE forum.... Suggest you follow up with the Novell admins.

I did. No response. I emailed "admin@opensuse.org", which is the only published contact. It is an issue for both forums, because this server was the one that was documented for openSUSE.org when I started using it. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+dmUYACgkQIvFNjefEBxoNuACffyfBiInvzwgr+aoKL80+ysei BlcAoMSRLhMl9Lb+JiN94s9pEVgHGJSD =ffB4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:25:01 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

Malcolm wrote:

...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 19:29:58 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-04-29 16:55, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 16:43:28 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> > wrote:

...

Hi This is openSUSE not Novell ;)

Yet it serves the openSUSE forum news feed. Traditionally you could get both openSUSE and Novell forums via nntp from that server.

...

If you go to http://forums.novell.com there is an announcement about the issue...

That page doesn't load, either.

Hi Sure, now with the splitting up, forums.novell.com, forums.suse.com and forums.opensuse.org it's more specific, hence you need to change.

Just FYI, all of those are still all on a Novell network - 130.57.0.0/16.

forums.novell.com = 130.57.5.118 forums.suse.com = 130.57.5.229 forums.opensuse.org = 130.57.4.15

Sure, but the issue is with nntp access to forums.novell.com, if there where going to be issues on the nntp side of forums.opensuse.org it would be announced, hmmm lets see <scratches head> ..... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) Kernel 3.1.10-1.9-desktop up 14:53, 3 users, load average: 0.05, 0.03, 0.05 CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:48:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

It should be announced on all the feeds nntp:forums.novell.com carries, like opensuse.org.news.announcements - not only on the web page of the novell forum which is not read by openSUSE nntp users like me.

There is no excuse, they did it badly.

Yes, they did it badly. Can we get over talking about how badly the *Novell* forums' NNTP interface going down was handled on the openSUSE project list now?

Please remember that nntp:forums.novell.com was documented as the proper nntp server for openSUSE.org about two years ago, which is when I read it.

Is it still documented as such today? In any event, now you know that there is a separate address for forums.opensuse.org that you should be using for NNTP access to the openSUSE forums....I suggest using that. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 23:25:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-04-29 23:04, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

On Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:48:14 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Is it still documented as such today?

No, but obviously one is not reading the same doc several times a year. Likewise, the novell only forums are distributed by the forum.opensuse.org nntp server.

That's something you people are forgetting, that all nntp servers here carry all forums. Like the netiq and suse forums inside forum.opensuse.org.

No, I didn't forget. But it's been documented as being forums.opensuse.org since October 1, 2010. I went back and checked.

...

In any event, now you know that there is a separate address for forums.opensuse.org that you should be using for NNTP access to the openSUSE forums....I suggest using that.

I'm using that already for some hours, but that doesn't excuse not warning users of the other system, with a method they read.

I've taken your feedback to the people responsible. Given that it was changed on October 1, 2010, I don't think it's unreasonable to not post a notification that the *Novell* forums' NNTP interface was going to be offline in the openSUSE forums. But I've passed your feedback along regardless. In the future, you now know that if you experience problems, you should check to make sure you're using the proper server. While the two involved NNTP servers are used to back each other up, the intention is that openSUSE and SUSE users use forums.opensuse.org/forums.suse.com and the Novell/NetIQ users use forums.novell.com. That's why it's documented that way.

Nor it is excuse for the contact page not appearing in the search results of our search - and that is indeed a problem for this project mail list. I had to use google to find it.

Given that the change was made 2 years ago, it seems reasonable to assume that if you're accessing the *Novell* forums, you'll look on the *Novell* pages, not the openSUSE pages. But whatever. Now you know. TPTB have been informed. Have a nice day, Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 00:03:06 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

No, I didn't forget. But it's been documented as being forums.opensuse.org since October 1, 2010. I went back and checked.

Perhaps. But it has not been documented that users of the other server should migrate. And if we have to migrate, it is not enough to document, it has to be announced as well, in the media we use.

I'll see that we get a sticky posted on the openSUSE forums so those who aren't aware are aware. OK? Which forum would you suggest that be put in? When we announced the last outage, at least one user said the announcement was in "literally the last place he would have looked" (the forum announcements forum, ironically). In this instance, the address change was in the FAQ, but clearly the FAQ is the wrong place for frequently asked questions (?), because you hadn't been up there to note that the address had changed. If we post it via NNTP in a forum, then it'll be clearly visible for about 3 weeks, but as it ages, it'll fall further and further down the active threads list, until NNTP clients don't even pick it up because the messages' age is too old. So....where do you suggest we make such an announcement where we know that everyone will see it so we don't have to go through this again in 3 months? :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

...

I'll see that we get a sticky posted on the openSUSE forums so those who aren't aware are aware. OK?

That is perhaps excessive :-)

I'm confused....You seem to think it needs to be documented, but now you don't. :)

...

Which forum would you suggest that be put in? When we announced the last outage, at least one user said the announcement was in "literally the last place he would have looked" (the forum announcements forum, ironically).

The announcement group should be the right place, I think, to tell existing nntp users to make sure they are using the correct server. New users should read the faq and get the correct one first time.

What would you consider to be "the right place"? As I pointed out, we've announced things before where we thought was "the right place" but were taken to task for putting it in the "last place" someone would have thought to look for that information. You see, it seems we're hosed whatever we do - if we announce it in the wrong place, then people say "you put it in a place where I wouldn't look". If we don't, then we get taken to task for not posting it (whether we thought it was relevant or not, as is the case with the Novell forums' NNTP outage). It seems there's no way for us to "win" with this. Wherever we put it, someone's going to say we put it in the wrong place, because it's not where they would look. Indeed, we had put the proper NNTP server info in the FAQ and you've told us that that's the wrong place for it for existing NNTP users. So again, it's feeling like we can't "win" for trying. So I thought I'd ask you - since you're interested in this - where you felt it should go - what the specific "appropriate" place would be. Of course, someone else is very likely to come along and tell us that because we put it someplace *they* wouldn't have thought to go to, we got it wrong even though you will have told us the "proper" place. :)

...

In this instance, the address change was in the FAQ, but clearly the FAQ is the wrong place for frequently asked questions (?), because you hadn't been up there to note that the address had changed.

Actually, I had. But perhaps you don't remember that once I asked if I should migrate, and the answer, AFAIR, was no, no need.

Sure, it wasn't necessary, but that doesn't mean that when the Novell forums' interface is taken down that users of the non-Novell groups are going to see the announcements. I myself use both servers, with separate profiles in Pan, for the various groups. But given that you had noted that the address changed, I would have assumed/expected that you would have checked the openSUSE groups on the openSUSE server upon encountering a problem with the openSUSE groups on the Novell server.

Remember that switching nntp servers is a pain, because often it means that posts get reloaded, and the client forgets which posts were read, which replied to, etc. It is a royal pain.

Using leafnode as intermediate it has been less of a pain, but I have perhaps hundreds of duplicate mails, all have not been detected.

It can be, but a good newsreader and/or server should be able to handle duplicates appropriately, by not only using the high message indicator but also by determining if a message is a duplicate by using the Message ID (which is going to be the same regardless of what server it comes through).

...

If we post it via NNTP in a forum, then it'll be clearly visible for about 3 weeks, but as it ages, it'll fall further and further down the active threads list, until NNTP clients don't even pick it up because the messages' age is too old.

So....where do you suggest we make such an announcement where we know that everyone will see it so we don't have to go through this again in 3 months? :)

It should not happen :-)

Outages happen. That's the nature of IT. But you're avoiding my question of where *specifically* such an announcement should be put so as to reach everyone who needs to see it. We updated the address in the FAQ, but that apparently wasn't sufficient. So now if we post somewhere that those using NNTP should use forums.opensuse.org, how do we avoid the problem of another NNTP user (perhaps who has been away for 6 months) coming back in another 3 months and encountering a problem because they didn't see the notice that they should update their configuration to point to forums.opensuse.org? Or do we just wait for that to happen and then have this exact same discussion with them, with the addendum that we posted a message in a newsgroup that you specified (since he ran into this issue and we asked for your input), only to have that person tell us that we put it in "the last place they would look"?

It is enough to tell once to migrate. And perhaps add in the faq "not to use the other server".

The FAQ was changed, but when a change is done people that read it before remember what it said; thus we have to be told to forget the old info and switch servers; that's the missing info in the faq.

But if we put that in the FAQ, you've already said that you didn't go back and read the FAQ after it changed. So I'm asking you *specifically* where you think we should tell people about this so they won't miss it, regardless of when the last time they read the FAQ was or the last time they accessed the forums via NNTP was. I'd like your help in identifying "the appropriate place" so we can avoid having this discussion with someone else in a few months, because clearly when we've tried to notify users in the past, we've not done as good of a job as those users would have done themselves....So I figure it makes sense to ask one of these users who thinks they know the best way to handle this. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-04-29 17:58, Rajko M. wrote:

On Sunday, April 29, 2012 09:43:28 AM Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi,

I was searching for the list of contacts at the opensuse.org page - found nothing. Also looked terms like "out of service". No luck.

If you don't know whom to contact use admin@opensuse.org they will find right party.

Ah. But why is the contact page so hard to find? Why is the search in openSUSE so difficult? It doesn't find anything. I searched google "opensuse.org: contact" and it was the first hit. :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk+dfDcACgkQIvFNjefEBxrY8wCdG57GI9XCC0qnm7kzBXMjo1w/ EOAAoKZI1aFl/NFsemr+InMbf4wM/fT0 =bDvI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org