In data giovedì 30 marzo 2017 19:56:40 CEST, Luca Beltrame ha scritto:

As we want the Applications 17.04 release to enter beta, we had to do this in order to get a proper review in due time.

That meant "to enter Leap 42.3". -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

In data giovedì 30 marzo 2017 20:23:37 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

Use a different repo... so simple..

So simple for those who *don't* have to maintain all the KDE: repo hierarchy: - KDE:Frameworks5 - KDE:Frameworks5:LTS - KDE:Applications - KDE:Extra - KDE:Unstable:Frameworks - KDE:Unstable:Applications - KDE:Unstable:Extra - KDE:Qt5 - KDE:Unstable:Qt Plus others. Plus the effort to automate things. Granted, the burden is shared across different people, but still a lot less than the available tasks. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

On Friday, 31 March 2017 5:01:45 ACST Luca Beltrame wrote:

In data giovedì 30 marzo 2017 20:23:37 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

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Use a different repo... so simple..

So simple for those who *don't* have to maintain all the KDE: repo hierarchy:

- KDE:Frameworks5 - KDE:Frameworks5:LTS - KDE:Applications - KDE:Extra - KDE:Unstable:Frameworks - KDE:Unstable:Applications - KDE:Unstable:Extra - KDE:Qt5 - KDE:Unstable:Qt

Plus others. Plus the effort to automate things.

Granted, the burden is shared across different people, but still a lot less than the available tasks.

OK, then these repo's should all include "devel" in their names, to make it really obvious to users who've never read the web pages what they're for. For me, KDE:Applications and KDE:Extra have been a way to get packages that that are not included or kept up-to-date in the main "official" repo's. I stay away from the Unstable repo's, figuring that was where the devel releases/ nightly builds were happening. Yes, I do now use TW (and have very few problems with it) but still with KDE:Apps and KDE:Extra for certain packages. I'll just avoid doing updates for a couple of weeks... -- ============================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ============================================================== -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Il 30/03/2017 20:41, Raymond Wooninck ha scritto:

On Donnerstag, 30. März 2017 20:23:37 CEST Daniele wrote:

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If you're not using the official repos for Leap or TW you're on your own when these things occur. They've been *always* unsupported, even since before the current team. No matter if we try to make things as smooth as possible, those are *development* projects. Unsupported but stable is a thing, unsupported and alpha/beta, is another one !

Sure, but this is the actual development project for packages in Factory/TW. So in order to get a review done, we need to upload the packages here.

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Use a different repo... so simple.. I'm not going to test beta software if I cannot going back if something is broken.

If you are so concerned about stability, then why are you actually using this particular repository ? Because I found the Leap model very boring and not, TW is not a good alternative. I can risk with unsupported *but* stable release, not with unsupported *and* beta.

The "fix" is so easy.. a testing repo and we are all happy. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Il 30/03/2017 22:41, Raymond Wooninck ha scritto:

On Donnerstag, 30. März 2017 21:05:41 CEST Daniele wrote:

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Because I found the Leap model very boring and not, TW is not a good alternative. I can risk with unsupported *but* stable release, not with unsupported *and* beta.

Well, it was never stated anywhere that these repositories would only contain stable releases. We need a development repository to submit packages to TW and Leap. For this these particular repositories were created and are being used exactly for that purpose. Most of the time they will contain the latest release, however with a major version update a Beta is required to get things ready for TW.

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The "fix" is so easy.. a testing repo and we are all happy.

Sure. And I would like to propose that you are going to take care of the packages and make everyone happy. Please let me know your OBS id, so that we can assign you the rights and from that moment forward you will take care of the packaging and ensuring that all users are happy.

I don't understand.. You already have stable packages, instead of replacing them with beta release, put new packages in a beta/testing repo. When beta becomes stable, replace the old stable packages. No additional work required.. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 30. März 2017, 23:19:24 CEST schrieb Daniele:

Il 30/03/2017 22:41, Raymond Wooninck ha scritto:

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On Donnerstag, 30. März 2017 21:05:41 CEST Daniele wrote:

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Because I found the Leap model very boring and not, TW is not a good alternative. I can risk with unsupported *but* stable release, not with unsupported *and* beta.

Well, it was never stated anywhere that these repositories would only contain stable releases. We need a development repository to submit packages to TW and Leap. For this these particular repositories were created and are being used exactly for that purpose. Most of the time they will contain the latest release, however with a major version update a Beta is required to get things ready for TW.

...

The "fix" is so easy.. a testing repo and we are all happy.

Sure. And I would like to propose that you are going to take care of the packages and make everyone happy. Please let me know your OBS id, so that we can assign you the rights and from that moment forward you will take care of the packaging and ensuring that all users are happy.

I don't understand.. You already have stable packages, instead of replacing them with beta release, put new packages in a beta/testing repo. When beta becomes stable, replace the old stable packages. No additional work required..

You just described Tumbleweed. Cheers, Fabian

Daniele.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

* Daniele [03-31-17 13:18]:

Il 31/03/2017 08:52, Fabian Vogt ha scritto:

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You just described Tumbleweed.

Cheers, Fabian . It's ok for selected software, non for the whole distro.

and that is "opinion". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 31 March 2017 20:59:05 CEST Daniele wrote:

Il 31/03/2017 20:13, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:

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* Daniele [03-31-17 13:18]:

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Il 31/03/2017 08:52, Fabian Vogt ha scritto:

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You just described Tumbleweed.

Cheers, Fabian

. It's ok for selected software, non for the whole distro.

and that is "opinion".

Sure, only my opinion but looking at factory ML, often there's something broken/half working with TW.

yes, you are right. And there are many ways to help with that, e.g. * ensure upstream plasma is more stable * implement automatic tests for the KDE OBS repos * extend existing tests for Tumbleweed, e.g. on openqa.opensuse.org * and many others -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

In data venerdì 31 marzo 2017 21:22:16 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

The main point of this thread was that I think that is wrong to mix in a repo stable release with beta.

Those who do the work, decide. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team GPG key ID: A29D259B

Il 31/03/2017 21:34, Fabian Vogt ha scritto:

Am Freitag, 31. März 2017, 21:28:42 CEST schrieb Luca Beltrame:

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In data venerdì 31 marzo 2017 21:22:16 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

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The main point of this thread was that I think that is wrong to mix in a repo stable release with beta.

Those who do the work, decide. Well, no doubt about it but, general speaking, I would listen who should benefit from my work.

Yes, but it's also not wrong to suggest improvements to the process :-)

In my opinion a separate repo for stable releases only does not make much sense, as for tumbleweed it gets submitted anyway when it's ready and for Leap newer Apps require newer parts of the stack as well, so you basically have TW there. Additionally, a beta release will inevitably become a stable release, so testing is required. If you encounter issues while using the beta, we'll have a look at it like with any other bug report. Make sure to make it obvious in the bug report though.

Yes but what if $FOO is broken and I need $FOO working ? Give me a valid fallback (previuos stable release) and I would happy to test beta release. Now, one tester less. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Il 31/03/2017 22:22, Luca Beltrame ha scritto:

In data venerdì 31 marzo 2017 22:14:26 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

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Yes but what if $FOO is broken and I need $FOO working ? Give me a valid fallback (previuos stable release) and I would happy to test beta

Again, you added those repositories knowing they were unsupported, didn't you? Again, unsupported stable != unsupported beta. With stable it's a calculated risk.

It's not like we *want* to break things, but (seldomly, thanks to both upstream now adopting a CI build system and our own work with openQA in Unstable*) it happens every now and then. For example, prior to the beta, we had breakage in KDE:Qt5 when the first singlespec Python packages landed there.

P.S.: Putting the 5.8 Plasma beta prior to the Leap release in a development project uncovered all sorts of bugs before they hit final users (some truly bad ones were also fixed by the KDE team members[1]). Great but development project shold be in a different repo ;) It's doable ? Fine. It is not ? Fine. Nothing more to say for me.

Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday, 31 March 2017 23:57:25 CEST Todd Rme wrote:

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:44 PM, Daniele wrote:

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Il 31/03/2017 22:22, Luca Beltrame ha scritto:

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In data venerdì 31 marzo 2017 22:14:26 CEST, Daniele ha scritto:

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Yes but what if $FOO is broken and I need $FOO working ? Give me a valid fallback (previuos stable release) and I would happy to test beta

Again, you added those repositories knowing they were unsupported, didn't you?

Again, unsupported stable != unsupported beta. With stable it's a calculated risk.

...

It's not like we *want* to break things, but (seldomly, thanks to both upstream now adopting a CI build system and our own work with openQA in Unstable*) it happens every now and then. For example, prior to the beta, we had breakage in KDE:Qt5 when the first singlespec Python packages landed there.

P.S.: Putting the 5.8 Plasma beta prior to the Leap release in a development project uncovered all sorts of bugs before they hit final users (some truly bad ones were also fixed by the KDE team members[1]).

Great but development project shold be in a different repo ;) It's doable ? Fine. It is not ? Fine. Nothing more to say for me.

As others have said, it is doable, but someone would need to do it. Development, by definition, happens in a devel repository. So someone would need to maintain a second repository where they manually cherry-pick every change from the devel repository. There just isn't time for the existing KDE team to do that, it would almost double their workload.

You don't have to do this. The only thing you have to do is provide a backup repository. Copy everything from the original repository to the backup repository, update the packages in the original repository with the beta packages, and keep the backup repository around for only a couple of weeks in case there is a serious problem and people need to do a fallback. This provides people with a fallback possibility and also saves the KDE team a lot of work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Il 31/03/2017 22:35, Patrick Shanahan ha scritto:

odd, been using Tw since Greg KH first defined it and seldom have anywhere near the problems I see described for Leap XX

I was waiting for this kind of post.. but there are dozens of post on factory ML about not working thigs after new snapshot.. Oh, for me it's understandable... Leap, lots of small issue here and there that I never had in the past. I could say that *for me* it's the worst release since the Rug disaster but this is another story :) Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Donnerstag, 30. März 2017 20:50:54 CEST Mathias Homann wrote:

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As we want the Applications 17.04 release to enter beta, we had to do this in order to get a proper review in due time.

and doing that inside KDE:Unstable:* would not have been an option instead of doing it inside the repositories that are used by end users to get the latest RELEASED Plasma and KDE Apps?

The wikipage regarding the KDE Repositories clearly state that the KDE:Unstable:* repos are contain git snapshots of the master branches. As that a Beta RELEASE is not a git snapshot, the beta shouldn't go in there. The page also clearly states that this repository would contain the latest releases and a beta RELEASE is still a release.